Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows
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Lily Evans - goes from one bully to another.
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I don't know, Snape chose to do the things he did. He chose to be a bully just as much as James chose to be. At least James outgrew it. He became less arrogant and less of a butt hurt as he matured, Snape didn't. Snape stayed a bully. It's not even just Harry he bullies either, he has poor Neville living in constant fear every time he's in the Potions classroom. Neville's worse fear is Snape. Snape abuses his position as an authority figure to pick on children. Children that he, as a teacher, should be looking out for.
Chelseabelle wrote: "Apologies, The actual reference to the "b" word was to Katherine. I should have made that reference more clear. Totally my mistake. I should have left my reference to you at "hahahaha." I found y..."
Well you just didn't seem so big on kindness now did you. I really only meant to ask everyone to be nice, and I was suddenly under attack. Only trying to please you ;)
Oh, and I'm tired of this. So now, I promise I'm done here...and I'm sorry, by the way.
i agree james wasnt the nicest kid in school but she liked him =p lol . cant blame her for that =p =D and if it wasnt for him there wouldnt be a harry potter =p harry potter would be harry snape and lets be honest that just doesnt go does it =p like it just doesnt match =p do u know what im trying to say ? =p iv sort of confused myself now =s
They may have both been bullies at one time or another in their lives. However, I think if we were all summed up by our character in junior high and high school. We would all be found a little wanting.
Laurie wrote: "I wouldn't call James and Severus "exactly alike." James was a bully because he thought he was better than everyone else. Severus became a bully because he was bullied when he was younger. If Ja..."I agree with the calculation that Snape became a bully in part due to being bullied. But to say that one person James, was responsible for turning Snape into a bully is way to simplistic. Many, many youth are bullied and never become bullies themselves. Snape also felt he was better than everyone else and probably had more people bullying him then just James. That is why he identified with Lilly in the first place he witnessed her being bullied by her sister and felt a connection to her.
lol james might have been a bully towards snape but with lilly maybe he wasnt that bad.. i mean yea he was a jerk at first , but who isnt =p they liked eachother =D
Gretchen wrote: "Laurie wrote: "I wouldn't call James and Severus "exactly alike." James was a bully because he thought he was better than everyone else. Severus became a bully because he was bullied when he was ..."I don't think Snape became a bully because he was being bullied. He was a bully when he was at school too. He hexed, insulted people from the beginning.
Hina that's what I was saying........i.e "I agree with the calculation that Snape became a bully in part due to being bullied."......
No, I'm saying that I don't agree that Snape became a bully because he was being bullied, since he was a bully himself. I don't think it was James's fault that he was a bully.
Tenae wrote: "I find Lily Evans extremely stupid. She calls James Potter and arrogant toerag to Severus Snape - who is also an arrogant toerag - and then fucking marries the bloke. I recently posted in a dis..."
Im sorry to all of you who disagree with this post...but I kind of agree with what this person is saying. I was exttremly put off by this scene in the book and almost hated James Potter when I found out what a bully he was to Snape. I dont care how young/old you are...bulling is not and will never be acceptable. True Snape was not a knight in shinning armor, but when it comes to James ppl seem to have their Rose colored glasses on just bc it Harry Potters father.
@Hina I really think we are saying the same thing. What I am trying to say is that being bullied was only part of the reason that Snape ever behaved the way he did and that one person i.e James can not shape a person's behavior.
Oh right. Okay. That's cool. xD
![[Coco]](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1446446786p1/1089930.jpg)
Severus wasn't a bully, or at least not at first. James taunted, hurt, and made fun of Snape, and Snape already had enough trouble growing up, that poor guy. Severus was mean to Harry and everyone else except Slytherins, Dumbledore, and Voldy's side. But then again, he was sort of a spy for Dumbledore, and by the end Snape made up for everything he did, don't you think? He was a good guy, but I think Lily should have married him instead :)
Snape was a Death Eater. Death Eaters are bullies by definition. They tortured and killed people for fun.Therefore, Snape was a bully. Just maybe not before that.
Throughout the series, he not only picks on Harry, but he also picks on Neville and other kids and favors the Slytherin's.
I definitely think he qualifies.
Michelle wrote: "By the end of the series, I saw Snape's bullying as part of a persona, rather than who he really was; it might have looked a bit odd to Voldemort if he coddled people, like Harry, when Voldemort th..."
The other teachers had no say in Snape's remaining at Hogwarts or not. That was all Dumbledore's doing. And then later Voldemort's.
And I don't see anywhere where he actually got along with them, he perhaps shared mutual respect for their positions, but I don't think he suddenly fit in when he became a teacher. Throughout the series, he's just not a very nice person.
Im still sticking to what I said earlier...ppl have rose colored glasses on when it comes to James just because it was Harrys father....if it wasn't his dad...I bet you would be saying something different
Jessica wrote: "Im still sticking to what I said earlier...ppl have rose colored glasses on when it comes to James just because it was Harrys father....if it wasn't his dad...I bet you would be saying something di..."No. That is totally not true. You have no right to assume things like that. Harry and James are totally different people and I for one prefer James to Harry even though Harry is the protagonist.
Hina(moony,wormtail,padfoot and prongs) wrote: "Jessica wrote: "Im still sticking to what I said earlier...ppl have rose colored glasses on when it comes to James just because it was Harrys father....if it wasn't his dad...I bet you would be say..."I have the right to assume anything I want
Jessica wrote: "Hina(moony,wormtail,padfoot and prongs) wrote: "Jessica wrote: "Im still sticking to what I said earlier...ppl have rose colored glasses on when it comes to James just because it was Harrys father...."You don't have the right to assume things about other people, you don't know these other people.
Jessica wrote: "Hina(moony,wormtail,padfoot and prongs) wrote: "Jessica wrote: "Im still sticking to what I said earlier...ppl have rose colored glasses on when it comes to James just because it was Harrys father...."Not here to agrue...just here to state what I feel
Hina(moony,wormtail,padfoot and prongs) wrote: "Jessica wrote: "Hina(moony,wormtail,padfoot and prongs) wrote: "Jessica wrote: "Im still sticking to what I said earlier...ppl have rose colored glasses on when it comes to James just because it wa..."and if assuming is what Im going to do..then what are you going to do about it. Nothing...it was not directed towards you and if your going to take it personally then thats your own problem....I was just making a statment.
Holly wrote: "Katherine wrote: "James was never like Draco, Draco had cruelty in him. James was just messing around and being a show off, trying to get attention."I think a couple of you are downplaying bullyi..."
James wasn't the one who tricked Snape to go down to the Whomping Willow, it was Sirius who tricked him. James found out what Sirius was up to and went to save Snape.
***
James was a bully in school yes, we saw how both he and Sirius treated Snape at 15 and that act shouldn't be toned down to "well he and Snape were enemies" it was an unprovoked attack and James probably continued with his bullying and pranking until he graduated but we don't know if the bullying was always if ever one sided we also don't know if the severity of his bullying lessened as he got older. Sure in the memory Snape was approached unprovoked but who says it was like that all the time? Sometimes Snape may have approached James without cause, who knows? It was also stated that James got better in 7th year, he became Head Boy so I think that shows that he matured a bit even if him and Snape still fought.
Bullying is wrong. James who was an only child and most likely spoiled by his parents wasn't an entirely good kid, he wasn't mature when dealing with those he didn't like but when it came to his friends he was unbelievably loyal. And no one can say he didn't change or get better after school because you don't know that.
Snape came from an abusive home and poor circumstances he was case where he started off decent and as the years went by went down the wrong path. I think Lily was the only reason he stayed decent for so long but then she ended their friendship and that was it but he made a mistake that caused her her life and out of guilt he decides to do the right thing even if he's not doing it because its the right thing to do but out of love and guilt.
I don't think Lily was stupid, Lily was just capable in seeing the good and potential within these guys that not everyone would be able to see at a glance.
Jessica wrote: "Hina(moony,wormtail,padfoot and prongs) wrote: "Jessica wrote: "Hina(moony,wormtail,padfoot and prongs) wrote: "Jessica wrote: "Im still sticking to what I said earlier...ppl have rose colored glas..."I actually did do something about it, I told you. I'm not taking it personally, but am telling you to keep your assumptions to yourself.
well sure seems like your taking it personally to be picking a fight on a forum that is based on opinions and assumptions. Whatever personal battle your having right now with someone stating or "assuming" their own opinion thats your deal. Maybe this is not the site for you....just something to think about
Jessica wrote: "well sure seems like your taking it personally to be picking a fight on a forum that is based on opinions and assumptions. Whatever personal battle your having right now with someone stating or "as..."Okay, you know what let's just drop this. Agree to disagree or whatever. You keep making all these stupid assumptions on this thread and I'll carry on doing whatever the hell I want. Capiche?
Well my "stupid" assumption is still stands from what I said before......ppl have rose colored glasses on when it comes to James just because it was Harrys father....if it wasn't his dad...I bet you would be saying something different
So agreeing to Disagree :)
Jessica wrote: "Well my "stupid" assumption is still stands from what I said before......ppl have rose colored glasses on when it comes to James just because it was Harrys father....if it wasn't his dad...I be..."
Mhm, glad to know.
Yes.
I really think that all of the people who insult James and Lily are being RIDICULOUS! How many of you cried when Sirius died? And wasn't Sirius one of James' closest friends? Do you really think that Sirius would have such terrible judgment as to befriend an "arrogant toerag?" What exactly does the house of Gryffindor represent? LOYALTY AND BRAVERY! Also, Sirius LAUGHED when James hung Snape by his toes! AGAIN, HOW MANY CRIED WHEN SIRIUS DIED? HMMMMMMMM. Does anyone remember book 4, in the graveyard? Did Lily seem like an imbecile then, or in the woods in book 7? Was James an insufferable 'toerag?' NO! I would also like evryone to remember that Snape WORKED FOR VOLDEMORT!! HE IS THE REASON THAT JAMES AND LILY DIED! James was only really 'cruel' to him. When he was 15! While Snape was off betraying the woman he 'loved', James and Lily were working for the Order. James may have been arrogant, but Snape was just as cruel. We simply didn't read about it. WHO exactly dropped a TREE BRANCH on a little girl's head? And WHO called Lily MUDBLOOD? I seem to remember a certain SEVERUS SNAPE doing those things. James grew up to be a good person. He outgrew his arrogance. Snape, on the other hand, joined an evil wizard's following called THE DEATH EATERS! Snape may been a good person in the end, but he wasn't better than James. Do I have to remind anyone that he would have gladly MURDERED a todler- Harry- and an innocent man to have Lily? When he told Voldemort about the prophecy, he specifically intended to kill Harry and James so that he could have Lily to himself.
Harry did some bad things too; he used the Sectumsempera spell on Malfoy. Incidentally, Sectumsempera was CREATED BY SNAPE. It was labled 'For enemies'. James played pranks, but he NEVER created spells to specifically slice people open. If we had had read the Sectumsempera scene from Malfoy's view, and nothing else, what would we have thought?
Harry did some bad things too; he used the Sectumsempera spell on Malfoy. Incidentally, Sectumsempera was CREATED BY SNAPE. It was labled 'For enemies'. James played pranks, but he NEVER created spells to specifically slice people open. If we had had read the Sectumsempera scene from Malfoy's view, and nothing else, what would we have thought?
Jessica wrote: "Im still sticking to what I said earlier...ppl have rose colored glasses on when it comes to James just because it was Harrys father....if it wasn't his dad...I bet you would be saying something di..."I'm not going to start an argument here, you're entitled to think whatever you want. But I think you have a very narrow minded opinion of James.
Perhaps the fact that he's Harry's father makes people want to like him, but that's not really enough reason in and of itself. If that were the case, we'd love the Dursleys as well since they're his family too. But we don't. Because we know them.
I really don't think there's enough information given about James to paint a super clear picture of him one way or another. All we really have to go off of is one memory - seen through the eyes of someone that hated him and was definitely not in a charitable mood at the time(understandably); one name that Lily called him ('arrogant toerag') - which is definitely understandable considering the circumstance. But that doesn't mean that's all of who he was or that he was always that way or even truly that way very much.
More importantly we have the facts that he was a key figure in the original Order and that his best friend was Sirius - which was already pointed out that they were probably pretty similar in their actions and thoughts - and from the little bit that we actually see of Sirius, we love him.
You have to look at the entire picture of someone to determine if they're 'good' or 'bad'. And given the side he was on and how he died, it's pretty obvious that he was one of the good ones, despite maybe a few stupid, callous moments in his past.
I agree with Ana. The whole argument that James is a 'bully' because of one memory through Snape's perspective, is ridiculous.
They were enemies. People have flaws and downfalls, it's doesn't make them bad people. Just human.
Why do people think Sirius was such a great guy? Rowling always used the term arrogant to describe him and I think the time in Azkaban really stunted the maturation process for him. (Not his fault at all, but it affected the person he became.) Because he had spent most of his adult life isolated, he really ended up idealizing his relationship with James and the times they had together as children. As an adult, he was very rude to Snape, even to the point of calling him 'Snivelus', their old nickname for him. Although he sometimes says the right things (like how he was sorry about the bullying and how you should treat those under you well), he often doesn't live up to his own words or follow his own advice.Do I think we should take Sirius's approval of James as proof that James was a 'good guy'? No. I think Lupin would be a better candidate for that, personally. However, Rowling described a picture of the four friends together and talked of Lupin looking that he was surprised and delighted to find himself liked, so he was a bit in awe of James and Sirius, I think.
Someone mentioned something in one of these posts before that I had never thought about. How could you expect Snape to feel about Griffyndors after receiving such terrible treatment from them? I bet the Slytherins treated him well, while the Griffyndors bullied him. We see things from a very pro-Griffyndor stance, because that's Harry's house, but, if you had had Snape's experiences with both houses, you might have seen how he would view the Slytherins as more moral than Griffyndors, or as the people he belonged with.
Mickey wrote: "Why do people think Sirius was such a great guy? Rowling always used the term arrogant to describe him and I think the time in Azkaban really stunted the maturation process for him. (Not his fault ..."I agree, we do tend to favor Griffyndor more because it's through Harry's POV and that's the way Rowling meant us to see it. But you also have to look at the facts. Griffyndors as a whole were much better people than Slytherins. It's not just a stereotype, it's almost always the case.
I don't see anywhere where Snape was treated any better by anyone else. We only see his interactions with James and Sirius. He has no other friends aside from Lily. At least none worth mentioning. Which I think says alot about the kind of person he was - not a very pleasant one if he never had even one real friend.
I don't think Slytherins were 'nice' to him. They maybe tolerated him. But overall the relationship between Slytherins was mutual quests for power and fear. They got along as long as it would do something for them. They bullied within their own groups.
I mean, not to say they weren't capable of real feelings of love and friendship, but it's not really shown for any of them. Mostly you just see their desire to align with Voldemort and be the 'super race'.
I love Sirius. I know he was arrogant at times and hated Snape - I really don't blame him for Snape. I think it was more of the same as with James, mutual hate that came from mutual instances of hexing or insults or whatever.
Overall Sirius was a decent guy. He had enough backbone to do the right thing despite being an outcast in his own family - he distanced himself from Voldemort and fought for the right side. He renounced the idea that he was better because he was a 'pureblood' and he was an extremely loyal friend.
So, he was arrogant. That's not generally something I appreciate, but I think most people tend to be that way at times at least a little. We all think we're a little better than someone else if we're being honest. It's human nature.
I definitely think opinions are influenced by how Harry sees things, but Sirius and James were still really good people, even though they were flawed.
I agree with you Kristen, nobody is perfect, and that doesn't mean that you don't have to stop to admire and like the ones whose qualities can call our attention (just being down-earthed and admit that everyone has flaws because everybody is human).I remember that in the 5th book, when Harry finished his conversation with Sirius and Lupin about Snape's memory, Fred and George finished their final prank and they expelled themselves. It was funny and then I had in mind that James and Sirius were also like them.
And about how did James and Lily tied the knot in the end is one of those misteries of life that no one can understand. If you also remember, Ron and Hermione weren't from the moment they had met a lovely dovey couple.
I suppose that James also had to mature so he could settle in and be a good husband and father.
No, no, no, no, no. James was an arogant bully, and he was mean, yeah, but no-one is perfect. He was brave and cared about his family and friends, especially Lily, Harry, Sirius, Lupin, and perhaps even Pettigrew when he tagged along with him in his childhood.Snape was EVIL. There is a difference. Not saying I hate either, because they both excelled to be more than they used to be.
They are not the same, and Lily Evans is not stupid. She loved James Potter, it's really that simple. She befriended Severus Snape mainly because she met him first, and she didn't know he would soon be a Death Eater.
People make mistakes, including James Potter and Severus Snape. It doesn't mean they didn't love Lily, and it doesn't make Lily stupid for falling for James.
I am not a big fan of James as a whole but it is obvious he changed and matured. But Snape did as well, neither continued to be the same 15 years old they were in school. Looking at either of them as flat and one dimensional is a disservice to them as characters as well as to yourself as a reader. One of the points J.K makes in the series is that there isn't absolute good and bad, there is a grey area and both of them fall somewhere in between.
Britnie wrote: "I am not a big fan of James as a whole but it is obvious he changed and matured. But Snape did as well, neither continued to be the same 15 years old they were in school. Looking at either of them ..."Snape didn't mature. As a grown adult he picked on Harry just because he looked like James. He was also horrible to Hermione and Neville, just because if Voldemort picked Neville's family instead of Harry's Lily would have still been alive. Snape was not a nice person, despite his amazing character.
At one point in their lives James Potter and Severus Snape (and Draco Malfoy and Dudley Dursley) were almost alike. They bullied others. But on the other hand we have half a dozen comments from people who knew them that James DID change and stopped being a bully, while we have several hundred PROOFS that Snape died being a bully and so on.More so... James was the one who seemingly always WON when he and Snape collided so Snape was not only a bully he was a weak and unsuccessful bully. Which translates directly into his vindictive and hateful persona of twenty years later. He could never stand not to win so he takes it out on those who cannot defend themselves because he has the ultimate say in his dungeon and no student can hope to outwit or outpower him there. It will always provoke just another cruel comment or a pointless detention or deduction of points.
As we have been assured that they were a happy couple Lily chose the right man, the one who did NOT harm her who did not hate her for being a "mudblood".
And of COURSE Snape would always pretend James was in the wrong and James was the reason for all the fights and that Snape always ended up the loser, cause he not even managed to confess his own faults in losing Lilys friendship (i don't think romantic love would have been even remotely been possible at that point as he already was a rather Gargamel persona) in causing her death and in surviving his guilt so he could be remembered of it by every look into Harry's eyes.
To judge James SOLELY on this one scene out of seven books and some backup stuff we've seen is a bad idea. It's like you'd only judge Sirius for the pain he caused Ron by biting his leg when he dragged him towards the Whomping Willow or like saying Hagrid is an aggressive guy just by watching Vernons memory of Hagrid entering the small shack on the island in the stormy sea from book one... it's a snapshot. And in regards of Harry's image of his father a very important snapshot that took him back down to earth, but it's not the whole characterization of James Potter and it is not the part of him Lily was able to love.
Where did I say he was a "nice person"? I said he had matured past the 15 year old he once was. Immature people don't selflessly lay down their lives for others.Even J.K Rowling said anout Snape "He is not a particularly likeable man in many ways. He remains rather cruel, a bully, riddled with bitterness and insecurity—and yet he loved, and showed loyalty to that love and, ultimately, laid down his life because of it. That's pretty heroic!"
So he picked on Harry, he also saved his life. Harry named one of his son's after Snape so obviously he recovered for the horrible trauma *eye roll*
"Neville, just because if Voldemort picked Neville's family instead of Harry's Lily would have still been alive." Where do you get some of this? Interpretation is one thing but distortion to fit your obviously biased view is quite another.
Britnie wrote: "Where did I say he was a "nice person"? I said he had matured past the 15 year old he once was. Immature people don't selflessly lay down their lives for others.Even J.K Rowling said anout Snap..."
Being a mature person also means to treat others at a respectable level.
I am not saying that Snape didn't do something extraordinary, but it came at a price. He started something that didn't have to begin in the first place.
I can't really say anything about that since my opinion is entirely different to Harry's even towards the end.
Distortion? I am not distorting anything. Why do you think Snape picked on Neville then and constantly traumatised him so Neville developed a FEAR of him? Do you think that Snape just ended up choosing students at random to pick on or something? Snape was known for his grudges, there was a reason why he hated Harry, Remus, Sirius so why can't there be one for Neville?
There are multiple definitions and opinions on what makes someone mature. I think the good he did out weighs the fact that he "picked on" people. Of course it came at a price, but that shouldn't disqualify it. If anything it is more evidence of his growth as a character,Anyway, refer to my other post. I feel a bit silly having the same argument twice. In fact I feel a bit silly having this argument at all. We obviously see it differently and are not going to change our views on it. Like I said, I respect your own opinion even if I disagree.
Yes, I agree with that. Yes same.
No one is the same as before, specially after a war. Since you born, you start with some characteristics. However, there has to be something in your life that makes you change either for better or worse.
James had charisme and support from his family while Snape lacked both of them. Lily also had family support as well, something her sister resented at some point, even so, Lily didn't become a spoiled girl.
James and Lily entered to Griffindor, Snape to Slytherin.
If James was a bully, it was because of his own inmaturity. Snape was picked on by him but in part because he was nosy and spying on the Marauders.
I suppose that if James and Sirius were bullies, they should have picked on others besides Snape.
Lily wasn't supporting neither of them, she was only doing the right. As Ciara commented, she was not stupid, if she had been, she would have put up with Snape after he called her mudblood or she wouldn't have warned him about the group he wanted to be part of.
As Sirius and Lupin said, Lily didn't date James until he stopped being a total idiot.
James supported Dumbledore while Snape supported Voldemort because both of them though they were in the right group.
Snape knew he made a mistake when Lily's life was targeted.
Harry had more of Lily's character, but I am sure that Snape picked on Harry because of his almost physical resemblance to James (as well as because Harry was a boy). But because he wanted to make up for Lily, he had to overcome his grudge.
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I should have left my reference to you at "hahahaha." I found your comment about the person who started the forum funny.
And I didn't lecture the person who started the topic because they didn't lecture anyone about being nice. It was the whole, "be kind," then using the B word that ticked me off.
I will stop trolling now.