Goodreads Librarians Group discussion
Questions (not edit requests)
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Once again about page numbering for ebooks
Mod
Second preference: If the ebook is a fixed-page format (which PDF certainly is and ePUB is supposed to be), then from the ebook itself.
After that, it gets sticky.
rivka, thank you for the answer.I'll be looking on a publisher website, but as you said they often leave a page field also blank for an ebook.
Do you know a way or some program which I can use to calculate page number for ePUB (if it is supposed to be fixed-paged)? In my reader the number is too big and changes.
And the question for other situations remains.. (
Mod
Sorry, no idea.
Lena wrote: "rivka, thank you for the answer.I'll be looking on a publisher website, but as you said they often leave a page field also blank for an ebook.
Do you know a way or some program which I can use to..."
I don't think there's an "accepted" standard for words per page. Even that depends on size of font and other factors. But, I've seen a few ebook listings from places like Smashwords- that don't do page counts, I guess(?)- that put the number of words in the description. I know that doesn't solve the page number issue that you're having. The other thing you could do is just use the GR default version for your page count. In many ways, that's probably a more accurate rendering of page count than even an ebook version. I've had ebooks have page counts 50% or more lower than the GR default version- even though the copy was in PDF, you can put as many page turns be a "real" page in a ebook.
Shay wrote: "The other thing you could do is just use the GR default version for your page count"By GR you mean this site? How can I know which edition is considered as a default?
Shay wrote: "Lena wrote: "rivka, thank you for the answer.I'll be looking on a publisher website, but as you said they often leave a page field also blank for an ebook.
Do you know a way or some program which..."
Easiest way of giving eBooks a page number (I think people should only do this if there is no other way to find the number. Also only if you have the book.) Open up the file in FBReader or Adobe Digital Editions and use that. I would, however, only use this if not having the page number really bothers you.
Lena wrote: "Shay wrote: "The other thing you could do is just use the GR default version for your page count"By GR you mean this site? How can I know which edition is considered as a default?"
If you input the title in the search field or with the "add book/author" link over the comment box, the GR default edition is the first one that comes up. I read a lot of ebooks and it seems like the page count is usually significantly lower in an ebook. I don't know why. When it's more accuate- close to the page count of the real book, it seems like it's always higher. (Why higher? It's usually the page count of the "real" book edition released at the same time plus pages for the cover, the chapter listings, etc. In other words, the real page count+ all of the stuff in a real book that's usually not numbered.)
lafon wrote: "Open up the file in FBReader or Adobe Digital Editions and use that. I would, however, only use this if not having the page number really bothers you."What bothers me is that it's hard to tell the length of an ebook while looking on its profile. And that zero breaks stats ))
In FBReader the number is 3/4 of Hardcover and 3/5 of Paperback )) But it's fixed, so I can use it if other people won't mind ) But it is very debatable..
Shay, what would you choose? The number of pages from the GP default version or the lower, but probably more accurate number from FBReader? For example, in my reader the page count is much more closer to FBReader calculation, than to printed editions (I have fixed number in my reader, not depending on font size, etc).
I wouldn't compare print to digital. For example one of George R.R. Martin's books has 830 or so pages in print, but the digital edition has almost 200 more. (This was provided by the publishers.) As such the difference between print and digital is huge.
Lena wrote: "Shay, what would you choose? The number of pages from the GP default version or the lower, but probably more accurate number from FBReader? For example, in my reader the page count is much more clo..."I usually go with the GR default book instead of the ebook. Unless it has a different cover, which bothers me more than the page count. The reason is that I want an overall feel of how much I read in a year and no matter how accurate an ebook page count is, it's not "really" accurate. In other words, I could put in an actual page count of an ebook in PDF or ePub, but length of those pages is kind of meaningless. (I know it can be 50% off from the real book) So, even though the ebook page count is accurate and I've personally verified it, because they can make those ebook pages however long they want, is it really a measure of how long a book is? I don't think so. Especially in a long book- where I have a physical copy of 1000+ pages and an ebook of 700 pages. I mean, in a technical sense, they could just condense a 1000 page book into ebook of 100 pages. But, if you used the ebook page count, wouldn't you feel kind of ripped off in your yearly totals?
lafon wrote: "I wouldn't compare print to digital. For example one of George R.R. Martin's books has 830 or so pages in print, but the digital edition has almost 200 more. (This was provided by the publishers.) ..."Yeah, that's true.. You are definitely right. I just try to decide which path to take, because this decision will affect some other people on GR, reading the same books, and I don't want to make any fuss.
I would really like if Librarians or GR workers develop some strategy for this matter, but I haven't found it here yet.
I think it depends what you're using it for. If you want an accurate count for your stats, to challenge yourself, etc., then I would go with using the GR default version. But, I still try and correct the ebook copies if I have an epub or PDF.
Shay wrote: "But, I still try and correct the ebook copies if I have an epub or PDF."Where do you look for number of pages in epub? I have some, but the count depends on a reader.. :) Maybe I use wrong readers )))
Shay, your explanation is a bit discouraging )) But I get it. Thank you! It's just sad not to be able to use a good feature :)So I'll stick with a GR default book, I think. From the beginning I liked the idea to use printed version for page count but couldn't decide which format. Now I know to use a "default" )))
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rivka wrote: "Not to be a troublemaker, but the default book can change, as more users shelve another edition. Then what?"Is a default book just a projection of the most popular edition?? (( Hmmm... I thought it's at least the first major print or something.
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Lena wrote: "Shay wrote: "But, I still try and correct the ebook copies if I have an epub or PDF."Where do you look for number of pages in epub? I have some, but the count depends on a reader.. :) Maybe I use..."
If you use ADE (Adobe digital editions), it's near the top. In my ereader, I have a Nook, it's at the bottom. I've checked and no matter which of those two I use, the page count stays the same. It has to because the book syncs between the two.
Lena wrote: "rivka wrote: "Not to be a troublemaker, but the default book can change, as more users shelve another edition. Then what?"Is a default book just a projection of the most popular edition?? (( Hmmm..."
Yes, it's the one that's been shelved the most times.
rivka wrote: "Not to be a troublemaker, but the default book can change, as more users shelve another edition. Then what?"I just keep it with the edition I've shelved. I've noticed that most people aren't meticulous about shelving a particular edition- I think if the cover matches they go with it- so most of the time the default edition gets shelved by a wide margin. So, I've rarely gone back and seen a change- when I've had a default edition change is usually on a newer release and it'll change from a "real" book to an ebook or an audio.
Oh, and Lena, if the default is an ebook, then I just go to the first "real" book edtion.
rivka wrote: "First preference: an official page count for the ebook from the publisher. This is sometimes, but not always available.Second preference: If the ebook is a fixed-page format (which PDF certainly ..."
The publisher does not post the correct page number for an ePub eBook. What they use is a age number from some print edition which is always incorrect. So when dealing with the page number for an ePub eBook, please do not take the publisher printed page number (for the eBook's listing) as correct.
In the following thread, One of the librarians is not fixing the page number as I requested because he is going by the incorrect page number the published put with the eBook listing. But I did put in a link to the screen grab to show that the page number the publisher displayed is incorrect.
Please have a look at that thread and you will see that I am correct.
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
I disagree. Default editions are not always the most popular editions. Authors can set. If authors do not specify, the most popular is used.
JsWolf's screenshot is from Adobe Digital Editions software. An ereader app. Not a goodreads librarian or other official standard (granted, Adobe very much involved in developing ePub format).
one of commonly used ebook formats, ePub, official information/standards are at http://idpf.org/epub/30/spec/epub30-o... . The epub format does NOT belong to the ADE software.
These threads, manuals and Rivka all say we are supposed to use publisher page numbers when available.
All epub format files (whether pulled into ADE or not) do not necessarily have real page numbers. EPub allows publisher/ author to use what they call a "fixed format" standard and if they do, then you do get page numbers that stay fixed regardless of ereader, app or software like ADE. If. And, if EPub version 3, the spine and pagenum coding sets are very good at establishing fixed/standard formats.
nook from day one for some file formats showed what looked like page numbers-not necessarily really are. Nook just took that route instead of locations, percentages, or screens like other devices/apps. If you are viewing nook native pubit or epub book/file format, maybe it is complying with the epub fixed format and maybe not. Again, "if."
Most ebook publishers and retailers, including Barnes and Noble nook and amazon kindle, are headed towards the new fixed format paging. Not all there yet so not in all books. No promises on bactracking to reconfigure older books (and not sure how many of the self-published do or don't use the fixed formats).
Where present, the publisher's number of pages is a device/app independent "official" source available to all members and librarians. To my knowledge, that's the only common standard source. Otherwise we can spend hours re-entering new page counts every time someone downloads various files to assorted devices.
Publishers and other organizations generally accept that a page averages 450 words if you have that from smashwords. A couple of example links about word counts http://www.oup.com/us/corporate/propo... (uses most common 450) and more involved leading to 400 words per page count at http://www.writersservices.com/wps/p_... . As near as I can tell, pretty much varies by publisher.
(Thinking way back for some of us, the typewritten doublespaced schoolwork writings averaged 200-250 words per page; ditto for handwritten and some teachers were strict enough to consider a word as every 5 characters....) At this time, goodreads doesn't do hours for audio books, word counts, ereader locations or file sizes, just pages. And most word counts at smashwords are machine done and appear to literally count the words regardless of word size (I say appear, I did not go through a whole book manually counting 5 character increments and I suspect smashwords and their authors likely use word count algorithm software like found in MS Word).
I really do not want to ditch the publisher page count and get caught up into endlessly changing an ebook's page numbers.
JSWolf wrote: "rivka wrote: "...One of the librarians is not fixing the page number as I requested because he is going by the incorrect page number the published put with the eBook listing. ..."No sir. He's not changing because against goodreads policy for their database and that's reason enough under the site TOS. Plus, I have that same book/file and it does not adhere to ePub fixed format page numbers. Not in the epub from publisher nor nook nor kindle (household of Trekkies here for the holidays so yes I am able to check out all legally available ebook formats).
I'm really having a lot of trouble with the attempts at ADE being made into a standard for ebooks. It's one way to read certain formats of ebooks. No issues with ADE myself, I use, and public libraries very fond of. Doesn't = standard. If it did = standard would still not = goodreads policy until Rivka stepped in and changed (and that big a change would no doubt go into the librarian manual).
How many times does Rivka keep having to reiterate that the publisher page numbers when available would be used?
[signing out of goodreads to finish watching the Star Trek TNG marathon on BBCAmerica with company and read the new book during commercials or pauses...]
I'm with Lena, wanting to know page numbers for stats. In one of the groups, its been agreed to log a hardcover for an audiobook. So, for tracking purposes, I may just log the closest paper copy and put it on an ebook shelf. I thought i saw someplace to go by the book in hand, matching the ISBN, but I guess it doesn't apply to ebooks.
Debbie (Debbie Rice) wrote: "JSWolf wrote: "rivka wrote: "...One of the librarians is not fixing the page number as I requested because he is going by the incorrect page number the published put with the eBook listing. ..."..."
ADE is not becoming the standard for ePub because it already is the standard for ePub. ADE uses page numbers that doesn't change based on the number of screen changes or font size. It's a fixed page number based on the file.
There were discussions before in the librarian group where it was decided to allow the page number for ePub as it's a fixed number like with PDF. It doesn't change.
What the publisher displays for eBook listing is WRONG as it's a print number, not the ePub number.
I want correct page numbers so I can use it for the stats. By forcing an incorrect page number against the eBook listing, you invalidate the stats for a lot of people.
no, the publishers tie a certain print edition (formatting etc) to ebook editions - so those are accurate page counts
@JsWolf, I have never heard (even from Adobe press releases) that ADE is the standard. I really think you need to share some links to the documentation saying ADE is the standard.I'll save you some time hunting on the Adobe site and quote what Adobe says about their software: "Digital Editions also supports industry-standard eBook formats, including PDF/A and EPUB." — source http://www.adobe.com/products/digital...
As to it always showing same number of pages, for most file formats so do nook and other readers. Not industry standard page numbers, ones the device/app adheres to unless file has fixed format paging.
Some ePub files do offer device/app-independent fixed format page numbers in which case we can accept page count from within the file when publisher page count unavailable. But not acceptable to say the ADE software is the standard.
I'll stick with the industry standards I know and that ADE supports.
A page count of 100+ pages less than a print version is hard to swallow. More can be common if you count more than just the actual story pages, particularly with assorted previews, forewards, afterwards, author notes, ads, etc. books and ebooks get packed with. Plus the occasional book extras for one format or another.
But I would start to suspect that something was not even the same distinct work if the actual story pages differed that much. Or that the ebook was just being read in different software, apps or devices that were not pulling fixed page numbering and instead using their own internal page numbering.
Debbie (Debbie Rice) wrote: "A page count of 100+ pages less than a print version is hard to swallow.Here's a good example of page number differences...
Take the book Voyager by Diana Gabaldon...
The MMPB has 1072 pages
http://www.amazon.com/Voyager-Outland...
The Hardcover has 880 pages
http://www.amazon.com/Voyager-Diana-G...
So is this hard to swallow because there is a 192 page difference? Same story, same words, different formats. It's not uncommon for different formats to have different page numbers.
yes and your examples - the Hardcover is significantly larger in physical size than the MMPB (I own them both)...it is a strawman's argument
ADE is the standard because in order to be able to purchase ePub with DRM, you NEED to use ADE because only ADE supports the DRM used. So if I was to buy an eBook from say Simon & Schuster, I would have to have ADE otherwise, I could not download the ePub because of the DRM. ADE is used on more readers then any other ePub reading software. ADE is required by Overdrive in order to borrow ePub from the library. ADE is in more places then any other ePub reading software. It's the most used software to read ePub. ePub eBooks are made to be compatible with Mobile ADE. Given all of this, how can ADE not be the standard for ePub?
because I can go to allromanceebooks and buy a book in the epub format and not have to use ADE to read the bookADE is a vehicle to read DRM'd epub books, it is not a format unto itself
JSWolf wrote: "ADE is the standard because in order to be able to purchase ePub with DRM, you NEED to use ADE because only ADE supports the DRM used. So if I was to buy an eBook from say Simon & Schuster, I would..."Jon, ADE is not the "standard" for ePub. In fact, you know very well that .epub has no standard. So stop trying to argue the point. It's a dead horse. Make do like everyone else.
MrsJoseph wrote: "JSWolf wrote: "ADE is the standard because in order to be able to purchase ePub with DRM, you NEED to use ADE because only ADE supports the DRM used. So if I was to buy an eBook from say Simon & Sc..."ADE is the most wildly used software for reading ePub. Publishers make their ePub work with ADE. ADE is needed for ePub with DRM. ADE is the standard for reading ePub.
I use the overdrive app to read epub books directly from the public library myself and do not have to use ADE. (Yes, the very first nook I bought and one of my really old mobi readers did download library books via ADE but that was nearly a decade ago and all my other ereaders and ereader apps downloaded directly or directly thru overdrive without requiring ADE even back then.)
Gee, come to think of it when I buy ePub directly from Simon and Schuster , Smashwords or Baen books on the iPad it just asks what I want to open the book with (iBooks, nook app, overdrive, etc.) so I never even thought about ADE as part of the process. It has certainly never been a requirement to read the purchased books. And Adobe DRM protected ePub file formats are exactly what Barnes and Noble uses for ebooks (including "nook" books) and those just load directly to nook, again, without having to have ADE in the process. Ditto for Sony, Google Play, kobo, and the other major ereader players—none of them require ADE in order to purchase DRM or non-DRM books.
JSWolf wrote: "ADE is the most wildly used software for reading ePub. Publishers make their ePub work with ADE. ADE is needed for ePub with DRM. ADE is the standard for reading ePub. "Ice cream sells 50% more on days that it is 100 degrees or higher outside. Bank robberies happen with 50% more frequency when it's 100 degrees or higher outside. Therefore, all bank robbers eat ice cream.
JSWolf wrote: "MrsJoseph wrote: "JSWolf wrote: "ADE is the standard because in order to be able to purchase ePub with DRM, you NEED to use ADE because only ADE supports the DRM used. So if I was to buy an eBook f..."Staff has already stepped in on this and made the rules known, it is not changing just because you say that ADE is the standard. Your opinion does not equal fact. I read plenty of ebooks, most of them say 0 pages...so I use percentage based on the page numbers in my Nook. If stats are that important to you, then keep a log in another program.
And I download plenty of ebooks and rarely use ADE to read it. So this standard you speak of is entirely inaccurate. I suggest just getting over it, clearly it is not going to change and you've been beating this dead horse so long it's nothing more than a bloody smear in the dirt.
I think I see one spot on internet where JsWolf might be misunderstanding/misquoting standards. His most recent page numbering post on a specific book was a Simon and Schuster (Pocket Books) and "Adobe DRM" is displayed by book and a portion of their instructions do mention ADE as one method of reading their downloaded ePub files in addition to directions for getting the same books into other devices and apps. He may not have read further or tried the files in other apps and devices once ADE worked for him.Plus like most publishers in addition to direct sales their books, including ePub format ebooks, are available at major bookstores and booksellers like amazon and Barnes and Noble. The directions for ADE not the only directions and they do not anywhere say it is required or standard (they do, like most publishers, use ePub format with Adobe DRM standards; but, the use of Adobe DRM is a completely different topic/standard from the ADE software which is in no way required to access Adobe DRM files).
If anyone wants to read the instructions from Simon and Schuster, only a part of which suggest ADE (and frankly I suspect that's more because is a freely available software not device dependent [consumers with a device likely to just order from that device versus directly from publisher] and because ADE is very good for managing ebook libraries if you buy directly from a lot of different publishers; again, not because it is required or standard ) -- Simon and Schuster epub file reading/downloading directions are at http://www.simonandschuster.biz/ebook...
Not all readers get ebook/ePub files directly from the publishers. I don't have those statistics; but, suspect likely to purchase from major online booksellers or directly from ereader apps and devices. So not sure how on earth it would be a standard even if this particular publisher said so.
Debbie (Debbie Rice) wrote: "I think I see where JsWolf is misunderstanding/misquoting standards. His most recent page numbering post on a specific book was a Simon and Schuster (Pocket Books) and a portion of their instructi..."These other devices/apps use a version of ADE otherwise S&S's eBooks would not work since they have DRM. ADE is the only ePub reading software that supports DRM. It's built into a lot of readers and some apps such as Bluefire Reader (that works with iOS and Android). SO when S&S is giving instructions for other devices/apps, those devices/apps are using ADE.
ADE does not equal Adobe DRM protection on ePub files and not required anywhere in the process. According to Adobe and Adobe Digital Editions, epub DRM is specifically supported by these devices/platforms: http://blogs.adobe.com/digitalpublish... in case anyone needs to know if their ereader will download an Adobe DRM ePub file and how (yes, before JSWolf sees "ADE" and jumps in saying that supports his point, it does says can be directly downloaded or downloaded via ADE software but not that ADE is required or standard).
Google Play, incidentally also uses Adobe DRM ePub and does not require the use of ADE software. Hmmm...the ADE website has this to say http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/press... and very strongly emphasiszes that Adobe DRM ePub is a cross-platform (that is, does not require a particular platform, software [like ADE], browser, etc. in order to use the files) file format.Why would they do that if ADE was supposed to be required versus being truly cross-platform?
ADE is not the "standard" for .epub because .epub has no standard. Jon knows this...he's just being difficult because he wants the page numbers he has to show. Selfish.Fact is, my Sony reader and Jon's Sony reader have different page counts (from each other) quite often. So there goes his theory. .ePub has no standard...which is the reason Kobo, Sony, Google Play AND iBooks all can have "different" flavors of .ePub and .ePub DRM.
iBooks does not count because it is non-standard and the code it uses can be non-standard as well. iBooks does not matter. It's so far from standard that it may as well no even exist.As far as page numbers go, every version of ADE uses the same page numbering. I've seen this on every version of ADE Sony has used on a 500, 505, 600, 700, 950, 650, T1, all the different versions of ADE for Windows and Bluefire Reader for iOS. All have the exact same page number. So please, don't try to say (incorrectly I might add) that ADE gives a different page numbers for different versions. It doesn't.
Scott wrote: "GoodReads really ought to eliminate the page count for e-books since it is basically meaningless unless you want to assume a physical edition (if there is one) is the correct count. File size is a..."file size isn't actually that good of an indicator either - because that depends on hidden mark-up in formatting, are pictures used etc - all of that increases the size of the files
Debbie (Debbie Rice) wrote: "Google Play, incidentally also uses Adobe DRM ePub and does not require the use of ADE software. Hmmm...the ADE website has this to say http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/press......"I think you've misread that. Adobe® Reader® Mobile software development kit (SDK) is ADE. It's the mobile version of ADE that is used in apps, and software on a number of readers.
http://blogs.adobe.com/digitalpublish...
That link is a list of a number of apps/devices that use ADE. It is not all all inclusive list but it does show the broad scope of how much ADE is used. It is the mode widely used software for displaying ePub. No other software is as widely used. If you (or anyone else) can come up with a list of software that's even close to as used for reading ePub, please I'd like to know. Given how much ADE is used, there's no way it's not the standard for reading ePub.
either way - you are missing the point - GR staff has weighed in (rivka - who you were extremely rude to FWIW) - and said the ADE is NOT to be used for calculating pages - you can argue all you want, but the decision has been made and librarians are going to adhere to it because we value our privleges
JSWolf wrote: "iBooks does not count because it is non-standard and the code it uses can be non-standard as well. iBooks does not matter. It's so far from standard that it may as well no even exist.As far as pa..."
Not true.
But I noticed you trying to toss out all the .epubs that don't fit what you want to be your "standard."
iBooks IS .epub.
Why do I want to fill in this field and don't like the idea to left it empty? Because of "Stats" feature on goodreads :) It shows you the longest and shortest book you've read along with a total page count by years. It's encouraging and just right ))
So there is a question. What number of pages should I use for ebooks? It could be a value from a printed book, but should I use Hardcover, Paperback, or Mass Market? Or is there some kind of formula to calculate pages from words count? I know that all of this methods are approximate but it's better than zero!
And I think that a general way for this matter should be added to the librarian manual.