THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion

191 views
CAMPAIGNS & BATTLES > Market Garden & Overloon

Comments Showing 1-50 of 138 (138 new)    post a comment »
« previous 1 3

message 1: by Singleton (last edited Nov 16, 2011 07:16AM) (new)

Singleton Mosby | 96 comments I'll be making a visit to the Market garden battlefields and museums next week with two friends. I already have a schedule with quite a lot of things but I might have overlooked some important/ interesting sites to visit. If so, please advice.

Here's the plan for the day so far:

- We meet at Gouda station on 9:00 in the morning on sunday the 27th and head east

- From there we drive to Ginkel Heath (on the route) where we have a short stop and look around. It was here some of the first airborne troops landed and a small battle raged on the second day of the battle when the Germans swept the heath clean only to be counterattacked by the British from the woods and another brigade landing from the air at the same time

- We continue onwards to the big museum at Overloon and arrive there around 11:00. The museum has some displays on Market Garden and Hell's highway but also tells the story of the battle for Overloon which was fought after Market Garden came to a conclusion. Little is written about this vicious battle. Teurlinx, I suppose you'll join us here as you live close to the museum, we could perhaps pick you up as well.

- After lunch and in the early afternoon we move north to Groesbeek and the Mookerheide where the American airborne troops landed, maybe paying a short visit to the bridge at Malden (not much to see there). In Groesbeek is a museum as well.

- Next we make a short stop on our route into Nijmegen at Berg en Dal. Here's a place with a nice view of the Rhine valley and the Reichswald (and it is on the route)

- Crossing the bridge over the Waal we'll visit the place at which the Americans stormed the river and set foot on "the island"

- From here it is a short drive over the road which gave the tanks so much trouble into Arnhem, crossing the 'bridge too far'

- If there's time enough we'll get to Oosterbeek, the perimeter and the Hartenstein museum by way of the low route and the church from which the surrounded para's escaped across the Rhine

- Let's wrap it up in Arnhem at a cafe with a view of the bridge


message 2: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 16961 comments Sounds like a great trip - very envious!


message 3: by George (last edited Nov 16, 2011 05:41PM) (new)

George | 116 comments haven't done this with any of the WWII battlefields, excluding a few in the Pacific, like the Arizona memorial and Corregidor, just the American Civil War sites. sounds like it should be lots of fun though. enjoy.


message 4: by Singleton (new)

Singleton Mosby | 96 comments George wrote: "haven't done this with any of the WWII battlefields, excluding a few in the Pacific, like the Arizona memorial and Corregidor, just the American Civil War sites. sounds like it should be lots of fu..."

I think it will, yes. Altough it is the first time for me as well (apart from a short visit of Waterloo). I am looking forward to it a lot, almost as much as I look forward to retracing Peiper's path in the Ardennes in a few months.

We've just added a large war cemetery and a air-defence command center to the list of possible sites to visit. If only we would have some more hours of daylight (it'll get dark around 16:45).


message 5: by Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces (new)

Geevee | 3796 comments I've been a few times to the Arnhem area - twice as part of a unit trip to study tactics and twice with my late father in law. For the latter we used this book, and it seems you have a full itinery, but if you can grab a copy you may find this helpful in picking out various places, routes, memorials and snippets of information.

MAJOR AND MRS HOLT'S BATTLEFIELD GUIDE OPERATION MARKET GARDEN Leopoldsville to Arnhem (Major and Mrs Holt's Battlefield Guide) by Major Holt by Major Holt

Have a great trip.


message 6: by Singleton (new)

Singleton Mosby | 96 comments Geevee wrote: "I've been a few times to the Arnhem area - twice as part of a unit trip to study tactics and twice with my late father in law. For the latter we used this book, and it seems you have a full itiner..."

Thanks for the tip Geevee. That's the guide which accompanies the map I already have. Didn't even know there was a guide.


message 7: by carl (new)

carl  theaker | 1452 comments Definitely sounds like a blast.

My brush with almost stardom was in that area while
they were filming 'A Bridge Too Far'. I was camping out at the time and dreaming of drop zones. I met some other Americans and they told me that in the next town the filmmakers were looking for extras to be background soldiers and such. Ahh but I didn't make it in time.

Singleton wrote: "I'll be making a visit to the Market garden battlefields and museums next week with two friends. I .."


message 8: by Allan (new)

Allan | 50 comments I recommend the volumes in the Battleground Europe series, both for history and for guidebooks to how the battlefields look today.


message 9: by Singleton (last edited Nov 21, 2011 02:11AM) (new)

Singleton Mosby | 96 comments carl wrote: My brush with almost stardom was in that area while
they were filming 'A Bridge Too Far'. I was camping out at the time and dreaming of drop zones. I met some ot..."


That must have been in Deventer. Iirc they shot the movie there; on a bridge which is a lot smaller then the one in Arnhem but looks otherwise almost similar.


message 10: by Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces (new)

Geevee | 3796 comments Some guys in my regiment (before my time) helped in the filming of A Bridge too Far and some of the Shermans are Land Rovers with plastic mock-ups (you can see the wheels if you look closely). Also watch the German tank crossing the bridge as it is a Leopard One - the lads thought it was likely a Dutch Army one but they never knew for certain as they weren't involved in that part of the film.

NB: I imply no criticism of the makers nor am I a movie detail geek - I just happen to know some of the "actors"!


message 11: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 16961 comments Hi Singleton,

Did you end up getting enough information for your trip to visit the battlefields of Market Garden & Overloon? Here is a book that you may have already read since it was first published in 1984 as; Slag in de Schaduw.


The Forgotten Battle Overloon and the Maas Salient 1944-1945 by A. Korthals Altes by A. Korthals Altes


message 12: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (last edited Dec 21, 2012 09:29PM) (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 16961 comments Just stumbled across this new release for those people looking for books on Operation Market Garden:


Air War Market Garden' So Near and Yet So Far by Martin Bowman by Martin Bowman
Description:
This is the second volume in a meticulously researched four-part series that provides a comprehensive insight into the aerial exploits at Operation 'Market Garden' in September 1944. In an interesting method of presenting the information, the authors arrangement of British, American, Dutch and German personal narrative interspersed with factual material offers a more personalized view of the war through the eyes of the hard-pressed Allied airborne troops who were actually there in the thick of the action. They take you steadily through the bitter house-to-house fighting in Eindhoven, Nijmegen and Arnhem and the fanatical attempts to keep open the narrow road to permit XXX Corps to reach and relieve Colonel John Frosts men, outnumbered and out-gunned at Arnhem Bridge. They reveal the frustration and bitter disappointment in the battles of the drop zones, the bloody fight for the bridges across the Rhine and the almost suicidal second and third lifts to re-supply the troops holding on precariously, fighting desperately, tenaciously and bravely to prevent their positions being overrun in the face of overwhelming enemy superiority. Stories of individual heroism act to humanize this period of wartime history, which is often reduced to mere facts. Timelines detail the day-to-day events happening in all areas of the battle both on the ground and in the air and also add weight to the story in hand, whilst carefully selected archive images work to supplement the text perfectly.


message 13: by Christie (new)

Christie | 336 comments Just purchased Deliver Us From Darkness The Untold Story of Third Battalion 506 Parachute Infantry Regiment During Market Garden by Ian Gardner on Kindle for only $2.79 based on the good reviews. Has anyone read this yet?


message 14: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 16961 comments I haven't but will be keen to hear what you think of it once you have finished reading it :)


message 15: by A.L. (new)

A.L. Sowards | 500 comments Christie, thank you for all your posts about on-sale Kindle books. They've been my weakness this past year--they're hard to pass up when they're only a few bucks!


message 16: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (last edited Dec 27, 2012 09:04PM) (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 16961 comments Christie & A.L.

You should check this ebook out, not sure what it costs but it covers the American efforts during Market Garden:

September Hope The American Side of a Bridge Too Far by John C McManus by John C. McManus


message 17: by A.L. (new)

A.L. Sowards | 500 comments It's not on sale, but it looks good. Has anyone read anything by McManus?


message 18: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 16961 comments I haven't yet, I am still trying to get all his previous books on D-Day and the Normandy campaign so I can read them chronologically.


message 19: by Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces (new)

Geevee | 3796 comments I have two of his books on my TBR and (non)GR friends have thought them good. The Americans at D-Day The American Experience at the Normandy Invasion by John C. McManus and The Americans at Normandy The Summer of 1944--The American War from the Normandy Beaches to Falaise by John C. McManus


message 20: by Christie (new)

Christie | 336 comments A.L. wrote: "Christie, thank you for all your posts about on-sale Kindle books. They've been my weakness this past year--they're hard to pass up when they're only a few bucks!"

My pleasure A.L. I only buy bargain books for Kindle or Nook as most times the digital version is the same price as the hard copy which I really prefer. I will keep the group updated on any good WWII books I run across.


message 21: by Christie (new)

Christie | 336 comments 'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Christie & A.L.

You should check this ebook out, not sure what it costs but it covers the American efforts during Market Garden:

[bookcover:September Hope: The American Side of a Bridge Too Far|1..."


It looks really good. Amazon has a secondhand copy for $9.26 but I think I'll check my local bookshops and see if I can find a copy. Operation Market Garden is of great interest to me and I have hardly anything on the campaign. Thanks for the recommendation AR. Added to the wishlist.


message 22: by Christie (new)

Christie | 336 comments A.L. wrote: "It's not on sale, but it looks good. Has anyone read anything by McManus?"

A.L. I read Alamo in the Ardennes The Untold Story of the American Soldiers Who Made the Defense of Bastogne Possible by John C. McManus this year and it was absolutely outstanding. I love his writing style.


message 23: by A.L. (new)

A.L. Sowards | 500 comments I guess my to-read list just got a bit longer!


message 24: by Christie (new)

Christie | 336 comments :) I don't think you will be disappointed in the book.


message 25: by Singleton (last edited Feb 19, 2013 02:34AM) (new)

Singleton Mosby | 96 comments 'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Hi Singleton,

Did you end up getting enough information for your trip to visit the battlefields of Market Garden & Overloon? Here is a book that you may have already read since it was first publis..."


Hi Rick, first of all, that book was hardly readable and not very much of a help. I guess I gave it 2 stars. Found another good book since and will share it here when I've the time to look it up.

The trip was very nice and I worth repeating. Altough we saw quite a lot of sites we had to leave out most of Hell's Highway because of a lack of time.
The museum at Overloon is good and has some fantastic 'hardware'. Next we visit the Grave bridge, landing sites at Groesbeek, Nijmegen bridge and crossing sites and then went on to the bridge at Arnhem and (one of) the museum Oosterbeek which was small but very good. By then it was getting dark and late so we had to call it a day.

We didn't visit the landing sites at Oosterbeek but I made a short visit to the Ginkel Heath when I drove past another time. It was bigger then I thought when I wrote an article about it and certainly worth another visit as well.

There were a lot of sites we didn't tackle so they will be on the menu next time. If anybody here is passing through the area and wants to hop along, having a little 'tour', be sure to mention it ;).


message 26: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 16961 comments Hi Singleton, Sorry that the book didn't pan out as expected but it sounds like you had a decent trip with more to go back and visit.

I am going to be visiting Europe in August and hiring a car to drive down the coast from Bruges to the Normandy region so I am checking out what sites I should visit.


message 27: by Singleton (new)

Singleton Mosby | 96 comments That sounds most interesting Rick. Which WWII sites do you plan to visit?


message 28: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 16961 comments Not sure yet, Dieppe, Caen, the Normandy beaches, maybe Cherbourg but also places like Honfleur, Rouen, Bayeux and whatever I can talk my wife into that's close by :)


message 29: by Singleton (new)

Singleton Mosby | 96 comments Sounds like a really nice trip Rick. Honfleur is really nice and I can point you at some nice little places in that region (stops your wife will like as well ;) )

Be sure to come north from Brugge next time and we will meet up on the Arnhem battlefield ;)


message 30: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 16961 comments That sounds like a great idea!


message 31: by happy (new)

happy (happyone) | 2202 comments 'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Not sure yet, Dieppe, Caen, the Normandy beaches, maybe Cherbourg but also places like Honfleur, Rouen, Bayeux and whatever I can talk my wife into that's close by :)"

Definately do Bayeux. The Tapestry is amazing and relatively inexpensive to see.


message 32: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 16961 comments Singleton wrote: "Sounds like a really nice trip Rick. Honfleur is really nice and I can point you at some nice little places in that region (stops your wife will like as well ;) )

Be sure to come north from Brugge..."


Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated :)


message 33: by happy (new)

happy (happyone) | 2202 comments St. Mer Eglise has a nice little museum. We stayed in a little inn about 2 blocks from the Church/musuem


message 34: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 16961 comments Will check that out as well if possible, thanks Happy.


message 35: by Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces (new)

Geevee | 3796 comments Always like Merville and Ranville (and CWGC), The Bayeux CWGC cemetery, Omaha Beach and nearby US cemetery, a visit to Hill 112 to see the battlefield area and for a fine view north towards Caen; Cherbourg's old fortress Fort du Roul including the liberation museum, and the museum Citie de la Mer, at the ship/rail head is a good visit; Pointe-du-Hoc and Longues-sur-mer; peace museum in Caen and dinner in the Lion D'Or Hotel, which although not the finest eatery in the area is worth the journey as it was a favourite of Eisenhower's and many British & US war correspondents; museums of liberation & occupation at Saine Marie Du Monte;


message 36: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 16961 comments Thanks for all those suggestions Geevee, I am putting a plan together this weekend so will add some of them to the itinerary.


message 37: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 16961 comments Here is third volume of a four-part series on Operation Market-Garden:


Air War Market Garden Shrinking Perimeter by Martin W. Bowman by Martin W. Bowman
Description:
The third volume of this four-part series on Operation 'Market-Garden' in September 1944 draws on many individual soldiers and airmen's narratives to tell the story of the ongoing fight to keep the Hell's Highway' open to relieve 1st Airborne at Arnhem, and the brave attempts to re-supply them from the air. As in previous volumes, this account offers a unique perspective on all aspects of aerial activity during this pivotal operation. This volume tells of the Allied effort to retain supremacy in the skies. Individual tales of gallantry work to humanize the account, rooting the action very much in the human experience of conflict. Such tales include the never to be forgotten story of the 'Angel of Arnhem' and the acts of chivalry that existed on both sides - even among battle hardened units such as the SS Panzer Grenadiers. All are unique in the annals of war. These and the other personal recollections of Allied soldiers and airmen and their German adversaries tell of extreme courage, camaraderie and shared terror under fire. And they are complemented by the author's background information that puts each narrative into wartime perspective.

Volume I:

Air War Market Garden The Build Up to the Beginning by Martin W. Bowman by Martin W. Bowman

Volume II:

Air War Market Garden So Near and Yet So Far by Martin Bowman by Martin W. Bowman


message 38: by Colin (new)

Colin Heaton (colin1962) | 1907 comments I corresponded with Wilhelm Bittrich a few times in the 1970s, and his insights were interesting regarding this operation. He did after all win the battle.


message 39: by Jim (new)

Jim Dingeman (jimkelly) | 86 comments Good book to use for visiting


message 40: by Jim (new)

Jim Dingeman (jimkelly) | 86 comments these look great..will get them


message 41: by Jim (new)

Jim Dingeman (jimkelly) | 86 comments He is a good writer and well worth looking at.


message 42: by Jim (new)

Jim Dingeman (jimkelly) | 86 comments This is a USAF study on Airborne operations in the ETO very detailed and good to check out

http://www.afhra.af.mil/shared/media/...


message 43: by Jim (new)

Jim Dingeman (jimkelly) | 86 comments This is a USAF book on airborne operations in the Med also detailed and fascinating

http://www.afhra.af.mil/shared/media/...


message 44: by Jim (new)

Jim Dingeman (jimkelly) | 86 comments absolutely...a fantastic series


message 45: by Jim (new)

Jim Dingeman (jimkelly) | 86 comments For Market GARDEN...this is a necessary book

http://www.amazon.com/It-Never-Snows-...


message 46: by Dj (new)

Dj | 2035 comments It Never Snows in September: The German View of Market-Garden and the Battle of Arnhem, September 1944

This is a good book from the other side on Market-Garden.
I wouldn't consider it a stand alone book, but more of a companion. Something to go along with a book like A Bridge Too Far.
Well worth the read though.


message 47: by Robert (new)

Robert Hays (goodreadscomroberthays) | 275 comments In my opinion, equally important to the results of Market-Garden itself was the effect it had on Patton's operations. Eisenhower's decision to virtually shut off supplies to Patton's U.S. Third Army in favor of Hodges' First Army in support of Market-Garden proved a devastating blow to the Allied advance.

Third Army was poised for a final dash into the German heartland, and no lesser authority than Field Marshal von Rundstedt said later that the Allies could have broken through the Siegfried Line whenever they wished. With Patton's forces halted, though, the Germans had ample time to regroup. Patton's G-2, Col. Oscar Koch, reported that the Germans had some forty thousand slave laborers reinforcing the Siegfried Line.

Before his drive was halted, Patton already had a small force in Metz, which it entered with little resistance. It had to withdraw because it couldn't be supported once his armor was shut down for lack of gasoline. When Ike finally lifted the restraining order in November, it took ten days of vicious fighting to take Metz.

One also has to wonder what might have become of Hitler's planned Ardennes offensive if Patton's rapid advance hadn't been stopped in its tracks in September.

Patton's Oracle Gen. Oscar Koch, as I Knew Him by Robert Hays Robert Hays


message 48: by Dj (new)

Dj | 2035 comments Robert wrote: "In my opinion, equally important to the results of Market-Garden itself was the effect it had on Patton's operations. Eisenhower's decision to virtually shut off supplies to Patton's U.S. Third Arm..."


While they quite possibly, for myself though there was only one absolute primary target of any worth. That was the Sheldt Estuary. Without the opening of the Port of Antwerp Patton breaking through the Seigrfried Line was only stretching an already taut supply situation. Also the area that Patton was breaking out into would have been less favorable for tanks than crossing the Rhine into the Plains of Northern Germany.
One of the things that always surprised me was that they didn't switch places of 3rd Army HQ and 9th Army HQ. Thus putting their best open field runner in a position to cross the Rhine and run wild.


message 49: by Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces (last edited Jul 28, 2013 01:30AM) (new)

Geevee | 3796 comments Dj I agree wholeheartedly on the Scheldt Estuary and Antwerp aspect. To my mind the campaign there in terms of operations, its terrain and logistical difficulties and casualties have tended to be overlooked; if only for the major part played by the under-appreciated Canadian army (with of course a number of supporting units from other allies).


message 50: by Lilo (new)

Lilo (lilo-hp) | 586 comments What on earth is Market Garden?


« previous 1 3
back to top