Twilight (Twilight, #1) Twilight discussion


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nice guys finish last...

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message 1: by Kirby (last edited Nov 22, 2011 09:06PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Kirby you know how it's sometimes said that a lot of women say they want nice, sensitive guys, but so very often end up w/ complete jerks? well, from my own observations, this seems to be one of those stereotypes that has some truth to it...

could this be part of bella's and some readers' attraction to edward? where he's so hot and cold w/ her in the beginning, and can be kind of controlling and overprotective...while jacob started out showing interest and affection, and gave her freedom?

just an idle speculation


message 2: by Kali (new) - rated it 1 star

Kali The nice guys finish last stereotype was created by whiny douchebags who think they're nice, but are actually terrible people who think the world owes them something.

Regarding Twilight, I would say Bella's attraction to Edward was in spite of him being a jerk, not because of it.


Carolyn Since we're talking about teenager romance with supernatural beings, I think real-life "rules" don't apply here.

And for the record, we like nice, but not needy. ;)


Kirby hmmm...you really don't think it's true that aggressive, sometimes mean, people get ahead faster in life than laid back gentle ones? I need to move to wherever you live, cause that's sure as hell the way it works in my life.

and, I wonder then why so many women I know go for jerks when they have nice, not needy guys waiting in the wings...seriously, no one else has that smart pretty girlfriend w/ the abusive man? or that really nice guy friend who can't get a girl to save his life? well, I'll be damned...

and, I'm pretty sure that real-life rules do apply- as I said, bella is FAR from being the only girl to go nuts over edward...what's your theory as to why so many girls want a guy just like edward?


message 5: by Kali (new) - rated it 1 star

Kali The really nice guy friend who actually talks about the nice guys finish last thing is a whiny, manipulative, douchebag. Genuinely nice people don't go on about how great and nice they are, but no one appreciates it.

People with abusive partners is a more complex issue, but they're not attracted to them because of the abuse. Generally (and this is a very broad generalisation), abusive people manipulate their partners into believing that unhappiness is normal, making them abnormally grateful for the least show of niceness from them.

As for why so many girls go for him - that's what he's designed for. He's the perfect hunter. He's also good looking, as are all vampires.


message 6: by [deleted user] (new)

Kali wrote: "The nice guys finish last stereotype was created by whiny douchebags who think they're nice, but are actually terrible people who think the world owes them something."

Yeah, I can't agree with this.

I have known plenty of girls who have told me through conversation that they have dumped guys because they were "too nice". Not because they were "needy" or obsessive, but "too nice".

There is a reason why a percentage of women throw themselves at drunk and drugged up rock stars to used up like a wet napkin. There is a reason why a percentage of women stay with a man who beats the hell out of them.

You can't sit there and claim that a large portion of girls don't want to be with "the bad boy".

And any woman who wants a love affair with a man like Edward is psychotic.


message 7: by Kali (last edited Nov 23, 2011 09:35AM) (new) - rated it 1 star

Kali I didn't say that women who like bad boys don't exist, or that people who are too needy (which translates to nice) are unattractive. I mean the specific myth of the nice guy who girls look over, which is so often co-opted by whiny douchebag teens (or even older people), who use it as an excuse for everything bad in their lives. The people who think they're nice, but are actually creepy, manipulative, and selfish.

If someone really wanted to be with another person, their being too nice would not be the one and only thing that split them up.


Kirby these real nice guys I'm talking about never called themselves nice, I'm telling you they are nice- not needy, not whiny, not douchebags- just NICE and LONELY!


Kirby and you can't claim the vampire predatory stuff for why so many of the readers fall in love with him. so, he's described as handsome- so is jacob. why do they fall so head over heels w/ edward in particular? just b/c bella did?


message 10: by Kali (new) - rated it 1 star

Kali Perhaps they need less of your pity, and you blaming all of womankind, and more of a hobby, then?


Kirby no, they need less women going for meat heads. they need less women calling them douchebags.


message 12: by Kali (last edited Nov 23, 2011 09:47AM) (new) - rated it 1 star

Kali Kirby wrote: "just b/c bella did? "

Well, yes. Edward is constantly presented as the better choice because Bella chooses him and it's from her point of view. Plus, for lonely teenage girls, there is an appeal in a guy who can't not love you (due to the mate bond).

Besides which, your theory doesn't work. You're looking at groups of people who've liked the books, and felt strongly enough about it to say that they prefer Edward. You can't claim that means that women generally prefer people like Edward, for any reason. What about all the women who think he's creepy, or didn't like the books, or didn't read them, or just didn't have strong enough opinions to post? What about team Jacob?


Carolyn Wow.

My theory of why girls want a guy just like Edward: BECAUSE HE IS A FANTASY!!! Guys just like Edward DON'T EXIST. He is unnaturally attractive (cuz he's a Vampire!), he is rich and has expensive cars, he displays old fashioned chivalry (cuz he's a 100 year-old Vampire!) and he can just "appear" (cuz he's a Vampire!) and rescue the damsel in distress from bad guys/things (cuz he's a Vampire!).

Your comment "no one else has that smart pretty girlfriend with the abusive man?" says a lot. First off, a woman who stays with an abusive man does not fit my definition of smart. You want real life overgeneralizing? Okay, I know a lot of "nice guys" who CLAIM they just want a nice girl, but if she is not a size 4, or doesn't have flawless skin, teeth, and features, then those same nice guys aren't interested. Some "nice guys" can be just as shallow as the women who go for "bad boys".


message 14: by [deleted user] (last edited Nov 23, 2011 09:53AM) (new)

Carolyn wrote: "Okay, I know a lot of "nice guys" who CLAIM they just want a nice girl, but if she is not a size 4, or doesn't have flawless skin, teeth, and features, then those same nice guys aren't interested"

I don't blame them. Just because they are nice doesn't mean they have to date a 300 pound woman with blotches on her flesh and meth mouth.


Kirby Carolyn wrote: "Wow.

My theory of why girls want a guy just like Edward: BECAUSE HE IS A FANTASY!!! Guys just like Edward DON'T EXIST. He is unnaturally attractive (cuz he's a Vampire!), he is rich and has e..."


I know lots of people who are intellectually smart but emotionally stupid...I still consider them smart though. even geniuses make idiotic decisions, right?

and who exactly is classifying these guys as nice? as I said, the ones I'm referring to don't call themselves nice, and they don't dismiss women based on appearance...though, of course, like anyone, they'd like an attractive partner.


Kirby Kali wrote: "Kirby wrote: "just b/c bella did? "

Well, yes. Edward is constantly presented as the better choice because Bella chooses him and it's from her point of view. Plus, for lonely teenage girls, ther..."


well, perhaps I can buy that, and perhaps I'm stupid for trying to connect women/girls' literary romantic choices w their real life romantic choices. I've just never (in my lifetime) seen so many females go so nuts over a fictional character, and I find it hard to believe that no parallels can be drawn to real life behavior. also, I only referred to the fans who HAVE been very vocal in their support of edward- of course my theory falls apart if YOU stretch it beyond what I intended. and I never said (nor thought) it was ALL women who do this- just enough for me to have made the observation. that could be where the team jacob comes in. but then wouldn't that invalidate your first point about why they choose edward?


message 17: by Gerd (last edited Nov 23, 2011 11:08AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Gerd Carolyn wrote: " I know a lot of "nice guys" who CLAIM they just want a nice girl, but if she is not a size 4, or doesn't have flawless skin, teeth, and features, then those same nice guys aren't interested. Some "nice guys" can be just as shallow as the women who go for "bad boys"..."

But then they ain't really "nice"? Are they?


However, generally I agree with the saying that nice guys finish last. Relationships are a competitive sport, and competitions can't be won by being nice.
The question remaining to be asked is naturally:
But is that of any importance?
Isn't finishing at all not enough?

But nice people are often also boring people; and yet they do not want to hook up with somebody their size, but are constantly searching in the wrong league. So, if they can't find a partner, it's not that the women are too selective (or not selective enough it seems to suggest if they fall for the "bad guy" instead) - it's more likely that our hypothetical nice guy is just looking in all the wrong places.


If we take Jacob, though, he is nice, ay - up to the point when he wants more than Bella has to offer. Bells is _not_ putting him down, she's holding on to their friendship even beyond the point where Jacob deserves it. He's not the nice guy that finishes last, he's a push-over that puts his own wants and needs above everything else.


Kirby Gerd wrote: "Carolyn wrote: " I know a lot of "nice guys" who CLAIM they just want a nice girl, but if she is not a size 4, or doesn't have flawless skin, teeth, and features, then those same nice guys aren't i..."

ok, that's a good point about jacob, he's not really like the real life guys I was talking about- perhaps I should have left him out of it...

and these guys I know would LOVE to finish at all...but they're not rich enough or handsome enough, or perhaps not interesting enough- though I think they're smart and wonderful conversationalists. but that's about all women seem to want from them- someone to unload all of their issues on so they can move on to the next borderline abusive guy...one of 'em says he's starting to feel like jesus XD


Kirby this is not completely related, but it lends some credence to my "nice guys finish last" idea- I recently read about nice guys earning a lot less in the workplace- here's one article about it

http://www.livescience.com/15575-nice...


Carolyn Paul wrote: .I don't blame them. Just because they are nice doesn't mean they have to date a 300 pound woman with blotches on her flesh and meth mouth. "

And most women don't want to date 300 lb men with splotchy skin and bad teeth either (even if they're nice guys). However, the extreme example you use does not describe the average looking woman.


Kirby Paul wrote: "Carolyn wrote: "Okay, I know a lot of "nice guys" who CLAIM they just want a nice girl, but if she is not a size 4, or doesn't have flawless skin, teeth, and features, then those same nice guys are..."

ha ha, I completely got your point, but just realized the incongruity of anyone w/ meth mouth being 300 lbs- is that even possible?! they'd have to have started at 600 or something, right? :)


message 22: by [deleted user] (new)

There are fat meth heads. I have seen some in Documentaries.


Kirby Paul wrote: "There are fat meth heads. I have seen some in Documentaries."

oh, sorry...I didn't know they existed- guess all the ones I've seen are skin and bones.


message 24: by Kali (new) - rated it 1 star

Kali Kirby wrote: "also, I only referred to the fans who HAVE been very vocal in their support of edward- of course my theory falls apart if YOU stretch it beyond what I intended. and I never said (nor thought) it was ALL women who do this- just enough for me to have made the observation. that could be where the team jacob comes in. but then wouldn't that invalidate your first point about why they choose edward? "

Your theory is, people who like Edward like Edward?


Kirby Kali wrote: "Kirby wrote: "also, I only referred to the fans who HAVE been very vocal in their support of edward- of course my theory falls apart if YOU stretch it beyond what I intended. and I never said (nor ..."

oh, wait...now, dang it, you've got me all confused! I don't think I was saying that? I think all I was trying to say is that thinking about how so many females went nuts about edward- enough to get tatoos and crazy shit like that- led me to speculate that it MIGHT be related to the way that a lot of females go for jerks (based on the people in my life- I may be wrong about that too)...but perhaps you have bested me here and my idea had no validity to begin with...in which case I apologize for wasting your time.


message 26: by Lena (new) - rated it 2 stars

Lena I always thought it was about the thrill of the chase. A 'bad boy' is the same as a guy or girl playing hard to get. Some people will always want what they can't have--bad boys have the reputation of being unattainable, and therefore desirable (not necessarily the person himself, but the aspect of 'winning' when you snag him). Although I'm not sure that applies to Bella & Edward. I agree w/ the person who said people love Edward because he is a fantasy.


Kirby Lena wrote: "I always thought it was about the thrill of the chase. A 'bad boy' is the same as a guy or girl playing hard to get. Some people will always want what they can't have--bad boys have the reputation ..."

I agree, I've always thought it was largely about the chase, the feeling of actually winning something...some people don't want love that's always freely given. but, it was actually edward's "hot/cold" routine w/ bella in the beginning that got me to thinking about all this...so I think it does apply in this case. and does that mean that it's part of the fantasy to not feel completely secure in a relationship? like, they might go aloof on you, or leave you completely? or is the fantasy much more about his looks, money, and power?


Molly Kirby wrote: "Kali wrote: "Kirby wrote: "also, I only referred to the fans who HAVE been very vocal in their support of edward- of course my theory falls apart if YOU stretch it beyond what I intended. and I nev..."

Edward is emotional porn. He is written to be emotional porn for women. He is described as gorgeous, rich, and completely and utterly devoted to Bella (the reader). He lives to make all her wildest dreams come true, and he'll do anything for her. He can't live without her, he'll never glance at one of the prettier girls, and he'll still be devoted to her when she's no longer pretty. His wounded, dark, agnsty self is just part of the neediness. He doesn't just want Bella, he needs her. She is the one thing that brightens his life, and only she can heal him. The danger and the forbidden nature of it all is just something to add thrill and excitement to it. Forbidden things are sexy, because we know we can't have them ad that makes us want them.

Personally, I've had my fill of angsty, overly needy, emotional train wrecks who are hot and cold towards me. I find them exhausting instead of attractive at this point. I love nice guys. I think they're adorable and sexy. The last huge crush I had was on a chubby russian guy named Vanya, who would jokingly begin every sentence with "In Superior Mother Russia," and end with "like bear" just to make me laugh. He was cuddly, and good natured, and I fell very very hard for him. I've met much hotter guys, and I've met smarter guys, but I've never found any of them nearly as attractive as I found him.


message 29: by Lena (new) - rated it 2 stars

Lena @Molly--I like your last paragraph. It made me laugh. I have been known to date guys that my friends call 'trolls'. But my best friend for years was a super nice guy and adorable, too. I don't like the stigma that attractive people are jerks. There are plenty of attractive nice guys and plenty of...what was it--300lb methheads?...who are jerks.

In all these teen romance books with love triangles, both guys are always gorgeous. But as the original post says about Twilight, the girls always seem to pick the bad boy, at least in the recent love triangle trend.


message 30: by Kali (last edited Nov 23, 2011 04:31PM) (new) - rated it 1 star

Kali Kirby wrote: "oh, wait...now, dang it, you've got me all confused! I don't think I was saying that? I think all I was trying to say is that thinking about how so many females went nuts about edward- enough to get tatoos and crazy shit like that- led me to speculate that it MIGHT be related to the way that a lot of females go for jerks (based on the people in my life- I may be wrong about that too)...but perhaps you have bested me here and my idea had no validity to begin with...in which case I apologize for wasting your time.
"


Unless every single person rejecting your friends is on Team Edward, you can't exclude the other groups from your hypothesis. Clearly, there is some other reason, other than "they prefer guys like Edward".

Also, why is Edward the bad boy? He's utterly loyal to Bella; Jacob isn't, as evidenced by his imprinting on her infant daughter. They are both able to kill her, and, arguably, Edward has the greater struggle, as he desires her blood specifically. Edward is more old-fashioned, which, combined with the mate bond, makes him more gentlemanly. Would Jacob insist on waiting for marriage? I doubt he would, but, even if he did, that only makes him equal to Edward regarding sexual activity and prudishness.

Edward is also white, if that counts for anything (it may do, considering Meyers religion), meaning that Bella and Edward do not make up a mixed race relationship, something that is still somewhat controversial.

Personally, I'd class Edward as Betty, and Jacob as Veronica.


message 31: by Kali (new) - rated it 1 star

Kali Interesting thought; traditionally, vampires are seen as very sexualised. Before Dracula became the vampire story, lesbian vampire myths were common, as vampires were seen as erotic creatures which perverted young girls (the utmost symbol of sexual innocence) into deviant habits (such as, being gay. Shock. Horror). This may be a factor in why some people class Edward as the 'bad boy'.

But then, think about werewolf mythology. Werewolves are strongly linked to menstruation, due to their lunar cycle. They've often been used as symbolic of menarche, or becoming a woman. Interestingly, Meyer has gone far away from this; in her version (iirc - I only read Twilight once, years ago, and never saw the films) women cannot activate as wolves, and their sexual is taken from them by the imprinting. Although their emotions aren't directly controlled by it, it does cause them to be groomed into werewolf mates.

That said, Edward has also been neutered, in Meyer's use of vampires. Although Bella is clearly and actively attracted to him, he does not seduce her. He tries to talk her out of a sexual relationship, due to his Christian morals on the matter.

Poor neutered supernatural symbols of sexuality.:(


Molly Lena wrote: "@Molly--I like your last paragraph. It made me laugh. I have been known to date guys that my friends call 'trolls'. But my best friend for years was a super nice guy and adorable, too. I don't like..."


I've been known to date some guys who have been described as less than gorgeous, but I've never been bothered by the looks. I'm hardly Vogue worth myself, and I've found that the more I like someone as a person, the good looking I think they are.

I've met some very nice people who were knock outs. One of the most beautiful girls I know is also by far the nicest person I've ever met. She's one of those people where her biggest character flaw is that she literally is too nice and she gives too much for other people. She felt guilty for getting mad at one of our coworkers after they bailed on covering her shift so she could visit her grandparents for her birthday. And one of my best friends in high school was an adorable guy who was voted Mr. Wonderful by the school girls for being both cute and incredibly nice. He reminded me a lot of my brother, but nicer, and with red hair.

I think part of the girls in recent triangles choosing the dangerous troubled guy is that the dangerous guy is usually the first one. He brings them into the dangerous world of the super natural, and thats where they meet the less threatening, more emotionally supportive, nice guy. Of course, there have been some subversions to that, but not many from what I have read. I think that could be part of it. They've been with the dangerous guy longer, and he introduced them to this exciting and dangerous new world.


Kirby Kali wrote: "Kirby wrote: "oh, wait...now, dang it, you've got me all confused! I don't think I was saying that? I think all I was trying to say is that thinking about how so many females went nuts about edward..."

I don't have time to address your entire post (look forward to doing so later), but do want to explain my reasoning for lumping edward into the "bad boy" category.

a lot of it has to do w/ his initial behavior- like I said, he was VERY hot/cold w/ bella, which I think was a large part of her interest- like we said earlier, sorta the thrill of the chase. he also left her for a while (regardless of the reasons), which I think adds to the uncertainty factor of their relationship. but, yes, you're right that he is eventually unwaveringly loyal to her. perhaps my opinion of him as the bad guy is also b/c of the myriad of posts I've seen where people classify him as abusive. I never entirely agreed w/ this assessment, but there seem to be a lot of people who consider him an abusive boyfriend. and I think that most of his reticence about consummating their relationship was b/c he was afraid of hurting bella. however, yes, I agree that this would make him more of a good guy. as I said, perhaps there were no parallels to be drawn here- it just interested me and I wanted to see if anyone else had had similar thoughts...and it would appear that the answer is no.

is veronica the hot one? I'm not really familiar w/ them...

also, side note: there was a female werewolf in the pack...


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