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Elizabeth the Queen: The Life of a Modern Monarch
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BRITISH MONARCHY/ROYAL HOUSES > 7. ELIZABETH THE QUEEN ~ February 20-February 26 ~ ~ CHAPTERS 13-14 (287-331) ~ No Spoilers Please

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message 1: by Jill (last edited Feb 18, 2012 02:52PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Jill Hutchinson (bucs1960) Hello Everyone,

For the week of February 20 - February 26, we are reading the next two chapters of Elizabeth the Queen.

The seventh week's reading assignment is:

Week Seven - February 20 - February 26 - p. 287-331:


THIRTEEN - Iron Lady and English Rose

FOURTEEN - A Very Special Relationship


We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on January 10th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle. This weekly thread will be opened up on February 20th or sometime during the weekend before.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Jill will be leading this discussion. But since this is Jill's first time moderating a book; Bentley will be co-moderating this selection.

Welcome,

~Bentley


TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

Elizabeth The Queen The Life Of A Modern Monarch by Sally Bedell Smith by Sally Bedell Smith Sally Bedell Smith



REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2......

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/7......

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in her research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/7......

Q&A with Sally

Please as you are reading post questions to the author's Q&A thread because Sally Bedell Smith will be looking in periodically and will be posting answers to your questions and will be available for a chat. She will be dropping in every now and then when she has time between stops on her book tour. We are very fortunate that she is making time to spend with us.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/7......


Jill Hutchinson (bucs1960) Chapter Overviews and Summaries

Chapter 13 (Iron Lady and English Rose)

In this chapter we meet Lady Margaret Thatcher, the first female Prime Minister and get insight into her working relationship with the Queen. The Queen travels to Africa as rumors circulate that a number of African countries could leave the Commonwealth. Rhodesia declares independence as the Republic of Zimbabwe. Prince Phillip's beloved uncle and Prince Charles' mentor, Lord Mountbatten is assassinated by the IRA. Prince Charles and Princess Margaret react harshly and harden their views on Ireland. Prince Charles begins his love affair with Camilla Parker-Bowles and then meets Diana who he marries.The author provides in-depth information about Diana and the problems that arose almost immediately in the marriage. The Queen has an assassination scare while riding horseback in her birthday parade. Diana becomes pregnant and becomes more psychologically upset.

Chapter 14 (A Very Special Relationship)
Prince Andrew, second in line to the throne, serves in the Falklands War. Former President Jimmy Carter makes a gaffe with the Queen Mum. President and Mrs. Reagan visit with the Royal Family and a strong friendship develops. Princess Diana gives birth to William who becomes the second in line to the throne. The Queen has an unexpected visitor in her bedroom as an intruder breaks into the castle. Diana's behavior becomes more erratic. The Queen and Prince Phillip visit the west coast of the United States and visit the Reagan ranch. Princess Margaret's life becomes more difficult and she begins drinking heavily. Diana gives birth to a second son, Prince Harry. The Duchess of Windsor dies and is brought back to England to be buried next to her husband. Prince Andrew marries Sarah Ferguson ("Fergie").


Jill Hutchinson (bucs1960) Please feel free to post your comments and thoughts related to Chapter 13 (Iron Lady and English Rose) and Chapter 14 (A Very Special Relationship). This is a non-spoiler thread.


message 4: by Jill (last edited Feb 19, 2012 03:28PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Jill Hutchinson (bucs1960) The following interchange between the Queen and thoroughbred trainer Ian Balding which took place when Lady Thatcher became PM made me chuckle.
What do you think about Margaret Thatcher getting in?" "Ma'am," he replied, "I'm not sure I can get my head around a woman running the country" The Queen fell silent. "You know what I mean?" he said. This time she laughed and said nothing in reply." pg. 289.

Thatcher had written that the accession of Elizabeth II could help remove "the last shreds of prejudice against women aspiring to the highest places". She was a very strong personality and could be intimidating, thus the appellation "the Iron Lady". How do you view her approach to the position of PM?


message 5: by Lewis (new)

Lewis Codington | 291 comments The comparisons given between the Queen and PM Thatcher are quite interesting...both very strong, tough, loyal, principled ladies...both uniquely qualified for their individual positions. To see how Thatcher could twirl all the gentlemen MPs around her fingers was remarkable. And of course no one dared contradict the Queen! An amazing combination at an important point in Britain's history, when national confidence needed to again be reasserted. Also interesting that, though their backgrounds and styles were very different, they seemed to have an unusually good rapport and respect for each other.


message 6: by Lewis (new)

Lewis Codington | 291 comments The Queen's role during the African Commonwealth meetings in 1979 (pages 293-4) appears to have been pivotal in bringing about a satisfactory and peaceful result. Though she represented the Crown, she was removed enough from the politics involved to be received and accepted by African leaders. And of course her calmness, poise, graciousness, and sincerity no doubt helped to win over some disgruntled doubters. Perhaps we will never know to what extent she has over the course of her Reign worked effectively, tirelessly, quietly behind the scenes to bring about results such as in this case, where a situation was turned to Britain's advantage when the result might perhaps have been different if her steady, nonpolitical presence had been absent.


Barbara (barbaraannewaite) Lewis I like the way you evaluated this aspect of history that the Queen was so involved in. Wow "calmness, poise, graciousness and sincerity,... working tirelessly and effectively." You put that in such a way that I see a side that is to be admired. Afraid I was struck by some other aspects that are less admirable. The Queen has to be a woman of many layers, some I admire yet others I cringe as I read about them.


message 8: by Lewis (new)

Lewis Codington | 291 comments The account of the Queen and her reaction to the gunman while she was on horseback is remarkable (pages 300-301). Generally it is an unconscious reflex to duck in a situation like this (such as Reagan did). She has an uncommon and uncanny ability to separate herself and her feelings from her complete dedication and sense of responsibility to embodying all that a Monarch should display before her people. Her cool, steady reaction, her disregard for her personal safety in deference to her mandate as a Sovereign to convey poise and control is quite remarkable...and no doubt a source of pride, calm, and confidence in her people.


Barbara (barbaraannewaite) Elizabeth- chapter 13
I rather enjoy the comparison between Margaret Thatcher and the Queen. Sad to read that both women “…had trouble discussing their feelings, which prevented them from venturing into personal topics that might have formed a bond.” Too bad they could not just do a “girl’s day out” and remove the hats and let down their hair! I did enjoy Thatcher’s quote about were she a visitor from Mars required to create a constitutional system, “I would set up…hereditary monarchy…trained in duty and in leadership…which is always there, which is above politics, for which the whole nation has an affection and which is a symbol of patriotism.” Nice thought but not sure after reading all this that it really happens today.
Again, in this chapter, it speaks of the Queen not sending a letter of condolence, describing her as having “strong feelings but does not want to convey them.” Excuse me, but if Thatcher was the “Iron Lady” then the Queen seems to be the “Ice-in-her-veins Lady.” If she can write a 6 page letter regarding the death of one of her corgis then why not a short heart felt letter at the loss of a friend? There is nothing “proper” about being uncaring.
Chapter 14
I do love the picture of the Queen and President Reagan riding in Windsor Park.
Amazing to read about the breach of security and a man entering the Queen’s bedroom. Sounds like a movie.
I liked the quote the author included by Reagan when the Reagans had their 31st wedding anniversary dinner on the Britannia. These little glimpses of humor by the President and thoughtfulness of the Queen help them come across as real people after all.
I had forgotten how the British felt about the American intervention in Grenada. We were living in Antigua at the time and I only remembered the thankfulness of Grenadians (living here) to Americans for stepping in. I had not thought about the properness of the invasion.
Again, I appreciated the little details the author included like the difficulty of the Queen not having a passport when she visited Kentucky. I dread the process of customs and immigration but never imagined a Queen going thru the hassle of that procedure.


message 10: by Jill (new) - rated it 4 stars

Jill Hutchinson (bucs1960) Lewis wrote: "The Queen's role during the African Commonwealth meetings in 1979 (pages 293-4) appears to have been pivotal in bringing about a satisfactory and peaceful result. Though she represented the Crown, ..."

The comparison of her behind the scenes influence in the African Commonwealth meetings point out that she may have also been influential in the Singapore Commonwealth meeting from which she was "banned" by the then PM Heath. The acrimony of that meeting might have been reduced if she had attended.


message 11: by Jill (new) - rated it 4 stars

Jill Hutchinson (bucs1960) Barbara.....I agree that the Queen sometimes comes across as having ice in her veins but do you think that it may come from her training to always protect the "mystique" of the monarchy? She has to project an image of majesty (for lack of a better term) which precludes any outward show of emotion.


message 12: by Lewis (new)

Lewis Codington | 291 comments Jill wrote: "Barbara.....I agree that the Queen sometimes comes across as having ice in her veins but do you think that it may come from her training to always protect the "mystique" of the monarchy? She has to..."

Yes, I believe you are right, Jill. When the Queen did not invite the Duke of Windsor to the coronation (back on pages 79-80), it was surely due to following the correct royal protocol. I don't think it would have been a personal snub...even if the Queen found the Duke distasteful in some regards, I don't think she would have allowed her feelings to determine her decision.


message 13: by Lewis (new)

Lewis Codington | 291 comments On page 310, when Sally B. Smith discusses the Falklands War and the dilemma the Queen faces regarding her son, Andrew, who was in the Royal Navy at the time, she could certainly have been forgiven if she had excused him from service in the war due to his position in the Royal family. But, as is always the case with her, she carefully considers her duty as the Sovereign of the nation, puts aside personal feelings, and does what she believes is most appropriate for the nation...and lets him go into combat. Makes one wonder...what would a sitting President do in such a case?


message 14: by Lewis (new)

Lewis Codington | 291 comments The incident about the intruder into Buckingham Palace (pages 314-5) is interesting for at least two reasons. How does an ordinary citizen breach the high wall surrounding the palace, cross the grounds undetected, enter an unlocked door, and find his way through a palace with nearly 800 rooms, up to the Queen's bedroom...and not be noticed or caught? The other more interesting point in this incident is the Queen's response and behavior. I wonder how Nancy Reagan, Hillary Clinton, or Laura Bush would have responded in a similar situation. The Queen could have tried to dash out of the room and scream until help came. But her poise and control of all her faculties, even in a dangerous personal situation, moves her to handle the situation in a calm and steady way. She must have managed to put the intruder very much at ease for them to be able to carry on a casual conversation. I can imagine that I would have been feeling great fear and stress and likely would have yelled at the top of my voice until something happened. It seems that again the Queen is able to disregard her personal discomfort and respond in a way that she believes befits a Sovereign...fascinating and amazing to behold. She has been trained and has exercised for a lifetime the proper manner for the Monarch to behave in any and all situations. She probably epitomizes the ideal for a British Sovereign as much as or more than any that have preceded her.


message 15: by Jill (new) - rated it 4 stars

Jill Hutchinson (bucs1960) I would agree that she is the ideal......and she was the daughter of the second in line for the throne! The family had to make the transition from the "second level" of the monarchy and the training that Elizabeth's parents gave her served her and the country well.
I think that we get a glimpse of the Queen's emotions during the aftermath of Lord Mountbatten's murder when she invited one of the surviving children of the bomb attack to stay with her at Balmoral. She was able to draw him out and speak of the tragedy.....in his words "She didn't probe. She has a brilliant way of using her ears as magnets and getting people to talk. I spoke to her in a way I hadn't spoken, articulating things other peoples hadn't drawn out of me". Pg. 296


message 16: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited Feb 20, 2012 10:08AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44200 comments Mod
Lewis wrote: "On page 310, when Sally B. Smith discusses the Falklands War and the dilemma the Queen faces regarding her son, Andrew, who was in the Royal Navy at the time, she could certainly have been forgiven..."

Let us take as an example Theodore Roosevelt who was president:

First Son: Theodore D. "Teddy" Roosevelt, Jr. (September 13, 1887 – July 12, 1944), was an American political and business leader, a Medal of Honor recipient who fought in both of the 20th century's world wars. He was the eldest son of President Theodore Roosevelt from his second wife Edith Roosevelt. Roosevelt was instrumental in the forming of the American Legion in 1919. He later served as Assistant Secretary of the Navy, Governor of Puerto Rico (1929–32), Governor-General of the Philippines (1932–33), Chairman of the Board of American Express Company, and Vice-President at Doubleday Books, and as a Brigadier General in the United States Army.

Second Son: Kermit

First World War:

In 1917 as he was about to be transferred to a Russian branch, the U.S. entered the World War. On 22 August 1917, Roosevelt was appointed an honorary captain in the British Army,[4] and saw hard fighting in the Near East, later transferring to the United States Army. While his other brothers had had summer training at Plattsburg, New York, Roosevelt had missed out on this training.
Roosevelt joined the British Army to fight in the Mesopotamia (modern-day Iraq) theater of World War I. He was attached to the 14th Light Armoured Motor Battery of the Machine Gun Corps, but the British High Command decided they could not risk his life and so they made him an officer in charge of transport (Ford Model T cars). Within months of being posted to Mesopotamia, he mastered spoken as well as written Arabic and was often relied upon as a translator with the locals. He was awarded a Military Cross on 26 August 1918.[5] When the United States joined the war, Roosevelt was transferred to the AEF in Europe, relinquishing his British commission on 28 April 1918.[6] In 1918, he learned that his youngest brother Quentin, a pilot, had been shot down over France and had been buried by the Germans with full military honors.

The Second World War: By 14 October 1939, when Britain was at war with Germany, Roosevelt had negotiated a commission as a Second Lieutenant in the Middlesex Regiment with the assistance of his friend, Winston Churchill, who was by then First Lord of the Admiralty.

His first task was to lead a contingent of British volunteers for the Winter War in Finland.

According to a contemporary story published in Picture Post, he had resigned from the British Army to lead the expedition.

However, before the expedition could be launched, Finland made peace with Russia. Roosevelt served with distinction in a raid into Norway and was later sent to North Africa, where there was little action at the time. He resumed drinking and was debilitated by an enlarged liver complicated by a resurgence of malaria. At the end of 1940, he returned to England and was discharged from the army on health grounds on 2 May 1941, by which time he had once again reached the rank of captain.

Roosevelt appealed this discharge all the way to the British Prime Minister, Winston Churchill, who upheld the medical discharge.

When he returned to the US, he turned to drinking to forget his problems. His wife enlisted the help of his cousin, President Franklin D. Roosevelt, who ordered the FBI to track him down, and he was brought back to his family. To extricate him from his current situation, the President gave him a commission as a major in the United States Army, and had him transferred and posted to Fort Richardson, Alaska, where he worked as an intelligence officer and helped establish a territorial militia of Eskimos and Aleuts. He committed suicide.

Third Son: Archie

Archibald Bulloch "Archie" Roosevelt (April 9, 1894 – October 13, 1979), the fourth child of U.S. President Theodore Roosevelt, was a distinguished U.S. Army officer and commander of U.S. forces in both World War I and II. In both conflicts he was wounded. He earned the Croix de guerre and Silver Star with Oak Leaf Cluster, respectively. After World War II, he became a successful businessman and the founder of a New York City bond brokerage house, as well as a spokesman for right wing political causes

Fourth Son: Quentin (the youngest and TR's favorite)

Quentin Roosevelt (November 19, 1897 – July 14, 1918) was the youngest and favorite son of President Theodore Roosevelt. Family and friends agreed that Quentin had many of his father's positive qualities and few of the negative ones. Inspired by his father and siblings, he joined the United States Army Air Service where he became a pursuit pilot during World War I. Extremely popular with his fellow pilots and known for being daring, he was killed in aerial combat over France on Bastille Day (July 14), 1918.

========================================

The current President has no sons. Joseph Biden (the Vice President)
does.


His eldest son: Joseph Robinette "Beau" Biden III (born February 3, 1969) is an American lawyer, Army JAG officer, and politician from Wilmington, Delaware. He serves as the Attorney General of Delaware and a Major in the Delaware Army National Guard. He is a member of the Democratic Party and is also the oldest son of the current Vice President of the United States, Joe Biden.

Biden joined the military in 2003[13] as a member of the Delaware Army National Guard and was recently promoted to the rank of Major in the Judge Advocate General (JAG) Corps as part of the 261st Signal Brigade in Smyrna, Delaware.

Biden's unit was activated to deploy to Iraq on October 3, 2008, and sent to Fort Bliss, Texas for pre-deployment training, the day after his father participated in the 2008 presidential campaign's only vice presidential debate. His father is on the record as saying, "I don't want him going. But I tell you what, I don't want my grandson or my granddaughters going back in 15 years, and so how we leave makes a big difference."

Biden traveled to Washington, D.C. from Iraq in January 2009 for the presidential inauguration and his father's swearing-in as Vice President, then returned to Iraq.

Biden received a visit at Camp Victory from his father on July 4, 2009.

Biden returned from Iraq in September 2009, his yearlong deployment complete.

Biden had announced that during his deployment he would continue to actively serve as Delaware's Attorney General by working in conjunction with his office's senior staff in Delaware, although a member of his unit related Biden saying he had turned over most of his attorney general work to his deputy so as to focus on his duties in Iraq.

The previous President George W. Bush had no sons. He served in the National Guard.

The previous President Bill Clinton had no sons.

The previous President George Bush Senior had sons. He also served himself:

Following the attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941, Bush decided to join the US Navy, so after graduating from Phillips Academy earlier in 1942, he became a naval aviator at the age of 18. After completing the 10-month course, he was commissioned as an ensign in the U.S. Naval Reserve at Corpus Christi, Texas on June 9, 1943, just three days before his 19th birthday, which made him the youngest naval aviator to that date.

He was assigned to Torpedo Squadron (VT-51) as the photographic officer in September 1943. The following year, his squadron was based on the USS San Jacinto as a member of Air Group 51, where his lanky physique earned him the nickname 'Skin'. During this time, the task force was victorious in one of the largest air battles of World War II: the Battle of the Philippine Sea.

After Bush's promotion to Lieutenant (junior grade) on August 1, the San Jacinto commenced operations against the Japanese in the Bonin Islands. Bush piloted one of four Grumman TBM Avenger aircraft from VT-51 that attacked the Japanese installations on Chichijima.

His crew for the mission, which occurred on September 2, 1944, included Radioman Second Class John Delaney and Lieutenant Junior Grade William White.

During their attack, the Avengers encountered intense anti-aircraft fire; Bush's aircraft was hit by flak and his engine caught on fire.

Despite his plane being on fire, Bush completed his attack and released bombs over his target, scoring several damaging hits.

With his engine afire, Bush flew several miles from the island, where he and one other crew member on the TBM Avenger bailed out of the aircraft; the other man's parachute did not open. It has not been determined which man bailed out with Bush as both Delaney and White were killed as a result of the battle. Bush waited for four hours in an inflated raft, while several fighters circled protectively overhead until he was rescued by the lifeguard submarine USS Finback. For the next month he remained on the Finback, and participated in the rescue of other pilots.

George Bush in his TBM Avenger on the carrier USS San Jacinto in 1944
Bush subsequently returned to San Jacinto in November 1944 and participated in operations in the Philippines until his squadron was replaced and sent home to the United States.

Through 1944, he flew 58 combat missions for which he received the Distinguished Flying Cross, three Air Medals, and the Presidential Unit Citation awarded to San Jacinto.

Because of his valuable combat experience, Bush was reassigned to Norfolk Navy Base and put in a training wing for new torpedo pilots. He was later assigned as a naval aviator in a new torpedo squadron, VT-153, based at Naval Air Station Grosse Ile, Michigan.

Upon the Japanese surrender in 1945, Bush was honorably discharged in September of that year.

His eldest son was cited before. None of the other sons joined the military.

The president before him was Ronald Reagan who served himself. His sons did not serve.

The president before was Jimmy Carter. He served and his son Jack served in Vietnam.

Carter served in the navy and served on surface ships and on diesel-electric submarines in the Atlantic/Pacific fleets. As an officer, he completed qualification for command of a diesel-electric submarine. He applied for the US Navy's nuclear submarine program run by then Captain Hyman G. Rickover. Rickover's demands on his men and machines were legendary, and Carter later said that, next to his parents, Rickover had the greatest influence on him. Carter has said that he loved the Navy, and had planned to make it his career. His ultimate goal was to become Chief of Naval Operations. Carter felt the best route for promotion was with submarine duty since he felt that nuclear power would be increasingly used in submarines. Carter was based in Schenectady, New York, and working on developing training materials for the nuclear propulsion system.

On December 12, 1952, an accident with the experimental NRX reactor at Atomic Energy of Canada’s Chalk River Laboratories caused a partial meltdown. The resulting explosion caused millions of liters of radioactive water to flood the reactor building’s basement, and the reactor’s core was no longer usable. Carter was now ordered to Chalk River, joining other Canadian/American personnel. He was the officer in charge of the U.S. team assisting in the shutdown of the Chalk River Nuclear Reactor. Source: all Wikipedia

=========================================

I just wanted to point out what preceding presidents did do by just citing a few and the toll on them and their families and the fact that in 99% of all of the above situations that the majority did the right thing also and some suffered immeasurably. The royal family is pulled out when the situation may place them or the folks around them in danger which was not the case with the majority above.


message 17: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44200 comments Mod
Lewis wrote: "The incident about the intruder into Buckingham Palace (pages 314-5) is interesting for at least two reasons. How does an ordinary citizen breach the high wall surrounding the palace, cross the gro..."

Lewis, I thought the same thing. How lax security must have been at that time. And the Queen was an example of true courage, poise etc. But I do not think that you give the Americans their due either. I think that Hilary and Laura would have done just fine; not sure about Nancy but she may be tougher than you think.

However, we do know what the Queen did and she should be given her due for that spectacular handling of a very delicate and potentially dangerous situation. She is every bit a commander in chief. I bet security is tighter now (smile).


message 18: by Jill (new) - rated it 4 stars

Jill Hutchinson (bucs1960) Here is some additional information about Michael Fagan's break-in(s).

"It was the 31-year-old's[4] second successful attempt to break into Buckingham Palace. On his first attempt, he scaled a drainpipe, briefly startling a housemaid who called security, who subsequently decided not to act. Fagan entered through an unlocked window on the roof and spent the next half hour eating cheddar cheese and crackers and wandering around. He tripped several alarms, but they were faulty. He viewed the royal portraits and rested on the throne for a while. He then entered the postroom, where the pregnant Diana, Princess of Wales had hidden presents for her first son, William. He drank half a bottle of white wine before becoming tired and leaving.

On the second attempt, an alarm sensor detected him. A worker in the Palace thought the alarm to be false, and silenced the alarm. En route to see the Queen, he broke a glass ashtray, lacerating his hand.

The Queen woke when he disturbed a curtain, after which he sat on the edge of her bed talking to her for about ten minutes. The Queen phoned twice for police but none came. He then asked for some cigarettes, which were brought by a maid. When the maid did not return to base for some time, footman Paul Whybrew appeared. The incident happened as the armed police officer outside the royal bedroom came off duty before his replacement arrived. He had been out walking the Queen's dogs." source: Wikipedia


message 19: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44200 comments Mod
This is hysterical if it was not so dangerous a situation. I cannot believe that security failed to act (lol). And the guy just left out of boredom.

And then sitting on her bed (oh god!). Walking the queen's dogs - I think Mr. Fagan knew the ropes.


message 20: by Jill (new) - rated it 4 stars

Jill Hutchinson (bucs1960) Yes, I got a laugh out of it......she was lucky he was not a violent person. I wonder if the security people were re-assigned after that fiasco!!!


message 21: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44200 comments Mod
There is another version which was just published TODAY on Mail on line with a photo of the intruder:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/artic...


message 22: by Jill (new) - rated it 4 stars

Jill Hutchinson (bucs1960) Whichever version is correct, it still is an amazing story. Like Lewis said, I would have probably yelled my head off!!!


message 23: by Jill (new) - rated it 4 stars

Jill Hutchinson (bucs1960) The courtship and marriage of Prince Charles and Lady Diana Spencer has been dissected thoroughly by the press and "royal watchers". The author describes the reasons for the unsuitability of the match and traces the beginnings of Diana's fragile ego to the divorce of her parents.

" In September 1967 when Diana was six, Frances (her mother) left her husband for her lover, Peter Shand Kydd which led to an acrimonious divorce followed by Frances's marriage to Shand Kydd......Diana and her three year old brother felt the brunt of the bitterness - an experience that marked Diana deeply and contributed to her lifelong emotional instability." Pg 297-298.

The author goes on to point out that Diana's problems included nagging insecurity, lack of discipline, shifting moods, signs of obsessive behavior, and difficulty telling the truth. With the hindsight that we now have of the marriage, do you feel that the author has provided a fair assessment of the problems that would eventually wreck the marriage.


message 24: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44200 comments Mod
Jill wrote: "I would agree that she is the ideal......and she was the daughter of the second in line for the throne! The family had to make the transition from the "second level" of the monarchy and the trainin..."

Yes, admirable. She has a quiet way with most folks.


message 25: by Lewis (new)

Lewis Codington | 291 comments Bentley wrote: "Lewis wrote: "On page 310, when Sally B. Smith discusses the Falklands War and the dilemma the Queen faces regarding her son, Andrew, who was in the Royal Navy at the time, she could certainly have..."

Very interesting and insightful accounts of members of presidential families serving in the military. Thank you, Bentley. Must be doubly challenging to send a son or daughter into a war situation with all the public scrutiny that is on you.


message 26: by Lewis (new)

Lewis Codington | 291 comments Bentley wrote: "Lewis wrote: "The incident about the intruder into Buckingham Palace (pages 314-5) is interesting for at least two reasons. How does an ordinary citizen breach the high wall surrounding the palace,..."

Interesting to compare the Royal family with others in Europe, such as in Holland or Denmark. Members of the Royalty there live as ordinary citizens for the most part, shopping, riding bikes, and dressing in the same way anyone else does.


message 27: by Lewis (new)

Lewis Codington | 291 comments Jill wrote: "Here is some additional information about Michael Fagan's break-in(s).

"It was the 31-year-old's[4] second successful attempt to break into Buckingham Palace. On his first attempt, he scaled a dra..."


That's very interesting, thanks, Jill. Incredible how many times some kind of alert was sent out, but with no response from security forces. Must be hard to stay alert after one has experienced perhaps hundreds of false alarms, but consequences of such an incident could potentially be dire...such as with the assassination that started World War I. Hope things are a little tighter today!


message 28: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44200 comments Mod
Lewis wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Lewis wrote: "On page 310, when Sally B. Smith discusses the Falklands War and the dilemma the Queen faces regarding her son, Andrew, who was in the Royal Navy at the time, she coul..."

I think it is here. Public scrutiny and the media know no limits here.


message 29: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44200 comments Mod
Lewis wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Lewis wrote: "The incident about the intruder into Buckingham Palace (pages 314-5) is interesting for at least two reasons. How does an ordinary citizen breach the high wall surroun..."

That is interesting. I think that Kate goes shopping sometimes in the stores for groceries but I think that the Queen would be a target so she has to more careful and protected.


message 30: by Lewis (new)

Lewis Codington | 291 comments Jill wrote: "The courtship and marriage of Prince Charles and Lady Diana Spencer has been dissected thoroughly by the press and "royal watchers". The author describes the reasons for the unsuitability of the ma..."

Ms. Smith certainly brings out an account of Diana's background that I had not been fully aware of, and she seems to strongly take the viewpoint of the Royal family in the account, suggesting that the problems stemmed mostly from Diana's troubled past. Because of Diana's seeming innocence, compassion, and celebrity beauty, I think many Brits were more sympathetic to her predicament and viewpoint during those years and perhaps thought that Charles was very reckless and uncaring toward her. The Queen also seemed very cold and unfeeling to her. It was a very tough period for the Royals in any case, and there was some talk of even abolishing the Monarchy at that time, I remember. We lived and worked in England for 10 years around that time. Some rather tumultuous years... Perhaps things might have been more smooth if the Queen had had the time and ability to invest more in her children, but her sense of duty and responsibility did not allow her to do that.


message 31: by Jill (new) - rated it 4 stars

Jill Hutchinson (bucs1960) Diana was such a very appealing figure....lovely and seemingly shy.....that she captured the hearts of the public. I think as we move forward in the upcoming chapters we will learn more about the troubles within the marriage and the attitudes of the Queen. Certainly Prince Charles wasn't helping by continuing his love affair with Camilla and his cavalier attitude toward his wife......but we could hypothesize that the marriage would have crumbled regardless.
I think that a question to the author on the Q&A With Sally thread might be: "Did the Queen discuss Diana with you during your interviews?". My guess is that the Queen was very circumspect about it.


message 32: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44200 comments Mod
Bless her but she cannot hide what she is thinking:





Hayrunnisa Gul, wife of the president of Turkey, wearing headscarf and ankle-length skirt, but check out those six-inch heels! The Queen is NOT amused!


message 33: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited Feb 20, 2012 05:56PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44200 comments Mod
Lovely picture of Queen Elizabeth in 1946



Heir to the throne: Princess Elizabeth in Buckingham Palace, 1946.Photograph by Lisa Sheridan/Hulton Archive — Getty Images


message 34: by Lewis (new)

Lewis Codington | 291 comments Bentley wrote: "Bless her but she cannot hide what she is thinking:

Actually, she's thinking: "Doggone it, I meant to put on my white gloves instead of these awful black ones!"


Hayrunnisa Gul, wife of the president of Turkey, wearing headscarf and ankle-length skirt, but check out those six-inch heels! The Queen is ..."



message 35: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited Feb 20, 2012 06:10PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44200 comments Mod
No the black ones match her pocketbook perfectly.


message 36: by Lewis (new)

Lewis Codington | 291 comments Here she has white gloves and black purse...but I'm sure there was a good reason...

http://www.operagloves.com/Royals/Que...


message 37: by Lewis (new)

Lewis Codington | 291 comments These black gloves seem a bit shocking to me with her pale green outfit...

http://www.operagloves.com/Royals/Que...


message 38: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44200 comments Mod
Lewis, just as an aside, the links in message 36 and 37 are giving a strange message. She wears black gloves because they match her dark purse. Her accessories. Can't launch the other two links.


message 39: by Lewis (new)

Lewis Codington | 291 comments Hmmm...the links (which were originally two separate pictures) are now opening for me to the same picture...the Queen in white gloves with black purse. Really, looks fine. The one a little startling to me was a very pale green outfit...with jet black gloves...might be able to see it looking up just that web site instead of the whole link. But I don't know much about fashion!


Barbara (barbaraannewaite) I think she always looks regal and fitting of "Her Majesty." I am also struck by the details that reveal aspects of her character that are highly admirable and then other qualities that make me sigh. I am thankful I do not have to think that every article of my clothing and every aspect of my character (and the character or lack of character in my children)will be under a microscope. Gloves and purses and hats (though always fabulous) are just so nothing in the light of the whole picture of her life. I know they are details that make the book what it is. Yes, I do love that this photo captured the Queen's expression. That is revealing and just a story that needs no words.


message 41: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44200 comments Mod
Barbara I agree (smile). She cannot hide her meaning.


Bryan Craig Jill wrote: "Diana was such a very appealing figure....lovely and seemingly shy.....that she captured the hearts of the public. I think as we move forward in the upcoming chapters we will learn more about the t..."

I admit it, I was one of those teen-age boys who had a crush on her, back in the day, lol. I learned a few things about Diana, mainly her bulimia started much earlier than I suspected. I also learned she did have some harsher opinions about the monarch ("Germany family" remark). I thought the Queen was cold to her, but it seems the opposite was true and that Diana did not take the opportunity for help.


message 43: by Cheryl (last edited Feb 21, 2012 10:29AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Cheryl (cheryl319) | 372 comments The Royal Family did a very good job of hiding the troubles Diana was going through - I was an avid royal watcher at the time, and I remember only seeing the warm and lovely woman the press portrayed. Ms. Smith gets behind this facade from the first mention of Diana, quoting many people who saw the misalliance and Diana's issues from the beginning. Her descriptions of Diana seem very realistically harsh to me - and that's not a criticism, for Ms. Smith only gives us the facts - but I feel like she's also trying to point out how the royal family was unjustly villified by the press at the time of Diana's death for their treatment of her during the marriage, when it was her own issues and the pressure of the position that were to blame.


Cheryl (cheryl319) | 372 comments Lewis wrote: "The incident about the intruder into Buckingham Palace (pages 314-5) is interesting for at least two reasons. How does an ordinary citizen breach the high wall surrounding the palace,..."

I actually see a comparison here between the Queen's behavior and her daughter Anne's behavior during the attempted kidnapping. Must run in the family.


Cheryl (cheryl319) | 372 comments Lewis wrote: "The comparisons given between the Queen and PM Thatcher are quite interesting...both very strong, tough, loyal, principled ladies...both uniquely qualified for their individual positions..."

I thought the best comparison was the one in which the Queen was compared to the country's mother and PM Thatcher was compared to the country's headmistress.


message 46: by Jill (new) - rated it 4 stars

Jill Hutchinson (bucs1960) I liked that quote, Cheryl:
The Queen is the mother of the country....She sends you to school...Margaret Thatcher was the headmistress who makes the rules you have to obey. pg. 291

Francois Mitterand, former French President said of Thatcher.."She has the mouth of Marilyn Monroe and the eyes of Caligula"!!


message 47: by Jill (new) - rated it 4 stars

Jill Hutchinson (bucs1960) The Queen once more shows courage and self control when a young man fires at her while she is on horseback. Luckily, the shots were blanks.....she retained her composure and controlled her horse through her expert equestrian skill. Although she no longer rides horseback in public parades, she does not use bullet-proof cars......do you think that this is brave or foolhardy?


message 48: by Lewis (new)

Lewis Codington | 291 comments Jill wrote: "The Queen once more shows courage and self control when a young man fires at her while she is on horseback. Luckily, the shots were blanks.....she retained her composure and controlled her horse th..."

Perhaps could be argued either way. Because she is not a strong lightening rod for one particular political slant, there is perhaps less animosity toward her than toward many politicians. At the same time, she desires very much to be the people's Monarch, and a powerful way that she demonstrates this is by being "accessible" to the public instead of hiding behind impenetrable security. She is still rather inaccessible to most of us...but her willingness to go unprotected to a certain measure does deliver a powerful message that she places the people and the nation above her own personal safety. I think it's a very strong statement by her. She also spends a great deal of time shaking hands and greeting well-wishers in crowds on frequent occasions. She knows and believes that she is not her own...she belongs to the Monarchy, she belongs to the people.


message 49: by Jill (new) - rated it 4 stars

Jill Hutchinson (bucs1960) I think her accessibility to the people makes many politicians wince and your comment on her vulnerability as opposed to politicians in other countries is spot on. There are certain groups that have animosity toward the monarchy and she will always have a certain amount of danger surrounding her personal appearances. Her persona as the "people's Queen" plays a large part in the loyalty that the people feel for her.


message 50: by Jill (last edited Feb 22, 2012 04:23PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Jill Hutchinson (bucs1960) It appears that Princess Diana, the person and Princess Diana, the public figure, were vastly different. I remember seeing the pictures of she and Charles at Balmoral on their honeymoon and they looked so happy (see post 124 in Glossary).....but as was noted on pg. 304:
It was just impossible.....she didn't appear for breakfast. At lunch she sat with her headphones on listening to music". Nobody had ever flouted protocol as Diana did or shown such disrespect to the Queen.
It is becoming obvious that she was ill-equipped for the position and was suffering from serious behavioral problems. She was sent for psychiatric counseling which she resented. Do you think that there were other options to address the problems?


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