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Is Bella really a Mary Sue?

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QueenRitz From what I know, a Mary Sue is supposed to be someone that is either outrageously talented and flawless, or a completely unrealistic character, or both... A lot of people are criticizing Bella for being a Mary Sue and I can see why. For one thing her name is Bella Swan (Beautiful Swan,) and for another she attracts a sexy sparkling vampire by having a thick skull and a sweet scent. However, I'm not sure if human Bella is a Mary Sue. Bella's not a genius, she's not beautiful (Meyer said she attracts the boys in her school because she's new, not gorgeous), she has no real talent other than reading books (if you even consider that a talent), she's not popular or charming or charismatic. She has some flaws: stubborn, controlling, selfish, manipulative, etc., but she's too underdeveloped as a character to really stand out. I can see why Bella would be a Mary Sue as a vampire but she's not human... Anyways I'm curious to know what you guys think, is Bella a Mary Sue? If not why?


Becky She is a Mary Sue because she is the perfect Vampire even as a human its implied.


Sevania She isn't technically a Mary Sue. She really isn't perfect. She's always putting herself down. But I do see how people may think her to be a Mary Sue.


message 4: by Haley (last edited Jan 07, 2012 06:29PM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Haley Bella is definitely a Mary Sue. Oftentimes Mary Sues are introduced as a flawed person in an effort to disguise the fact that they are Mary Sues. For instance, Bella was a loner at her old school in Phoenix, yet she was immediately the hottest chick at her new school and every handsome or popular male character fell in love with her. It doesn't matter that she was a loner or that she isn't talented. Mary Sue/Gary Stu formula: beautiful/handsome + attracts nearly every beautiful/handsome or popular character of the opposite sex + causes jealous reaction of the same sex + defies all odds + wins over crush + happily ever after = Mary Sue. Though, she is worse than just any ordinary Mary Sue because she is an obvious self-insert.


message 5: by Kim (last edited Jan 07, 2012 06:20PM) (new) - rated it 2 stars

Kim Yes, I believe Bella is the definition of a Mary Sue. Putting yourself down only to have people compliment you back up is not a de-sueifying trait. Neither is being overly clumsy when someone constantly comes to your aid, and nothing really ever affects how you look or function. You need to actually fail at something. You need to fall over and break your ankle because you're clumsy, or hit a wall and get a bruise. Heck, get a scrape or something for goodness sake! She's only ever "clumsy" so that Edward has to rush in and save her. Sure she has bad personality traits, but no one even points them out to her. They act like it's totally OK for her to be the way she is, even when she's being an idiot. Not to mention how she just turned into this amazing vampire at the end, hunting better than everybody and having everyone go on about how gorgeous and amazing she was.

To be clear, my definition of a Mary Sue is a character that fits perfectly into the world she is placed in, usually being the center of attention no matter what is happening, having only a few minor (if any) flaws, and constantly outshining the other characters who should technically be as good, if not better, at whatever it is than her. Everyone also usually loves or respects the character, despite what the character does. It's more of a fan-fiction term, because people create so-and-so to fall in love with and marry a canon character, but it can be applied to all kinds of works.


Sonia Jarmula I don't think that Bella is a Mary Sue, because she has far too many flaws - being shallow, pessimistic, grudge-holding, self-absorbed, unkind, and having no backbone after Edward leaves her, she's that depressed, just to name a few.


message 7: by QueenRitz (last edited Jan 08, 2012 12:09PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

QueenRitz Kim wrote: "Yes, I believe Bella is the definition of a Mary Sue. Putting yourself down only to have people compliment you back up is not a de-sueifying trait. Neither is being overly clumsy when someone const..."

By going with that definition, I'd say that's true. As a vampire, Bella is just too perfect... She outshines everyone only because she "knew about it" beforehand. I don't really want to criticize her too much for being too perfect as a vampire because she's a different species then? I can't relate to it because I don't know any vampires so it would be stupid of me to critique it. As a human however, she is the center of attention but I think that's more because the story is narrated in first-person, and the plot is centered around a love story between her and Edward. Meh, I'm not a big fan of first-person narrations, even in The Hunger Games which I'm currently reading.

"Sure she has bad personality traits, but no one even points them out to her."
I'm not so sure if I agree with that. She's done a lot of stupid shit, but I think people do criticize her more major decisions. For example, during the pregnancy, everyone was raging at her for wanting to sacrifice herself for "the fetus." Bella was also criticized by Edward when she wanted to have sex with him and when she wanted him to change her into a vampire. Jacob also raged at Bella for both those decisions and the decision to be with Edward in the first place. Charlie raged at Bella for wanting to be with Edward, even grounding her so she could get some distance from him. Those are just some of the examples.
I don't disagree with you when you talked about her surperior-ness as a vampire but I'm not sure if Bella really is a Mary Sue as a human.


Bookishnymph *needs hea* No, because her character isn't really perfect.


Valerie No, she definitely is not a Mary Sue. In no way is Bella perfect. She really doesn't have any talents, unless you count having a really nice scent. But that comes naturally, so it doesn't really count. Plus, Bella has tons of flaws.


QueenRitz Valerie wrote: "No, she definitely is not a Mary Sue. In no way is Bella perfect. She really doesn't have any talents, unless you count having a really nice scent. But that comes naturally, so it doesn't really co..."

Exactly! She's supposed to be the average teenager.. (except most people have a talent)


message 11: by Kathy (new) - rated it 1 star

Kathy Suarez Bella is not a Mary Sue, she has so many flaws it's anoying. But she's not realistic either. Then, she turns to a vampire and starts being a Mary Sue, and that makes her even leas realistic


message 12: by Xdyj (new)

Xdyj I don't think there is really an objective criteria for Mary Sue (yes, I've seen the mary sue litmus test). It's just a way for people to say they hate a character while the author intended them to love him/her.


brooke507 So many people say that girls can relate to Bella. I love the Saga, but not because of Bella. Everyone else is more interesting than her.


QueenRitz Xdyj wrote: "I don't think there is really an objective criteria for Mary Sue (yes, I've seen the mary sue litmus test). It's just a way for people to say they hate a character while the author intended them to..."

Very true. This is why I really like the saying "When a book is published the author is dead." Twilight should have been left on it's own. Meyer just keeps giving away crap at interviews praising the hell out of Bella and sort of forces the reader to like her. I'd like to decide for myself whether or not I like a character.


message 15: by Cat *living for the One who breaths life into me* (last edited Feb 01, 2012 11:43PM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Cat *living for the One who breaths life into me* Nazzy wrote: "From what I know, a Mary Sue is supposed to be someone that is either outrageously talented and flawless, or a completely unrealistic character, or both... A lot of people are criticizing Bella for..."

i think you listed some flaws. i think it depends on how you look at it. for example, what seems unralstic to someone may seem normal to others, i think it can be subjective.
one thing i think is throughout the series she grows. that is something a Mary Sue cannot do. in Eclpise she goes from thinking she only love Edward to realizing she loves Jacob too. and in Breaking Dawn she goes from NOT wanting kids to almost dying for her own. she grows a lot throughout the books.
sure, she isn't the most wonderful charrie and is VERY annoying and does/says things that i find are completly stupid but i dont think she is a Mary Sue.
just because she gets a hot boyfriend doesn't mean she is perfect.


Cat *living for the One who breaths life into me* Xdyj wrote: "I don't think there is really an objective criteria for Mary Sue (yes, I've seen the mary sue litmus test). It's just a way for people to say they hate a character while the author intended them to..."

thank you. and i do to an exstent think it is subjective. like i said in my pervious comment what seems normal to others may seem unreal to others :)


Cat *living for the One who breaths life into me* Valerie wrote: "No, she definitely is not a Mary Sue. In no way is Bella perfect. She really doesn't have any talents, unless you count having a really nice scent. But that comes naturally, so it doesn't really co..."

and she grows in the books, that is something a Mary Sue cannot do.


Cat *living for the One who breaths life into me* Nazzy wrote: "Kim wrote: "Yes, I believe Bella is the definition of a Mary Sue. Putting yourself down only to have people compliment you back up is not a de-sueifying trait. Neither is being overly clumsy when s..."

AMEN! you said it perfectly :)


Cat *living for the One who breaths life into me* Sonia wrote: "I don't think that Bella is a Mary Sue, because she has far too many flaws - being shallow, pessimistic, grudge-holding, self-absorbed, unkind, and having no backbone after Edward leaves her, she's..."

AND YOU SPOKE THE TRUTH!amen :)


Cat *living for the One who breaths life into me* Haley wrote: "Bella is definitely a Mary Sue. Oftentimes Mary Sues are introduced as a flawed person in an effort to disguise the fact that they are Mary Sues. For instance, Bella was a loner at her old school i..."

i dont think so. when she moves people like her more becasue she is NEW not beautiful as Nazzy said before at the top.


message 21: by Bree (new) - rated it 2 stars

Bree She is more of an Anti-Sue: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php...


QueenRitz Bree wrote: "She is more of an Anti-Sue: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php..."

Hah. So true! Anti-Sue from Twilight until halfway through Breaking Dawn.

www.nineteenreviews.blogspot.com


message 23: by [deleted user] (new)

Ahh, yes. Bella is a Mary Sue from top to bottom.


Melina Haley wrote: "Bella is definitely a Mary Sue. Oftentimes Mary Sues are introduced as a flawed person in an effort to disguise the fact that they are Mary Sues. For instance, Bella was a loner at her old school i..."

Don't forget the Meyer also tried to impose the fact that Bella is clumsy. The only reason Bella is clumsy is so that our "hero", Edward, can be given a chance to catch her in his arms. Plus, her clumsiness was described as "cute".


Melina Bree wrote: "She is more of an Anti-Sue: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php..."

Perfect Bree. I was thinking something similar. That sounds exactly like Bella


Isabel Bella is over the top, a Mary Sue. She has no acknowledged flaws in the book.
Although she makes mistakes, everything for her works out in the end. There are no consequences for her actions.
Her clumsiness doesn't count as a real flaw because it was meant to be charming and endearing, making Bella more likable.
She annoys me to no end. I really hate it when Meyer tries to depict Bella as mature and selfless, when in reality she only seems simpering, whiny and childish.


message 27: by E (new)

E Sevania wrote: "She isn't technically a Mary Sue. She really isn't perfect. She's always putting herself down. But I do see how people may think her to be a Mary Sue."

Modesty is a classic Mary Sue trait.


KarmaSc0rpi0n Bella went from moderately resembling a Mary Sue to completely being one during Vampirism. As a human she had human flaws that were seen as charming and adorable in the eyes of the other characters (being clumsy and stubborn were often things they found amusing not flawed) and even though her decisions were criticized, no one would have seen her differently at the end of the day. She still would have been their perfect Bella with adorable flaws. It's not that she is perfect it's that she's seen as perfect by almost every character in the book and the ones that don't see her as such are usually villainized for that view (e.g Leah, Jessica, Paul, Lauren). And someone mentioned that Mary Sue's can't grow which is true and Bella really doesn't grow (what do you expect from a story that takes place in about a 2 year gap). Bella stays pretty much the same person throughout the entire series with putting too much emphasis on Edward, the Cullen's and even Jacob and when motherhood comes knocking she doesn't actually do anything a mother would beyond protecting her child. She never once contempates how to raise her child or whether she's actually ready for the responsibility. There is no journey or growth during that, it's just I'm going to keep my child and nothing thought outside of that which she does earlier just with Edward. And when the child's there she really isn't that motherly, she mostly has others take on her responsibility while she goes off and does her own thing. That's not growth, the only thing that really even resembles growth is that her obsession waned down, but only a little.

But however much people think Bella's a Mary Sue, none of it compares to Renesemee. She out does her mother by a mile, she's perfect in every way has no flaws even associated with children like excessive crying or defiance. She comes out perfect and everybody fawns over her.


message 29: by Olivia (new) - added it

Olivia KarmaSc0rpi0n wrote: "Bella went from moderately resembling a Mary Sue to completely being one during Vampirism. As a human she had human flaws that were seen as charming and adorable in the eyes of the other characters..."

i would think that everyone does a have a good point about Bella, that on there, besides ever since she was human she ever been a mary sue, type of thing cause when she was human Edward always wanna her and later on when she was vamp she still was a mary sue cause of the diff things that she had here and there.. so yea i would think that she is like a deff a Mary Sue, type of thing. what does everyone think?


message 30: by Mari (new) - rated it 5 stars

Mari Shadowcat wrote: "From what I know, a Mary Sue is supposed to be someone that is either outrageously talented and flawless, or a completely unrealistic character, or both... A lot of people are criticizing Bella for..."

No. Actually, oddly enough it is people like Katniss Everdeen, or Daenerys Traegeryn that are complete Mary Sues. They are beautiful, always respected by everyone, never made fun of, they always get their way, and every single hot man is in love with them. On the other hand Bella is smart, but realistically so for her age. She becomes powerful over time, at great risk to herself, and at a price. Most of the gorgeous vampires are described as having their own mates, the only two supernaturals that are interested in her are Jacob and Edward. The rest do not see her as a potential mate. Compare that to most supernatural romances like say the Sookie Stackhouse tragedy where every single vampire, werewolf, fairy, or whatever that is described as hot is into her. So Nope.


message 31: by KarmaSc0rpi0n (last edited Dec 21, 2016 05:04PM) (new) - rated it 2 stars

KarmaSc0rpi0n Mari wrote: "Shadowcat wrote: "From what I know, a Mary Sue is supposed to be someone that is either outrageously talented and flawless, or a completely unrealistic character, or both... A lot of people are cri..."

I don't know much about Daenerys Traegeryn, but not everyone loves and respects Katniss. In fact that's kind of her issue is that she's not likable, but Peeta is which is why he does most of the talking when they need to persuade an audience. Also her cold demeanor is what grates on quite a few readers nerves. She's definitely not a Mary Sue who is perfect and seen as perfect. She has many flaws that have consequences to them. And she definitely didn't get everything she wants in the end, if so then she, Prim, Gale and Peeta would been one big happy family with zero worries, (sound familiar) but she doesn't, her life is in shambles by the end and she has to slow pick them up and unlike Bella she at least tries and Katniss had every legitimate reason to lie in bed for months, Bella didn't, all she proved to us is that she has a severe mental disorder that she should go see someone about before making life altering decisions such as marriage.

Edit: for some apparent reason this second half got deleted.

But all that aside saying characters you think are mary Sue doesn't prove that Bella isn't a Mary Sue. By definition a Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character, a young or low-rank person who saves the day through unrealistic abilities. Often this character is recognized as an author insert or wish-fulfillment. Bella moderately resembles this at the beginning of the book where she can do no wrong in anybody's eyes and if someone thinks so, their automatically an unlikable character. Take Jessica, Lauren, and Leah for example. They are people who openly dislike Bella and the main character trait associated with each of them is bitch. But like I said moderately, but this goes full scale when she becomes a vampire and is the best, most powerful of them all and saves the day. None of the explanations give support this and nothing prior to this point would give evidence that this is even plausible, but it happens. You know why? Wish fulfillment, plain and simple. If we were going to live through this character might as well experience the best it has to offer.

But all that aside Mary Sue actually works for this genre. SM said it herself, she wanted Bella to be everyday girl that many can relate to which unfortunately means Mary Sue. People want this fairy tale (using those words lightly) what better way to do it than live vicariously through a self-insert character. There's a reason both Bella and even Edward lack personalities, it's so you can insert anyone you want there. So is she a Mary Sue? Yes. Is that bad? No unless you need character development to enjoy a story.


message 32: by Olivia (new) - added it

Olivia KarmaSc0rpi0n wrote: "Mari wrote: "Shadowcat wrote: "From what I know, a Mary Sue is supposed to be someone that is either outrageously talented and flawless, or a completely unrealistic character, or both... A lot of p..."

(yea very familiar that there, sound like something from Twi that in there with bella in the middle as both Ed and Jake on the other side of her.)

speaking of Bella, if she never came to forks i would think that all those diff love triangles wouldnt have happen, that there and she wouldnt even know about the whole werewolves, vamp, God knows what she gotten herself into that there. but unfortunily she did went all the way to Forks, that there so that were it all begins, and it ends with her, where they all live happly ever after... well so to speak..


message 33: by Mari (new) - rated it 5 stars

Mari Olivia wrote: "KarmaSc0rpi0n wrote: "Mari wrote: "Shadowcat wrote: "From what I know, a Mary Sue is supposed to be someone that is either outrageously talented and flawless, or a completely unrealistic character,…"
If doesn't make any difference, because the plot is what the writer chooses it to be. I can tell by your grammar that you are either very young, or very badly educated. "she did went all the way to Forks" ? And if she was fated to be with Edward, which is heavily implied, she would have met him anyhow. Also, you are not in any way answering the question. But here is a simple test; name another character from any book that resembles Bella. I bet you can't. She is very unique.


message 34: by Mari (new) - rated it 5 stars

Mari KarmaSc0rpi0n wrote: "Mari wrote: "Shadowcat wrote: "From what I know, a Mary Sue is supposed to be someone that is either outrageously talented and flawless, or a completely unrealistic character, or both... A lot of p…"
I am listing the characteristics of a Mry Sue. Not arbitrary characters I "think" are Mary Sues. The characters I listed were just there to help you understand what I meant. The fact that Bella shares absolutely none of the characteristics of Mery Sue's is what proves she is not one. A Mary Sue is essentially someone that the intended reader would wish they were like. Someone everyone looked up to, someone that was the most beautiful in the story. someone men found desirable despite their bad behavior. I mentioned Katniss because two men are fighting over her despite her being uncooperative, unfriendly, pushing them away, being demanding, slow to forgive, and in general the kind of person most people would not want to date. Bella is not Mary Sue, because she doesn't share the descriptors of a Mary Sue; She is not the most beautiful, as all the vampire females are more attractive. She is not desired by all the supernatural men, as all of them, besides Edward and jJcob have other love interests. Saying that this doesn't prove she is not a Mary Sue, is pretty much like saying that if an appliance is designed to make sliced bread into toast is not a toaster.


message 35: by KarmaSc0rpi0n (last edited Oct 20, 2016 02:59PM) (new) - rated it 2 stars

KarmaSc0rpi0n Mari wrote: "KarmaSc0rpi0n wrote: "Mari wrote: "Shadowcat wrote: "From what I know, a Mary Sue is supposed to be someone that is either outrageously talented and flawless, or a completely unrealistic character,..."
Bella shares almost every characteristic with a Mary Sue before her vampire transformation and then shares every trait after it.

Definition: A character, usually found in bad fanfiction, who represents the author within the story. They are generally characterized by a lack of flaws, heavy emphasis on looks, whether exaggerating the character's beauty or downplaying it to the point where it becomes bragging, and the ability to miraculously get everything they could possibly want.

First off she attracts almost every guy she comes into contact with and gets the hottest guy in school despite her plain looks. That alone not only describes wish fulfillment as someone the reader wants to be because it's something extremely tangible yet unlikely, but fills the requirement of the character being extremely beautiful. Despite the fact that the female vampires are more beautiful no one actually treats them as such. Even their significant others don't treat them like the most beautiful creature they've ever seen and the townspeople stay away from them. In fact the male Cullen's treat Bella with more fascination than they do their wives. So that arguments not going to work. This is just an instance (one of many) where Bella downplays herself in order to not seem like what she is: strike one.

Secondly her physical traits literally describes a younger hotter version of the author. She wrote not only herself in the book, but as the main character who has the "fairytale" romance happen to her (wish fulfillment and self-insert): strike two.

Thirdly Bella, though has many flaws I will not go into, but none of them are treated as such. Every character treats her as though she's a perfect angel and if they don't that character is put into a negative light (perfect character): strike three.

Fourthly Bella has no discernible personality, it completely wrapped up into another person who also has no discernible personality, all so that the reader can insert themselves in her position. She has to state her personality traits instead of show them so we know what she is, and despite all that she states seldom does she ever show them. The only discernible trait she actually shows is pretty much obsession and nothing else. There is nothing to her so the reader can put whatever they want in place of her: strike four and we've already been out.

Lastly by the end of the book Bella has everything she wants with doing absolutely no work, sacrifice, or flaws. She's the perfect newborn vampire who isn't rabid for blood. She keeps everything she was supposed to sacrifice to be with Edward (Jacob and her father). Everybody who didn't think of her as the most beautiful creature in the world before now does and always with the line "it suits you". Despite her clumsy stature as a human she is now more graceful than every other vampire. And lets not forget impossible baby which pretty much rings the truest for wish fulfillment because by SM's rules she set for her own world the baby shouldn't even be possible, but it can't be a happy ending if the main couple don't get married and have a baby, so it's there: strike five and no one should have been batting this long.

Bella is a pretty much the embodiment of a Mary Sue just one that got famous because of the medium used. It's a "fairytale" romance that the reader is supposed to want, so the main character is a blank slate the reader can put themselves in place of. Same goes for Edward, he's basically a blank slate the reader can put any one they want in place of.

Also using your logic for why Bella isn't a Mary Sue disproves your argument against Katniss. She's not desired by every man she's desired by two. Everyone else is deterred by those flaws. I think your just more forgiving of Bella because you like her more. Your argument for Katniss should involve more things like she's very monotonous in her thoughts, she's almost unstoppable with a bow despite its inefficient loading time making her very OP, I'm sure there are others, but this isn't about Katniss it's about Bella.

Also i'm not Olivia, but I can answer you this: if you paid enough attention to the types grammatical errors she made you'd know English isn't her first language and if you go to her profile page you'd learn that she's from a country where English isn't the spoken and written language. She's not young, she's just from a different country and you really shouldn't be insulting her intelligence for something that has nothing to do with intelligence.


message 36: by Olivia (new) - added it

Olivia KarmaSc0rpi0n wrote: "Mari wrote: "KarmaSc0rpi0n wrote: "Mari wrote: "Shadowcat wrote: "From what I know, a Mary Sue is supposed to be someone that is either outrageously talented and flawless, or a completely unrealist..."

yea really i mean i think everyone has a good point that out there about bella that there, after everything she done and been though i thinks he one deff mary sue,, if you ask me..


message 37: by Mari (new) - rated it 5 stars

Mari Its really not just this. It seems like absolutely all female characters written after I was born are Mary Sues, besides Bella. In tv/books/ movies seems like every single female is a brilliant scientist, a martial artist, chosen to fight supernatural evil, the best lawyer ever. Its boring. Why do they have to be boring and perfect? Why can't she be working towards a nursing degree, and feel safer with a man walking her home at night? Why can't she not be endowed with ability she did nothing to earn? Why can't she be inexperienced and need someone older and smarter to tell her how to do things and show her the ropes? Why can't she be afraid of loosing the love of a man? Why can't she give up and go into a deep depression if the love of her life leaves her? Why can't she get more vulnerable as she sees more horror, instead of becoming some hardened warrior? Why can't she think that getting a man she thinks is really special to fall in love with her as a very important goal? Maybe the most important goal in her young life? Why can't she be like a real human being?


KarmaSc0rpi0n Mari wrote: "Its really not just this. It seems like absolutely all female characters written after I was born are Mary Sues, besides Bella. "

I can only half agree with you there because Bella is a Mary Sue, but as I said before not necessarily a bad thing for the genre she's written in.

In tv/books/ movies seems like every single female is a brilliant scientist, a martial artist, chosen to fight supernatural evil, the best lawyer ever. Its boring.

What you're descibing are tropes and characters written like that aren't loved because of those tropes, their loved because they're more than that trope. Plenty of female characters are written like that and a lot of them flop in sales/box offices/ratings and panned by critics. It's the ones that are written with more to them them that become successful.

Why do they have to be boring and perfect?

That's an odd question considering Bella and the Cullen's are easily described like this. I think you need to expand your entertainment options because trust me they're not all boring and perfect. Maybe start with Community because the characters there for damn sure aren't perfect or boring.

Why can't she be working towards a nursing degree, and feel safer with a man walking her home at night?

I don't know what's supposed to be weak about a nursing degree, but there are plenty of strong very flawed female and male characters that are either nurses or working to be one, but they're probably not seen often in media because it's a very common thing to see in real life and there's really nothing new to bring it. Same goes with safer walking home with a man at night, really nothing new (which means boring) and it puts the character in box in which they now can never be seen at night alone. Also in weird sense perpetuates rape culture in that from now on if she's walking alone at night and something happens it is now thought of as her fault for not taking a man to protect her with her.

Why can't she not be endowed with ability she did nothing to earn?

That is the literal definition of a boring character. Why do you think more people like Batman more than Superman? Because he had to work and train for years to get his abilities, he wasn't just born indestructible.

Why can't she be inexperienced and need someone older and smarter to tell her how to do things and show her the ropes?

That literally happens all the time we just don't see it on screen or in books because that's not where the action (interesting part) starts. Buffy, she had to learn a lot and needed Giles to help her learn the ropes of vampire slaying. Harry Potter every single one of those characters needed to learn how to use magic from older smarter people. Even Katniss learned her abilities from her father and some from Gale before becoming the expert she is.

Why can't she be afraid of loosing the love of a man?

It's shown, but in the light it should be, as weak and pathetic. This is the type of trait that leads to desperation, the type that leads women to getting pregnant in order to trap a man so she won't lose him or in my grandmother's case kicking her children out of the house because if she didn't her boyfriend would break up with her. Dropping people who having always been there for you all for the love of a man is a) not worth it, b) pathetic, and c) is often the first sign that you need help because that man is more than likely abusive if he's isolating you and usually says you're emotionally unstable.

Why can't she give up and go into a deep depression if the love of her life leaves her?

Because that's it end of story. She gets depressed and either moves on or kills herself there's nothing else to write, it's extremely predictable and boring. The only way it's interesting is if she moves on because there's many ways to do that, but ruins the "love of her life" aspect.

Why can't she get more vulnerable as she sees more horror, instead of becoming some hardened warrior?

Because again there's nothing you can do with that, someone who gets more vulnerable especially in in life or death situations expires real quickly. This is the type of person that ends up in a mental facility without a coherent thought and that can only go on so long before people get annoyed and bored.

Why can't she think that getting a man she thinks is really special to fall in love with her as a very important goal? Maybe the most important goal in her young life? Why can't she be like a real human being?

Because that man is usually not as special as she thinks he is and once she realizes who he truly is, he's already in love with her because he too has learned who she is. Love isn't a goal in life because it's not somethings you have to work at, it's just there. What you have to work at maintaining relationships because people grow and change and people have to adapt to that growth and change. If you have to work at getting someone to fall in love with you then it's usually not meant to be, you can't force someone to love you, but what you can do is let someone get to know you and decide for themselves if they love you. Also real human beings have more going on in their lives besides romance. They have career goals, life goals and other things, romance is apart of life, not their entire life. Plus if we're talking entertainment, the point is to get away from real life which this book does splendidly with is very unrealistic aspects that don't even stem from it being a book about vampires and briefly werewolves/shapeshifters.

However all the things you just mentioned are in the entertainment world, they're just not things that are going to be getting critical acclaim anytime soon.


message 39: by Olivia (new) - added it

Olivia KarmaSc0rpi0n wrote: "Mari wrote: "Its really not just this. It seems like absolutely all female characters written after I was born are Mary Sues, besides Bella. "

I can only half agree with you there because Bella is..."


now that is very good point that up there and right up 2 the point of everything that is rl that out there and everywhere. cause ever since bella came into forks, i think she was really the one that started everything between both vamp and werewolvew/shapshifters type of thing.. so yea


KarmaSc0rpi0n Lover of Literature wrote: "No, not at all"

Elaborate, what part of special snowflake character who everyone either loves or is in love with and those who don't who are seen in a negative light doesn't, all the while spending valuable word space with contradictions trying to convince readers that there's nothing special about her doesn't scream Mary Sue to you? I mean she's definitely no Renesemee, but she reaches those levels especially after her transformation.

Explain your reasoning.


message 41: by Olivia (new) - added it

Olivia KarmaSc0rpi0n wrote: "Lover of Literature wrote: "No, not at all"

Elaborate, what part of special snowflake character who everyone either loves or is in love with and those who don't who are seen in a negative light do..."


yea that would be rather true there, cause everything was her when she was human then after her trasformation, to a vamp that just like total change, everything from being a human too vamp that she really wanted to be in.


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