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Rants: OT & OTT > Smashwords Bans Certain Erotica Catagories?

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message 1: by K.A. (last edited Feb 25, 2012 06:08PM) (new)

K.A. Jordan (kajordan) | 3042 comments http://www.smashwords.com/press/relea...

There appears to be a huge debate going on - Paypal has requested that Smashwords tighten it's terms of service to exclude popular erotica categories including bestiality, rape, incest and psuedo-incest.

http://www.kindleboards.com/index.php...

"Today we are modifying our Terms of Service to clarify our policies regarding erotic fiction that contains bestiality, rape and incest. If you write in any of these categories, please carefully read the instructions below and remove such content from Smashwords. If you don’t write in these categories, you can disregard this message."

Interesting debate - I doubt many Robust members are affected, however, you never know.


message 2: by K.A. (new)

K.A. Jordan (kajordan) | 3042 comments Looks like Bookstrand is doing much the same thing:

http://www.kindleboards.com/index.php...

Gee - am I the only one not crying a river of tears over this?


message 3: by Patricia (new)

Patricia (patriciasierra) | 2388 comments I guess this means I can't sell my memoirs.


message 4: by K.A. (new)

K.A. Jordan (kajordan) | 3042 comments You beast...


message 5: by Patricia (last edited Feb 25, 2012 06:53PM) (new)

Patricia (patriciasierra) | 2388 comments To get an idea of what they're talking about, follow the link -- then click the box next to "covers" (upper right corner) so you can see these works of art at their finest (but hurry, because these are just the current offerings and there's no telling what will be posted in a few hours):

http://us.kogrid.com/


message 6: by K.A. (new)

K.A. Jordan (kajordan) | 3042 comments Whatever that was - it crashed IE...must be some bad stuff.


message 7: by K.A. (new)

K.A. Jordan (kajordan) | 3042 comments Ohh - well - hmmm - can't say we are going to miss any of those literary 'treasures' if they have to be taken down.


message 8: by Patricia (new)

Patricia (patriciasierra) | 2388 comments So IE recovered? It's not a bad site. It's where the day's freebies are listed.


message 9: by K.A. (new)

K.A. Jordan (kajordan) | 3042 comments IE didn't like all the pictures. There were too many and it locked up.


message 10: by Patricia (new)

Patricia (patriciasierra) | 2388 comments The erotica books are blocked on one of the freebie sites I visit, unless you specifically request to see them. I've never read any of these books so I don't know what, if any, literary merit they have -- though I can guess. The problem with the blanket ban on certain topics is that it could keep a "real" book from being sold.


message 11: by Claudine (new)

Claudine | 1110 comments Mod
As long as the human race continues to be physically intimate with others, erotica will be around. I don't know, some of those tags like rape, incest and bestiality I can understand not wanting any of that content on your site. However, this just smacks of censorship to me.

What about a classic like Lolita? Is that or Lady Chatterley's Lover for instance or any of the books written around that same time period with similar themes now considered smut and not to be sold?

Sorry, there's an ongoing porn debate here at the moment. A cable tv company was just told that their application for a pay per view hardcore porn channel was turned down by our broadcast licensing agency. Yet, adult shops are still able to sell questionable content.

I love Kogrid! I have noticed though that more and more of the daily free offerings on Amazon are "erotica" (read utter rubbish). I find it amusing, the titles.


message 12: by K.A. (new)

K.A. Jordan (kajordan) | 3042 comments It strikes me as ironic - the 'erotica' writers who pour out this swill are the only ones screaming 'foul' about the ban.

I suspect a lot of readers are taking a huge, secret, sigh of relief.

On B&N in particular it's nearly impossible to find a good 'sweet romance' because of all the 'erotica.' I have turned my Nook over to my husband because I've gotten frustrated with all the crap.

He's becoming a Bob Mayer fan.

Bookstrand and All Romance are both cleaning house.


message 13: by K.A. (last edited Feb 26, 2012 07:24AM) (new)

K.A. Jordan (kajordan) | 3042 comments Andre has a post on the subject.

http://coolmainpress.com/ajwriting/ar...


message 14: by Andre Jute (new)

Andre Jute (andrejute) | 4851 comments Mod
For a non-hysterical answer to the question "Is the Paypal/Smashwords 'banning' of rape, incest and bestiality #censorship?" see Andre Jute's blog Kissing the Blarney. http://coolmainpress.com/ajwriting/ar...


message 15: by J.A. (last edited Feb 26, 2012 11:25AM) (new)

J.A. Beard (jabeard) Andre does make some pretty persuasive points. His entry helps crystallize a lot of things I've been thinking about over this issue.

I get leery on some level of the whole Paypal calling the shots thing, but this isn't the door to the Politburo approving all books things that a lot of people are making it out to be, nor as it even any concerted anti-indie attack.

I thought about chiming in on the KB thread, but it kind of jumped the shark about the time where people started implying that this was some sort of Tinker, Soldier, Sailor, Spy-level intrigue on Amazon's part to manipulate the pay vendor of their business enemies to, uh, what, capture the fringe extreme erotica niche markets to itself?

Andre,

What were the circumstances of you moving over freedom of speech issues?


message 16: by K.A. (new)

K.A. Jordan (kajordan) | 3042 comments JA - unless you have a hidden desire to be burnt at the stake - stay away from the Kindleboards threads. They are looking for a target for their wrath. :-)

Mark Coker is between a rock and a hard place - he has my empathy - but he's doing the right thing. He doesn't need a lawsuit and I suspect this is what Pay Pal is trying to avoid.


message 17: by J.A. (last edited Feb 26, 2012 12:03PM) (new)

J.A. Beard (jabeard) Oh, I've read the whole thread, K.A. I don't bother with most contentious KB threads.

I have a standing policy of not engaging in internet discussion unless I feel it's going to accomplish anything (my one major misstep in that regards in the infamous lending discussion kind of proof of why I should trust my instincts in that regard). A lot of KB discussions seem to swallow up nuance in yelling (and often conspiracy mongering).

I'm a 100% freedom of speech abolutist in the sense of ability to produce content, but I certainly don't feel that applies to commercial vendors though having to distribute everything.

I understand people's frustration with the rules being changed mid-stream, but that's just kind of the nature of selling anything in general.


message 18: by K.A. (new)

K.A. Jordan (kajordan) | 3042 comments I stopped reading after the first page or so - when they get all indignant I tune them out - just like the trolls on Amazon fora.

I have a standing policy against novels with rape scenes. Rape isn't entertainment. I didn't read 'bodice rippers' when they were popular, either.

I spent too many years trying help women over-come the real thing to let it pass in novels without some kind of protest.


message 19: by J.A. (last edited Feb 26, 2012 04:17PM) (new)

J.A. Beard (jabeard) There are some legitimate concerns and points being raised in the thread. I just think all the slippery slope yelling and conspiracy mongering is drowning it out.


message 20: by Patricia (new)

Patricia (patriciasierra) | 2388 comments Rape may not be entertainment, but it might well be crucial to the telling of a story.

I was jumped on a bit by a group of feminists who didn't like my having written some serial killer books (because of the violence to women). That violence could have been left out, but then the stories wouldn't have been what I set out to write.


message 21: by K.A. (new)

K.A. Jordan (kajordan) | 3042 comments There is a difference between Killer Thriller and Erotica - well, I should THINK there is.


message 22: by Patricia (new)

Patricia (patriciasierra) | 2388 comments Depends on the story.


message 23: by Andre Jute (new)

Andre Jute (andrejute) | 4851 comments Mod
Jeremy: It's a long story. Nothing about it is simple. Everything has to be explained. Maybe it will be in my memoirs.


message 24: by Claudine (new)

Claudine | 1110 comments Mod
Kat, I do agree with you about rape just for the sake of titilation. However, when dealt with sensitively, as part of a broader story, it has it's merits. Few authors can get it right though without turning it into something that is either trivialised or turned into a pornfest.

I still think this is a form of censorship. Paypal and Smashwords are denying people the right to author (questionable) works that they can publish for a profit on Smashwords. They are therefore censoring their site. Entirely their right mind you and I don't have any issue with it. Hustler and Playboy would be better suited as sales mediums perhaps.

However, I do have a problem with Paypal. They are notorious for using their clout to force people to do what they want. I am involved with another website where once a year for the last three years there has been a community drive to generate funds for those less fortunate through a donation scheme or where moms working from home donated items (mostly handsewn or handmade items) for sale, the proceeds then being paid into the Paypal account and distributed to families anonymously. The first year Paypal was quite happy to accept donations into the account that was set up, they were more than happy to process the entire fundraiser and approved it all upfront before the account was set up. The second year they froze the account and have refused to release the money back to those who donated. Last year we didn't have the fundraiser. They effectively shut down a community driven project for no apparent reason. Oh sure they said we overstepped their terms and conditions but how on earth could we have done that when they initially approved it?

IMO, I think any issue that has to do with a woman's body, her enjoyment of sex and the abuse of a woman sexually are touchy subjects. Women are either treated as whores or the Madonna. There is no inbetween.

While some of the erotica on offer these days on Amazon and Smashwords (I've sampled some of the more daring titles recently due to the Smashwords debate) is definately right there alongside Debbie Does Dallas, some of it isn't badly written. While I wouldn't purchase any that I have sampled, I wouldn't want to tell a friend of mine who lives for erotica that she cannot buy it. She's old enough to censor herself.


message 25: by Sharon (last edited Feb 27, 2012 09:17AM) (new)

Sharon Tillotson (storytellerauthor) | 1802 comments Patricia wrote: "Depends on the story."

That is true, but I think here we are talking about rape as erotica. Anyone anywhere should have as much right in choosing what they sell as a writer has in writing it.

No one is taking away the right of authors to write their crap, of whatever ilk. But that does not give them the 'right' to publish wherever they want. As with anything else, their 'work' is open to vetting, not only by the seller but also by the purchaser. You can't sell your violent erotica on Smashwords? Go find the sources where you can. Smashwords does not owe you the right to distribute your work there.

Sounds like a business opportunity - for someone...


message 26: by Patricia (new)

Patricia (patriciasierra) | 2388 comments I agree, Sharon. I was one who supported Amazon when they withdrew the pedophilia books. They should have to sell them simply because they were written.


message 27: by K.A. (new)

K.A. Jordan (kajordan) | 3042 comments Okay - we agree on rape - but beastiality? "I Did Daddy?" or "Mommy & Me?" SQUICK!


message 28: by Patricia (new)

Patricia (patriciasierra) | 2388 comments I love animals, but there are limits.


message 29: by Claudine (new)

Claudine | 1110 comments Mod
K. A. wrote: "Okay - we agree on rape - but beastiality?"

Gives new meaning to My Friend Flicka....


message 30: by Patricia (new)

Patricia (patriciasierra) | 2388 comments Thanks for the late-night laugh.


message 31: by Andre Jute (new)

Andre Jute (andrejute) | 4851 comments Mod
Some of these smut pushers are nasty in person too. Here's one letting fly at Kat Jordan on 'Is the Paypal/Smashwords “banning” of rape, incest and bestiality censorship?' at http://coolmainpress.com/ajwriting/ar...

****
Amy
27 February 2012 at 1:57 am (Edit)
I feel very sorry for your husband if you have to say “gag me” at erotic content. Oh well, at least he has your Nook for comfort now.
****

I'm tempted to ask Amy if she's offering to go around and comfort Mr Jordan with... well, better leave it there!


message 32: by Claudine (last edited Feb 28, 2012 04:41AM) (new)

Claudine | 1110 comments Mod
LOL! I was tempted yesterday to say something but then thought better of it, and myself. Now I am going to say something.

I have zero issues with porn. The erotic books appeal to a certain type of reader but that reader is not me. Like I've said on many other forums, if you don't like the title of a thread, don't open it and read. Similarly, if you don't like a particular genre, don't download. It is as simple as that.

And for those who are interested, read this article. http://apex-magazine.com/2012/01/03/w...


message 33: by Patricia (new)

Patricia (patriciasierra) | 2388 comments Claudine, I wish that site were easier to read.


message 34: by Claudine (new)

Claudine | 1110 comments Mod
By Jim C. Hines

So you’ve decided to add a rape scene to your story. After all, you’re writing a horror story, and what’s more horrific than rape? It’s the perfect way to show how evil your villain or monster really is, and everyone always says you have to start a story with action and conflict, right? Best of all, your story will help to educate women about the dangers of walking alone at night! The editor is a chick, so she should appreciate that kind of thing.

Or not.

I admit this is a hot-button issue for me. I’ve worked as a rape counselor and spent several years speaking to various groups at my university about sexual assault issues. I’m also an author. So reading books and stories where the author added a rape to make things “edgier,” or to motivate the heroine, or simply because he or she didn’t know what else to do to that character–it gets old fast.

It’s not that writers can’t or shouldn’t write about rape. The problem is that it’s so often done badly. In unpublished manuscripts I’ve seen in workshops and elsewhere, as well as in published work, it often feels as if people are following the Official Writers’ Guide to Creating Clichéd and Offensive Rape Scenes….

 Chapter One: The Rapist. In the world of fiction, rapists are evil, nasty, scruffy-looking dudes who lurk in the bushes or the shadows of the parking garage. They’ll usually have a knife, ’cause that’s a sexual symbol (I learned that from watching a cop show last week.) As for the victim, she’s not really important; your story is about the rapist!

In storyland, almost all rapists are strangers, easily identified by appearance and mannerism. In the real world, the majority of rapes are committed by friends and family members, but who wants to think about that? It’s more comforting to presume rapists are visibly deviant and easy to identify instead of normal-looking, often charming individuals.

But if you want a real challenge, try making your rapist sympathetic. Show how he didn’t really mean to hurt anyone. Maybe he was overwhelmed by the moment. Maybe he lost control. Maybe he feels really, really bad about what happened. Portray him as the good guy who just made a mistake, even if that means shifting the blame onto the victim.

 Chapter Two: The Victim. Remember, you’re doing a public service for women here, teaching them about the dangers of rape. Sure, women are inundated with such messages every day of their lives, telling them to watch their drinks and always walk with a buddy and be careful what they wear and never lead a guy on and carry mace and a rape whistle and never let a guy get you alone, but rape continues to happen!. Women obviously aren’t getting the message.

So make sure the girl does everything wrong. Have her jogging on her own at night, or inviting a stranger from the bar back to her place. A lot of readers don’t like it when bad things happen to innocent people, so make sure they know she’s responsible for her own bad choices. It helps if you emphasize how slutty she is, because then she’s just getting what she deserves.

Most importantly, try not to show her as a person. The more you humanize the victim, the more the reader might feel bad about what happens.

Chapter Three: The Aftermath. If you, like so many would-be writers before you, are using rape as a shortcut to show how bad your bad guy is, then who cares what happens to the victim? But maybe that victim is actually going to be a character in the story. In that case, the rape should be her primary–her only–motivation throughout the story.

Make sure the rape defines your character and everything she does. For the purpose of your story, she didn’t exist before the rape. Every conversation, every choice, every action should revolve around the rape. That’s the incident that defines her.

Sure, you could do research into how sexual assault actually affects people, and the wide range of reactions people have, but who has the time for that? You’ve got stories to write!

Chapter Four: The Twist. Every good story needs a surprising twist. Why not shock your reader by turning the tables on the rapist? Make your “victim” a monster even worse than the rapist, a monster that will give the bastard the slow, painful, gruesome death he deserves. Don’t worry about story or plot or worldbuilding; this is about Message.

Rape is Wrong, so make sure you show how Wrong your rapist is, and go into great detail about how he gets what’s coming to him. Character development? Who needs it? Your great twist where the rapist becomes the victim is all you need, and once again you’re providing a valuable public service announcement.

Maybe your rapist will even end up getting raped himself! Because then it’s all about justice, kind of like those hilarious prison rape jokes your buddy shared the other night.

Chapter Five: Keep it Sexy. Sure, rape is a horrible, dehumanizing, brutal, and violent crime, but that’s no reason you can’t make it titillating, right? Show some skin, and emphasize the rapist’s arousal. Maybe the victim enjoys it on some level, too.

Once again, reality is not your friend. You’re writing fiction. In the real world, rape is a physically violent and terrifying act. Who wants to read about that? Your job is to make rape sexy and edgy, and appealing to the readers.

By following these instructions, you–like so many writers before you–can create offensive, shallow, uninformed, and flat-out bad stories, too. You can collect rejection letters from editors who will cringe in anticipation the next time they see your name on a submission.

But what if you actually care about your story? What if you’re writing about rape and sexual violence not as an emotional shortcut or a cheap attempt at motivation or characterization, but because it’s important to your story? How do you write about rape and sexual violence and do it well?

There’s no right answer to that question, of course. I’m not about to sit here and dictate the Right Way to write about rape. But here are some of the things I’ve thought about over the years as both an author and a reader.

Research: I remember reading a book by a fairly popular author, one who had obviously done a tremendous amount of research into the science behind his SF story….And then it felt as if everything had changed, as if the author had exceeded his research quota, and so when it came time to write about rape, he produced an utterly cliché-ridden scene that crammed every conceivable rape myth into a two-page scene that made me give up on the whole damn series.

It was badly written and lazy. I don’t believe in “Write what you know,” but I’m a big believer in “Know what you write.” If you’re going to write about sexual violence, read about it first. Read about the dynamics of rape and power. Read about rape myths, and read about the statistics and research that bust those myths. Read books written by survivors of sexual violence.

Characterization: A friend of mine reviewed an episode of a new TV show that dealt with sexual slavery, an episode in which the victims were nothing but set pieces. They were scenery, present only to be caged and abused, with absolutely no voice or agency in the story. They didn’t even have names. Their job was to show how evil the villain was, and to be rescued by the hero.

Cardboard characters make boring stories. Defining a character simply as “The Rape Survivor” is just bad writing. Every character should have multiple motivations and desires and fears. They should try to take an active role in their own story, even if they fail. This should be the case for after the rape, too. There is no right way for survivors to react after rape. How would your character cope with that trauma?

Don’t forget about your villain, either. Why does your rapist choose to rape? If the only answer you have is “Because he’s evil,” then you’re on the wrong track. Head back to the research step to find out why rapists rape in the real world, and figure out what motivates your villain to commit this particular crime.

Rape =/= Sex: Another book I read this year introduced a strong, capable, confident heroine…and then immediately had a vampire overpower and rape her. It was a vicious, brutal attack, and the vampire would have murdered her if he hadn’t been interrupted. The victim ends up becoming a vampire herself as a result of the rape. A few chapters later, this character thinks back on her “initiation,” referring to it as rough sex.

Now, it’s not unusual for survivors of rape to avoid the word “rape” when thinking about what they endured. It’s a way to try to minimize what someone did to them, to try to manage and control it by making it less than it was. If you’re trying to write about a character who’s struggling to cope and doing so by telling herself what happened wasn’t rape, that’s one thing.

But in this case, it felt as if the author were the one minimizing. Not only did the victim start thinking about it as sex, but also nobody else in the book ever seemed to acknowledge it as rape. The author presented a violent rape, then brushed it off as no worse than a bad date.

Don’t do that.

Ask yourself why? Why do you want to include rape in your story? Is it just to show how bad your villain is? Is it because you’re writing horror, and sexual violence is such an overused trope of the genre that you added it to your story without thinking? Or does this scene really add to the story you’re trying to tell?

Ninety percent of the rape scenes I read in fiction, published and unpublished, are predictable. I see where the author’s going from a mile away. I sigh and keep reading, thinking maybe this time there will be something different or interesting or original here. But most of the time, it’s obvious how little real thought went into this part of the story.

I have to ask myself the same thing: what does this scene add to the story? As a former rape counselor, I occasionally find myself more worried about Message, but that risks turning the story into a lecture. It’s one thing to share strong opinions in an essay or a blog post, but when you can hear the author preaching at you in fiction–even if you agree with the author–that makes for a poor story.

*

If you ever run into an editor, ask them how many badly-written, vicious, misogynistic, angry, and just plain awful stories they receive about rape and sexual violence. (Especially if they edit dark fantasy or horror.) Most of the editors I know have seen enough of these stories that they’d auto-reject the story as soon as you describe your heroine jogging down the darkened path in the park, because they know exactly where you’re going.

Story after story in which rape is a quick, thoughtless way to motivate a woman to set off in search of revenge (“Red Sonja Syndrome”), or else it’s lazy shorthand to show how evil someone is, like having them kick a puppy. Or worse, it’s written in such a way that the writer seems to be reveling in the act him- or herself, glorifying and celebrating every graphic detail.

If you’re going to write, write thoughtfully. Write with knowledge and understanding.

Write well.

Jim C. Hines is the author of seven fantasy novels and more than forty short stories. He worked as the male outreach coordinator for a domestic violence shelter, and was a sexual assault counselor and community speaker at his local crisis center. You can find him online at www.jimchines.com where he continues to write about sexual violence and harassment, as well as lighter topics ranging from LEGO chainsaws to book reviews to zombie-themed Christmas carols.


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message 35: by Claudine (new)

Claudine | 1110 comments Mod
There you go, that's the article.


message 36: by K.A. (new)

K.A. Jordan (kajordan) | 3042 comments Thanks Claudine - and thanks for your comment on Andre's Blog.

Hmm - I see where the thread got spammed too...very funny.


message 37: by Andre Jute (new)

Andre Jute (andrejute) | 4851 comments Mod
Gee, for a moment I thought it said, "6 joggers like this post".

Personally, I wouldn't mind reading good erotica (there isn't any), but in fact what we're talking about isn't erotica, which implies beautiful writing, but straight-up pornography, which merely requires graphic description.

Now, I would stand up for pornographers as well (not all of them but enough of them to upset some here) if they're being denied free speech, because it is the principle that matters; I have no problem defending the right to free speech of people whose hands I've publicly refused to shake and with whom I've scornfully refused to break bread. I don't let scum touch me, and I certainly don't take food from the hands of slime. But scum and slime have rights of free speech too, limited only by doing no harm; free speech doesn't only belong to my class or those who agree with my morality.

But this business is a *financial* brouhaha (1), nothing to do with the principle of free speech.

(1) And underlying it is a coming legal brouhaha; Paypal is taking these and other steps in an effort to avoid being labelled the money launderer of choice for pedophiles and having restrictive laws slapped on them. That's a business and management decision, precisely the same as the Apple decision to be squeaky-clean; the Paypal management just isn't as competent (by a million miles) as the Apple management in arranging these matters.


message 38: by K.A. (new)

K.A. Jordan (kajordan) | 3042 comments What a crew...they certainly try to get their digs in.

I agree, the issue is access to easy money - not 'artistic freedom' in any sense.

I backtracked a couple of them - wasn't surprised by what I found.

"Twilight" proves you don't have to be a good writer to make scads of money; you don't need smut to make scads of money.

Teen-age Angst will do the trick.

"Pity my husband..." what a joke!


message 39: by J.A. (new)

J.A. Beard (jabeard) K.A.,

I think they misread your statement. I think they were saying you object and gag at the very idea of erotica versus more your objection to the particular sub-genres being discussed. That being said, the dig at you was petty.

Andre,

Have you read any Anais Nin? I haven't, but I'm curious just because her name keeps popping up in discussions of erotica and what not as an example of "quality."


message 40: by K.A. (new)

K.A. Jordan (kajordan) | 3042 comments J.A. - I am much-maligned.

;-)


message 41: by Patricia (new)

Patricia (patriciasierra) | 2388 comments J.A, I've read Nin and thought it was quite good. It was a long time ago, but if I'm remembering correctly it was a series of her short stories.


message 42: by Patricia (new)

Patricia (patriciasierra) | 2388 comments Claudine, my old eyes thank you for posting that.


message 43: by Patricia (new)

Patricia (patriciasierra) | 2388 comments J.A., here's that Nin book I mentioned before:

http://www.amazon.com/Little-Birds-eb...


message 44: by Andre Jute (last edited Feb 28, 2012 02:33PM) (new)

Andre Jute (andrejute) | 4851 comments Mod
I've read Nin. She belongs to that class of French writers valued by a certain excrescence of critic as much for their lifestyles as their writing. I don't. I could easily make a case that Guy de Maupassant is a better writer of erotica than Nin. None of other French writers can touch the anonymous creator of The Story of O. Nin is overrated for being daring in the context of her time.

EDIT: Of course, Nin stands literarily head and shoulders above any of the crowd Paypal refuses to launder money for.


message 45: by J.A. (new)

J.A. Beard (jabeard) Thanks for your thoughts, Patricia and Andre.

Perhaps, like any responsible free-thinking individual I should actually read her myself and see what the fuss is all about. :)


message 46: by Andre Jute (new)

Andre Jute (andrejute) | 4851 comments Mod
Let us know if you discover an overlooked gem. I'm always delighted to be proved wrong; it relieves the boredom.


message 47: by Patricia (new)

Patricia (patriciasierra) | 2388 comments Andre, you aren't Nin's target audience. You need estrogen.


message 48: by K.A. (new)

K.A. Jordan (kajordan) | 3042 comments Or a great deal of wine.


message 49: by Sharon (new)

Sharon Tillotson (storytellerauthor) | 1802 comments I thought it rather cool that those folks found your site, Andre.

Claudine, thanks for the link to the article. It was very succinct advice - and should be read by all those thinking of putting in a rape scene.

As for Amy, she certainly exposed herself for what she is; someone who should but never will read the above article. How low can one go?


message 50: by Andre Jute (new)

Andre Jute (andrejute) | 4851 comments Mod
I'll take the wine, thanks.


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