¡ POETRY ! discussion

220 views
YOU'VE GOTTA READ THIS POEM! > Kim Addonizio: Prayer

Comments Showing 1-50 of 52 (52 new)    post a comment »
« previous 1

message 1: by Melissa (last edited Aug 25, 2016 01:34PM) (new)

Melissa (Melissaharl) Another favorite from her book Tell Me. An emotion this powerful is more often called 'maternal' perhaps than what this expresses.

Prayer

Sometimes, when we're lying after love,
I look at you and see your body's future
of lying beneath the earth; putting the heel
of my hand against your rib I feel how faint
and far away the heartbeat is. I rest
my cheek against your left nipple and listen
to the surge of blood, seeing your life splashed out,
filmy water hurled from a pot
onto dry grass. And I want to be pressed
deep into the bed and covered over,
the way a seed is pressed into a hole,
the dirt tramped down with a trowel.
I want to be a failed seed, the kind
that doesn't grow, that doesn't know it's meant to.
I want to lie here without moving, lifeless
as an animal that's slaughtered, its blood smeared
on a doorpost, I want death to take me if it
has to, to spare you, I want it to pass over.


message 2: by Robert (last edited Aug 25, 2016 01:34PM) (new)

Robert (rgbatduke) | 72 comments Thank you. Worth a read or four...

rgb


message 3: by Melissa (last edited Aug 25, 2016 01:34PM) (new)

Melissa (Melissaharl) Her line "I want to be a failed seed" really gets me. It speaks against the more expected type of hopeful prayer to sprout up again with new life. I also admire the combination of physicality and a more spiritual yearning.


message 4: by Robert (last edited Aug 25, 2016 01:34PM) (new)

Robert (rgbatduke) | 72 comments There are lots of great things. "Filmy water hurled from a pot onto dry grass". "an animal that's slaughtered, its blood smeared on a doorpost". A wish to suspend the rules of time and space and live in the perfect instant forever, an expression of the almost "pagan" love that would sacrifice anything for the other, an implicit idolatry.

Like I said, worth a read or four. The grave as a garden, but one that is barren of all fruit. The blood sacrifice. Death pass over. The fragility of flesh, the transience of the moment -- contrasted with its eternity, expressed (among other ways) in the lines of the poem itself, hoping for:

...this miracle have might,
That in black ink my love may still shine bright.

rgb


message 5: by Melissa (last edited Aug 25, 2016 01:34PM) (new)

Melissa (Melissaharl) Great comment, rgb, thanks


message 6: by Ruth (last edited Aug 25, 2016 01:35PM) (new)

Ruth | 5063 comments Wow. This knocks my sox off. Written in blood. So honest, so beautiful, so deep it's scary.

R


message 7: by Eric (last edited Aug 25, 2016 01:35PM) (new)

Eric Kelderman | 5 comments one of my favorites of hers is:

"What Do Women Want?"

I want a red dress.
I want it flimsy and cheap,
I want it too tight, I want to wear it
until someone tears it off me.
I want it sleeveless and backless,
this dress, so no one has to guess
what's underneath. I want to walk down
the street past Thrifty's and the hardware store
with all those keys glittering in the window,
past Mr. and Mrs. Wong selling day-old
donuts in their café, past the Guerra brothers
slinging pigs from the truck and onto the dolly,
hoisting the slick snouts over their shoulders.
I want to walk like I'm the only
woman on earth and I can have my pick.
I want that red dress bad.
I want it to confirm
your worst fears about me,
to show you how little I care about you
or anything except what
I want. When I find it, I'll pull that garment
from its hanger like I'm choosing a body
to carry me into this world, through
the birth-cries and the love-cries too,
and I'll wear it like bones, like skin,
it'll be the goddamned
dress they bury me in.


message 8: by Ruth (last edited Aug 25, 2016 01:35PM) (new)

Ruth | 5063 comments That's one of my favorite poems, Eric. Isn't it great? So strong and defiant. I wish I'd had an ounce of that when I was young and fair.

R


message 9: by Jefferson (new)

Jefferson Carter Well, Ruth, she ain't young and fair no more. It's a problem because her defiant edge no longer fits her maturing body and face. I hope she stops the punk posturing and settles into a more profound and adult persona. I took a workshop from her several years ago in Prescott, and she gave a reading wearing a worn black dress, combat boots, and tattoos like razor wire up and down her arms. It looked silly.


message 10: by Rob the Obscure (new)

Rob the Obscure | 1906 comments Wow


message 11: by Dan Simmons (new)

Dan Simmons | 26 comments Love the dress poem, hate the prayer poem. Interesting.


message 12: by Rob the Obscure (new)

Rob the Obscure | 1906 comments Love 'em both! Masterworks.


message 13: by Rose (new)

Rose Boehm (rosemaryboehm) | 2668 comments Jefferson, this is a sentiment on your (male) part I can understand. I say "male" only as in "male" relating to "female" - not as in feminism. There you are, she wants that red dress but never dared. I suggest she dresses "down" because it was the fashion at "her time" and because she doesn't dare to wear that red dress and never did (dare).

I feel that her poem very much reflect a woman's yearning, a need to be that derided 'sex object' and not having to put on that overall modern (intelligent, intellectual) woman is expected to wear. She, a poet, can at least express her "inner Naomi Campbell" in this form, and in this terrific poem, every word, every line is a deep truth about all of us, and perhaps every woman who ever was would express herself this way if they had the talent, or simply wear it and flaunt it.

Then there is the fact that we're all prejudiced, and you don't escape it as your comment shows: it is for some people inconceivable that I, a woman of 73 (almost) still dance (well...) when I hear the Beatles or Pink Floyd or listen to Van Morrison or Led Zeppelin, for example. Grannies "don't". I suppose I should have stopped at Shostakovich (max).

I suggest she is comfortable as she is, is allowed (more than most) the flights of the spirit, and it doesn't bloody matter what she wears if that's what she's worn alll her life and feels good in it. Next time close your eyes and just listen.


message 14: by Rob the Obscure (new)

Rob the Obscure | 1906 comments @Rose - you dance to Zeppelin? Which tunes?

I wanna see you dance to "Black Dog". Now that would be somethin'!


message 15: by Rose (new)

Rose Boehm (rosemaryboehm) | 2668 comments You have absolutely no idea... As long as you put it up on Youtube :-)))))


message 16: by Rose (new)

Rose Boehm (rosemaryboehm) | 2668 comments And as far as L.Z. is concerned, Stairways to Heaven is not danceable but one of my favourites of al times.


message 17: by Julia L. (new)

Julia L. (fuddyduddy) | 585 comments You go, Rose.


message 18: by Rose (new)

Rose Boehm (rosemaryboehm) | 2668 comments yipppeeee ... Robert, you're invited.


message 19: by Nina (new)

Nina | 1351 comments Rose-wonderful analysis of the Red Dress poem. You certainly captured many of my inner longings and fears.

I will dance with you any time-I am a Grammy and a band chick.


message 20: by David (new)

David Delaney | 915 comments Pssst!..Rose, it's Stairway to Heaven, & I'm a Grandad rocker eh!...including Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, Iron Butterfly, Slade etc. still have vinyl LP's.


message 21: by Poppy (new)

Poppy | 1323 comments Jefferson wrote: "Well, Ruth, she ain't young and fair no more. It's a problem because her defiant edge no longer fits her maturing body and face. I hope she stops the punk posturing and settles into a more profoun..."

Jefferson - I don't know this poet, but I think you are very perceptive about her posturing. Sticks out in every direction in both poems - for me, at least. Thanks for helping me see what bothered me.


message 22: by Rose (new)

Rose Boehm (rosemaryboehm) | 2668 comments David wrote: "Pssst!..Rose, it's Stairway to Heaven, & I'm a Grandad rocker eh!...including Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, Iron Butterfly, Slade etc. still have vinyl LP's."


Just gave two big boxes of LPs to my son. Thank God I didn't typo Led Zeppelin!!! Or I would have been beaten with Jefferson's paddle. :-)))

Those LPs contain the original concert from Bangladesh and the very originals of Cat Stevens... : Tea for the Tillerman and Teaser and the Firecat.

Now the woe of the oldies: THEY DON'T MAKE'EM LIKE THAT ANY MORE


message 23: by Julia L. (new)

Julia L. (fuddyduddy) | 585 comments Does anyone out there like the sound produced by these old vinyl albums better than the pristine, "cleaned up" remakes we hear now? I have LaBoheme with Arturo Toscanini conducting Jan Peerce and Lucia Albanese and I can hear him humming with the orchestra in many places in the overture. Lovely, even off key.


message 24: by Rose (new)

Rose Boehm (rosemaryboehm) | 2668 comments I agree completely, Julie. But they are two different species for different purposes, I think.

I have given my LPs to my son because he, too, appreciates them as they are AND because in my travels they become a bit too much of a burden AND I have 'lost' two 'record players' and they are difficult to come by in Peru.

Here it's like the old ladies once in the UK who sold all their wonderful old furniture for a penny to proudly acquire formica tops and plastic.

Can anyone remember the old phonogramme? We had one, on legs, and you hade to put in the needles into this heavy-headed arm with that round bit at the end, and they scratched their way across the record. I remember we had one of the very first ones which Benjamino Gigli dared to make.


message 25: by Jeff (new)

Jeff | 220 comments Rose wrote: "I agree completely, Julie. But they are two different species for different purposes, I think.

I have given my LPs to my son because he, too, appreciates them as they are AND because in my travel..."


I bought a quadraphonic system back in the Seveties and it is still going, original speakes even. It used a 30,000 Hz carrier frequency to decode the extra channels, and to do that I'm pretty sure the analoge sound is more accurate that the digital approximations we are using now. My son says vinyl is making a comeback in his 21-year-old circles.

Rose, I've been reading some ML von Franz ideas about individuation, and your ideas about the poems above sure fit in with what she has to say about anima and animus. That whole approach is very different from the way I have viewed male and female brain patterns. I can tell where I'm at in my brain by how I feel about being the taker or the taken, the object or the objectifier. I can wander all over the field, and mostly seek sameness or equality now rather than the heirarchical relationship. I definitely wanted to be taken when I was younger, leading as far as sado-masochistic fantasies. Those died completely in that experience a couple years ago.


message 26: by Rob the Obscure (new)

Rob the Obscure | 1906 comments I think traditional American classical music (i.e. jazz) sounds better on vinyl - warmer, more open. Some european classical also does. Most modern stuff that is being issued on vinyl does not sound better to me.

What I primarily miss about vinyl, though, is the significant art work, well-written liner notes, inner sleeves, etc. that we used to get on vinyl albums. In the 70s, I built quite an encyclopedic knowledge of rock and jazz primarily just from poring over liner notes on the albums I bought.


message 27: by Rose (new)

Rose Boehm (rosemaryboehm) | 2668 comments Jeff wrote: "Rose wrote: "I agree completely, Julie. But they are two different species for different purposes, I think.

I have given my LPs to my son because he, too, appreciates them as they are AND becau..."


Jeff, sometimes I thought that this thing about "making the first move" and who makes it and how has perhaps a lot to do with how we've been introduced to sex/sin/shame.

If he/she makes that first move, even almost violently, we are not really responsible, are we, we are the "victims" of a sexual predator and have a good excuse to enjoy it wwithout having to feel guilty ...???

So, once we grow out of the guilt/sin/shame cycle - is it then we can take responsibility for expressing desire without feeling bad about it?

Just a musing on my part, I thought about this some, always found it an interesting conundrum.


message 28: by Jeff (new)

Jeff | 220 comments Rose wrote: "Jeff wrote: "Rose wrote: "I agree completely, Julie. But they are two different species for different purposes, I think.

Rose, I'm quite certain the S/M stuff comes out of shame and repression of natural desires. From what I've read, acting out the S/M stuff is considered a spiritual path by those in the Gay community who are into it.



message 29: by Rob the Obscure (new)

Rob the Obscure | 1906 comments Repression always erupts - somehow.


message 30: by Jeff (new)

Jeff | 220 comments Robert wrote: "Repression always erupts - somehow."

In that direction, I really enjoyed Alejandro Jodorowsky's "Psychomagic: The Transformative Power of Shamanic Psychotherapy". I've found acting things out can be very theraputic, even if it is ritualistic.


message 31: by Rose (new)

Rose Boehm (rosemaryboehm) | 2668 comments Yes, read it. Jodorowsky is some fine thinker AND aparently his stuff works. I know people who've been to see him in Paris.


message 32: by Marian (new)

Marian (gramma) | 366 comments For millenia people have had religious rituals that connected them from the earthly plain to the spiritual. In recent times, processions on saints days, blessing of the fields at planting time. In early America revivals that lasted several days, baptism in local rivers & lakes (when my mother was baptized in the Kentucky river, she had poison ivy on one arm & it was wrapped securely in bandages, she was teased about running around in Heaven with a missing arm (at age 12, she was really worried.)


message 33: by Rob the Obscure (new)

Rob the Obscure | 1906 comments Marian wrote: "For millenia people have had religious rituals that connected them from the earthly plain to the spiritual. In recent times, processions on saints days, blessing of the fields at planting time. In..."

Marian, do you think S/M role playing falls into this category?


message 34: by Marian (new)

Marian (gramma) | 366 comments When you look at the "flagelantes" who went from town to town beating themselves because they believed sinfulness had caused the Black Death - or good looking young woman who were accused of being witches because when men looked at them & got aroused, yes there is a relation to S/M, even though the people practicing it had convinced themselves it was a religious revealation.


message 35: by Joan (new)

Joan Colby (joancolby) | 789 comments Rose: Wonderful defense of this astounding poem.


message 36: by Dylan CC (new)

Dylan CC | 1127 comments Stepping back a few posts to the music - I am fascinated by older methods of production and recording. I have a nice digital set up and outboard gear and etc etc etc...but there is a sound in the production of old recordings that cannot be matched. More than just tape saturation and channel strips. It's about where to place mic's. A great many excellent records were recorded 'live' in the studio with 2-4 microphones, musicians who knew how to play and approach a mic, and engineers and producers who knew how to make the recording correctly.

I'm actually in the process of breaking down my studio to try and recapture some of these sounds. There should be less interest in precise reverb and equalization on a snare drum, and more emphasis on musicianship and overall sound - the interaction of the instruments together, rather than as separate entities layered on one another.

OK - off my soap box. Carry on.


message 37: by Rose (new)

Rose Boehm (rosemaryboehm) | 2668 comments Well, what you hear is ONE performance with all the possible off-pitches, missed beats, slight whatnots, just as happens. Yes, the mikes were placed to capture as best all comers and mixing was in its infancy. The authenticity and immediacy is what attracts us, I suspect.

Now - and I've been at so many (boring) recordings - every "take" is repeated if it's not perfect, often whole performances are repeated and then "cut" together to pick out the best of the bunch ... it's all (like everything else) become a little "plastic"? A little "fake"? The girl with silicone tits?

When you look at them they are amazing. I dare you touch them. (Well, I have as a girl friend as in 'have a go, they are brill...') Brilliant, perfect... dead?


message 38: by Dylan CC (new)

Dylan CC | 1127 comments Rose - exactly. A perfectly constructed and over produced song is just that. Perfectly constructed and over produced.

I've previously stated my love of Neil Young for many of these same reasons.


message 39: by Rose (new)

Rose Boehm (rosemaryboehm) | 2668 comments Where's the passion? I think that's what's missing... imperfections and a snese of humour.


message 40: by Dylan CC (new)

Dylan CC | 1127 comments I recently read an interview with a famous guitarist. He was recording a new album on 2" tape - which is very nearly unheard of now with digital recording and all. He speculated that it might be one of the last rock albums recorded on 2" tape (gasp).

I found one of his statements about modern recording to be particularly telling. He said that you leave the studio at the end of the session having done your tracks and listened to the playback and what have you, and come back the next day, and the recording sounds totally different. He said the reason is that the engineers using Protools (an industry standard platform for digital recording) stay up all night tweaking and adjusting and massaging and perfecting the signal, so by the time you hear it the next day - it's not at all the sound that was recorded the day before. The performance suffers in place of the production.

I'm all for a well produced recording, but too many are so far over produced that it's not the original signal at all.

Such as it is.


message 41: by M (new)

M | 1656 comments I always said music went downhill with the advent of electricity.


message 42: by Rob the Obscure (last edited Mar 30, 2011 06:04PM) (new)

Rob the Obscure | 1906 comments Dylan CC wrote: "Stepping back a few posts to the music - I am fascinated by older methods of production and recording. I have a nice digital set up and outboard gear and etc etc etc...but there is a sound in the ..."

You are so right. The absolute legendary master at this was Rudy Van Gelder. He was obsessive and incredibly insightful on mic placement. Any album he engineered is in demand for that reason alone - HE engineered it.

The Beatles were key innovators in pop engineering. For example, listen to Abbey Road (whether you like the music itself or not), and the production, blend, sound, warmth, balance, etc. will astound you, and then astound you again when you realize that it was recorded on 8 TRACK REEL TO REEL! Today, studios have 64 or more tracks.

The Beatles engineer invented Artificial Double Tracking, I believe during the recording of the Revolver album.

Look...don't get me started on this shit.


message 43: by Dylan CC (new)

Dylan CC | 1127 comments I think Jimmy Page was a hell of an innovator in mic placement, but then maybe he stole some of those tricks from previous greats.

And Abbey Road - I can scarcely listen to the side 2 suite. It's just too much. Too beautiful. It destroys me. I listen to that, and I'm worthless for days. I've got either 24 or 36 tracks on my machine, and don't think I've ever used more than 8-10. And that was excessive.

Robert - send me your email. I've got a recording you might like to hear.


message 44: by Rob the Obscure (new)

Rob the Obscure | 1906 comments Yes, I've frequently recorded on 8 - 10 tracks. But trust me...not with a sound like the 2nd side of Abbey Road. 100 tracks wouldn't be enough (smile)


message 45: by Nina (new)

Nina | 1351 comments Here, There and Everywhere: My Life Recording the Music of the Beatles

Fascinating book for those of you interested in recording


message 46: by Poppy (new)

Poppy | 1323 comments All of these comments simply confirm my belief that there is NOTHING like LIVE music. OTH, I am so grateful for recordings of any kind - which allow the general public to become acquainted with great music of all kinds. I have lived through the sparseness of Edison recordings, the tangled mess of wire recording, the unavailability of LPs, on to 8 track, 45s, tapes, CDs and the proliferation has let me hear composers and performers that I might never be able to hear in person. I love my CDs, but then my hearing isn't what it used to be, either.


message 47: by Rose (new)

Rose Boehm (rosemaryboehm) | 2668 comments Robert wrote: "Dylan CC wrote: "Stepping back a few posts to the music - I am fascinated by older methods of production and recording. I have a nice digital set up and outboard gear and etc etc etc...but there i..."

The Beatles' mago was George Martin.


message 48: by Rob the Obscure (new)

Rob the Obscure | 1906 comments George Martin from a production standpoint, and arrangements. However, from a recording standpoint one also has to point to Geoff Emerick (sp?).

@Nina - that is indeed a fascinating book.


message 49: by Rose (new)

Rose Boehm (rosemaryboehm) | 2668 comments George M. was very much involved in the engineering side. He was the one with the magic wand. They even resurrected him and pressed him into service for the Paul McCartney (not quite because he took credit were credit wasn't due) oevre "Give My Regards to Broadstreet" to make it sound right AND work with the recording engineers which was mostly stuff from Wings, but also warmed-up Beatle numbers.


message 50: by Rose (new)

Rose Boehm (rosemaryboehm) | 2668 comments http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_f0D-...

for those who've never heard of the film...


« previous 1
back to top