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Violence in Mumbai

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message 1: by Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You. (new)

Charissa (dakinigrl) | 3620 comments Mod

I saw this on the news earlier this evening before heading out to get groceries for Thanksgiving meal. My thoughts are with my few friends who live in Mumbai this evening. Over 100 dead. 900 or more wounded. Such a shocking and all-out attack.

message 2: by Lori (new)

Lori FYI for those who are as ignorant or forgetful as I am: Mumbai is the former Bombay.

message 3: by Arminius (new)

Arminius First we have coward terrorists, next we get pirates, now we have armed combat terrorists. They are likely Pakistani although they are claiming to have targeted westerners. I will pray for them.

message 4: by Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You. (new)

Charissa (dakinigrl) | 3620 comments Mod
The articles I have read all cites them as being mujahudeen. I am guessing from the Afghan/Pakistan border. But who knows... there's just so much hate out there.

message 5: by Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You. (new)

Charissa (dakinigrl) | 3620 comments Mod
Hi Ginnie, Happy T Day. Yes, I can imagine they must be very concerned. This is a level of attack that hasn't been seen in recent memory. A whole new can of worms. Such ugliness. XOXO

message 6: by Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You. (new)

Charissa (dakinigrl) | 3620 comments Mod
the news today reported that there was still a standoff going on at a Chabad Jewish Synagog. I am praying hard for the hostages inside.

message 7: by Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You. (new)

Charissa (dakinigrl) | 3620 comments Mod
terrorizing the Chabad is basically like being mean to the Amish. Seriously... what kind of people want to smack Quakers around?

message 8: by Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You. (new)

Charissa (dakinigrl) | 3620 comments Mod
huh. that's interesting. they keep pretty much to themselves, don't they? They are all about the non violence. what the hell would incite people? seriously. also... they make really nice furniture!

message 9: by Félix (last edited Nov 28, 2008 01:12PM) (new)

Félix (habitseven) I know someone who lives there. He was in thehopspitality trade. Not sure what he and his wife are doing now. I don't know if I would ever want to live in a city of 18 million souls. Know what I mean, Vern?

I've tried to contact them to no avail.

message 10: by Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You. (new)

Charissa (dakinigrl) | 3620 comments Mod
Bunny... unlike the Amish, Hassids, and Quakers, Chabad House is specifically all about outreach, which means helping anyone who they come across who needs it. It doesn't matter whether you are Jewish or not, whether you are orthodox or not... none of that. So to choose them out of all the people in India to terrorize and kill is especially heinous.

yes, they found five dead inside Chabad House when it was over. I'm sick to my stomach.

message 11: by Dave (new)

Dave Russell I thought Chabad is a Hasidic organization.

message 12: by Not Bill (new)

Not Bill | 1062 comments ...and now we have confirmation on what was suspected all along: the Jewish hostages were tortured horrificly before being murdered.

message 13: by Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You. (new)

Charissa (dakinigrl) | 3620 comments Mod
oh jesus. I didn't need to know that.

message 14: by Cyril (last edited Dec 01, 2008 08:13PM) (new)

Cyril From the New York Times: The couple’s orphaned 2-year-old son, Moshe Holtzberg, cried out for his parents, Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg, 29, from Brooklyn, and his wife, Rivka, 28, an Israeli. The boy, carrying a small orange inflatable basketball, first cried “Dada” and then inconsolably “Ima,” which means mother in Hebrew, as he accompanied his grieving grandparents and dignitaries, including Israel’s ambassador to India, Mark Sofer, at a synagogue memorial service.

so very sad

message 15: by Lori (new)

Lori Oh god.

message 16: by Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You. (new)

Charissa (dakinigrl) | 3620 comments Mod
it's so hard for me not to hate people who perpetuate this kind of unprovoked violence against innocent bystanders, just on account of their ethnicity, their religion, or their nationality.

message 17: by Lori (new)

Lori I DO hate them.

Never to forget. Never to forgive.


message 18: by Lori (new)

Lori Article from the BBC about the Jewish community in Mumbai, one woman quoted as saying the Jews and Muslims there are close.

message 19: by Not Bill (last edited Dec 02, 2008 09:23AM) (new)

Not Bill | 1062 comments That may be true, but the terrorists were Pakistani, not Indian. It's one thing to live in a multicultural country which India is, and to come from an Islamist state like Pakistan.

From all accounts, the terrorists were well trained and well organized. The lone surviving terrorist claims they're Lashkar e Taiba which is a known islamist proxy fo the Pakistani ISI - and that would fit the picture. Early analysis points to an operation aimed at takinig pressure off of the Taliban which is getting hammered on both sides of the Pak border with the hopes of reigniting a conflict between Pakistan and India.

message 20: by Kelly (new)

Kelly just on account of their ethnicity, their religion, or their nationality.

... and by all accounts, it seems that some of the violence was entirely random, like that in the train station. Some of of it at least was just random hate and distruction to "try to create an international incident".

Though while we're at it, we might as well say on account of their gender. A charity that caters to women and a hospital for women were hit, too. I don't know if that was more random violence, but it certainly seems targeted...

message 21: by Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You. (new)

Charissa (dakinigrl) | 3620 comments Mod
NB... the reports I have heard indicate that they were helped by people who were Indian citizens as well. So... it seems that the tensions inside India are pertinent here as well.

message 22: by Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You. (new)

Charissa (dakinigrl) | 3620 comments Mod
Kelly... that doesn't seem surprising. You really have to be careful and keep those women down, don't you? Don't want them getting uppity or anything.

message 23: by Not Bill (last edited Dec 02, 2008 01:49PM) (new)

Not Bill | 1062 comments Char - sure there are tensions inside India but that is to miss the bigger picture and the big picture is very important. Much of the help that was delivered in terms of logistics was most likely given by a terrorist network belonging to Dawood Ibrahim, which has been inplace in Mumbai and elsewhere for sometime. The randomness of some of the murders is only to spread panic, doubt and fear. The buildings targeted -the Chabad and the hotels were subject of detailed reconnaissance which could only have been carried out with the help of local cells.

Obviously, the detailed logistics were such that US intelligence caught wind of something brewing and delivered at least 2 warngings to the Indian govt that an attack from sea in the Mumbai area was imminent. That same intelligence also shows that they may very well have help from within the US as well.

Given the information we have, and that which is still coming in, it is clear this attack has less to do with local tensions than it does with a well organized global jihadist network that is quite willing to commit mass murder in pursuit of its goals.

9/11 was not a random fluke - neither was this.

message 24: by Not Bill (last edited Dec 02, 2008 01:45PM) (new)

Not Bill | 1062 comments Some important background info can be found here:

A good article with detailed account of the logistical timeline of the attack

And here's an outstanding blog entry from Jules Crittenden which provides a wealth of information all linked back to original articles.

message 25: by Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You. (new)

Charissa (dakinigrl) | 3620 comments Mod
NB... no, of course, I didn't mean to imply that this was some group of isolated crazies. I am well aware that Militant Jihadists are a constant and imminent threat to... well... pretty much anyone who isn't them. Especially The West, and the ever popular Jews.

Thanks for the links. I'm feeling much too good today to read them, but I promise as soon as I'm back in my regular 'we're all doomed so let's get laid' attitude I'll check them out. ; )

message 26: by Lori (new)

Lori Yes indeed.

I got annoyed by the US claiming it warned India.

message 27: by Not Bill (last edited Dec 02, 2008 04:26PM) (new)

Not Bill | 1062 comments umm to expand on your assertion about US "claims" and your correesponding annoyance?

That op-ed, while raising legitimate questions in regards to India, makes the unforgiveable error of excusing terrorism and mass murder on the perceived prejudices inflicted against Islam. We suffered the same garbage from the likes of the LA Times and others following 9/11 and just about every other major terrorist attack. Those who committed the murders were not doing so based on any grievance about conditions in India. Indeed, we've seen time and again that jihadists are just as content to kill fellow muslims when it serves their purpose. This attack was about jihadist geopolitics - nothing more.

The warnings given to India were quite specific and have been cited by multiple sources. Ginnie if you've got different info...please share.

message 28: by Lori (new)

Lori NB, I just felt like the US was crowing, and it wasn't necessary at this time when we're all still reeling from such a horrific incident. Especially in light of the fact that the US itself had plenty of warnings before 9/11.

message 29: by Not Bill (last edited Dec 03, 2008 11:05AM) (new)

Not Bill | 1062 comments Thanks Ginnie - that pretty much somes up my position - quite well actually. However, in this case the BBC does a little spin by referring to anonymous sources as "unnamed", but it's a minor point. Lori - I hardly see where this falls under the term "crowing",

Yes - we had plenty of warnings prior to 9/11. It was a different world then. Ignoring such warnings now is criminally stupid and the outpouring of anger from Mumbai populace towards the Indian government is quite justified. Which is a nice case in point to refute the airy warnings of Asra Nomani and many other Muslim grievance theater peddlars: the Indian people are venting their anger at precisely the right parties - the governments of India and Pakistan and the terrorists who committed this atrocity. Just as after 9/11, Madrid, and other mass casualty attacks, the dreaded "backlash against muslims" fails to materialize.

BunWat - whether there is sectarian stresses or not doesn't matter, the jihadists will do what they do regardless. Yes, such tensions do make it easier, and in fact the jihadists have very organized networks that work towards creating such tensions. Here in the US, the organizations most active in this area are CAIR, The Muslim American Society and the Muslim Student Association.

message 30: by Not Bill (new)

Not Bill | 1062 comments Just found out today that the Jewish mother who was tortured and murdered by the jihadists was 6 months pregnant. Also, her 2 yr old son who survived shows injuries consistant with having been violently beaten by his captors.

message 31: by Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You. (new)

Charissa (dakinigrl) | 3620 comments Mod
Thanks all of you for keeping this thread going with more discussion and information. I have been corresponding with a LiveJournal friend of mine who grew up in Mumbai. She and her immediate family are okay, although a few of them had narrow escapes, but they lost a number of friends in the massacre. She is an inspiration to me as she is spending her time trying to channel her rage into sensible suggestions for her government about dealing with the atrocity. Back when I was infuriated after 9/11 she was one of the few people who talked to me through my rage about having to be careful in the way we respond to this kind of terrorism. She pointed out to me that they live with it on a much more frequent basis than we do, and they cannot afford to risk nuclear war. It would be like nuking themselves. They are simply too close to their Muslim neighbors with which they have the altercation.

I am looking forward to what she has to say in the wake of this intensely personal and also global political nightmare. She is a smart and compassionate person. I will definitely post anything that seems relevent.

message 32: by Not Bill (new)

Not Bill | 1062 comments I couldn't find the story regarding the FIA. Is the story suggesting that the terrorists received training from the Indian govt? And if so, in what? However, everything we know to date, including the statements from the lone surviving terrorist himself, shows that the terrorists were trained in Pakistan, by ex-Pakistani military personnel, and that the training took place over a period of about 18 months.

message 33: by Not Bill (last edited Dec 05, 2008 02:43PM) (new)

Not Bill | 1062 comments Thanks for link Ginnie...nothing I could find in regards to any training.

One thing I did get from the article: NEVER visit the Taj Mahal with a Bollywood director - it's bad cricket. ; ]

And in case anyone wasn't aware we've got LeT squads right here in the US.

message 34: by Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You. (new)

Charissa (dakinigrl) | 3620 comments Mod
of course we do. This is America. We have one of everything. : )

message 35: by Not Bill (new)

Not Bill | 1062 comments hmmmm....not anymore.

Servius  Heiner  | 1980 comments Mod
I recently received a security PowerPoint presentation Via our guard force on the pipeline. It is pretty detailed, anyone interested in reading through it let me know and I'll e-mail it out. Or if you know a way to post PowerPoint.

message 37: by Not Bill (new)

Not Bill | 1062 comments That could be interesting there, Nick. I'd like to take a look.

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