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A Dance with Dragons (A Song of Ice and Fire, #5)
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2011 Reads > ADWD: Tyrion, Jaime & Cersei - Spoilers

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FittenTrim | 18 comments Before I comment, lets recap in backwards order:

"Prince Aerys (the Mad King)... as a youth, he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock, a cousin of Tywin Lannister. When she and Tywin wed, (Aerys/Mad King) drank too much win at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity that the lord's right to the first night had been abolished... the liberties (that Aerys/Mad King) took during the bedding." Ser Barristan to Dany

Page 533
"The Imp is no longer my brother, if he ever was." Cersei Lannister
Page 503
"... but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year." Aunt Genna to Jaime

Page 880
"You... you are no... no son of mine." Tywin's last words, spoken to his killer Tyrion.
Page 502
"Aerys had chosen [Jaime] to spite his father, to rob Lord Tywin of his heir."

If this isn't a red herring (and I hope it is) There are a couple of choices:
1.King Aerys was Tyrion's father.
2.King Aerys was Cersei and Jaime's father.

In favor of Tyrion, he's been interested in dragons since he was a child (GoT). Tywin said that he wasn't his son. Tywin was always cruel to Tyrion. Tyrion's hair is closer to Targaryen bleach blond, than Lannister blond. Tyrion doesn't get the greyscale because (just like Dany) he doesn't get sick.

In favor of Cersei/Jaime, Barristan said that the Aeyrs took "liberties" on Tywin's wedding night... so the older children would be the offspring. Jaime & Cersei seem to have been born to love each other (just as the Targaryen's do) and Cersei's only other attraction was to Rhaeger who would be her half-brother. Cersei gets fascinated with fire.

message 2: by Colin (new)

Colin | 278 comments Thin. But with GRRM, who knows.

As for Tywin 'disowning' Tyrion, that seems like one of a few things that could be said when the son, who you have hated and blamed for the death of your wife his entire life, shoots you in the guts with a crossbow while you sit on the shitter.

message 3: by Aeryn98 (new)

Aeryn98 | 167 comments I never thought Tyrion was a dragon, but ever since the point that Jaime started to have his own chapters I thought the twins were. I can't remember exactly the part that made me feel this way, but it was Jaime reminiscing about his childhood. The Barristan part in DWD just made that belief stronger. If you also think about Maggie the Frog's predictions for Cersei, she said Cersei will be killed by the valonqar. That means little brother in Valyrian. Her use of only this one Valyrian word leads me to believe that little brother is a Targaryen (from Valyria). Unless Tyrion is a Targaryen too, then this means Jaime.

Of course, the inclusion of Aegon into that equation can throw it off. "The" valonqar can be the little brother who was supposedly killed on Tywin's orders.

FittenTrim | 18 comments If you believe Maggie the Frog (aka Jeyne Westerling's grandmom)'s prediction about "the younger brother" choking Cersei to death... and you believe that either Cersei/Jamie or Tyrion is a secret Targaryen:

Then the person who will strangle Cersei to death will be Jaime.

And if I had to guess, while I don't want any Lannisters to be children of the Mad King: I'd suspect that Cersei & Jaime are the Mad King's kids and that Jaime will kill Cersei.

Skip | 516 comments Cersei certainly seems mad enough to qualify, and that isn't a Lanister quality. If I get a vote, I want her eaten by one of the dragons.

Mike (michaelbetts) | 256 comments Seems like you can make a pretty good case. Maybe none of them are Tywin's.

message 7: by Nonentity (last edited Aug 16, 2011 02:38PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Nonentity | 8 comments I'm somewhat surprised at how mis-interpreted some basic human behavior here is.

The whole "you're no son of mine" is not a hint or whatever, it's just Tywin throwing one last insult at Tyrion, expressing his hate and disgust and dislike of him.

Same with Cersei's comment, she hates Tyrion and she'd love it if he wasn't actually her brother and she'd probably love to believe it but I'm pretty sure deep down she knows he is her brother and she's really pissed off because of that, to be linked in any way whatsoever to this person she hates so much.
Same goes for Tywin. I think both actually "know" that Tyrion is really their son/brother, they just despise him so much they actually try to convince themselves that he's not. That's just human behavior, there's no secret meaning there.

When you write some test in school and you know you suck and you can only have failed it you still try to convine yourself, hold out hope, "maybe it'll still be enough, maybe I'll still make it.", just for an example many should understand.

As for Genna's comment to Jaime, she simply meant that Tyrion is the "real" son in that he has Tywin's qualities, his cunning, his intelligence, whereas Jaime does not, we see plenty of examples that he just wants to be left alone and bang his sister and fight someone.

As for the "robbing his heir" - Jaime would have been the heir, but as a Kingsguard he has to give up all such claims. Tywin couldn't really refuse his king in this matter or he'd risk a scandal etc., the Hand refusing the King, and by this point Aerys was probably not quite sane anymore, so that might have been dangerous. Thus, rubbing his heir, and that actually made Tyrion, the despised son, the heir, which should have hurt Tywin even more.

Martin throws some hints about some things here and there but you CAN over-interpret things.

I'm 100% convinced Tyrion is Tywin's son, only Tywin and Cersei hate him so much and for Tywin him being a dwarf+his wife having died in childbirth is enough to loathe Tyrion, there doesn't have to be some secret reason like him actually being Aerys son or whatever.

Tyrion being interested in dragons also is not some secret hint. Hell, dragons are cool and in that world they actually existed, which child would not be fascinated by them. Only Tyrion, being highborn, actually was able to read more about them than the peasants and watch the dragons' skulls etc.

If Aerys actually had taken Tywin's wife at all and/or before Tywin their whole relationship would have been VASTLY different, Tywin wouldn't have become Hand and he actually might have had Aerys killed some way. There was no way he could have borne such a slight.

As for Cersei being attracted to Rhaegar - by all accounts he was one magnificent man, both in qualities as in looks, probably one of the few men actually looking at least as good or better than Jaime. There doesn't need to be some secret half-brother relationship between Cersei and Rhaegar for her to be attracted to him.

Also, Rhaegar wasn't the only man she was attracted to. She also said she was attracted to Robert when they were married, him also being quite a hunk apparently. She only grew to hate him when he grunted Lyanna's name during their wedding night.

All three Lannister children feature the Lannister looks and not a bit of Targaryen. Tyrion's paler hair is just designed to even further illustrate how deformed he is compared to his oh so beautiful and perfect siblings.

Overall - I think you read too much into some things and misinterpret others.

There are many, many hints in this series and many red herrings - e.g. the new one about Jon Snow - but not absolutely every line has to hint at something secret.

message 8: by Ray (new) - rated it 5 stars

Ray | 35 comments @ Nonentity: good write up and I agree with most everything. Cersei's comment about Tyrion shouldn't even be entered as evidence. Even if there is some doubt that Tyrion and the twins share the same sire, we know they share the same mother (unless someone cares to contest that fact). It could turn out that the twins were not fathered by Tywin through some bizarre plot twist but the current reasoning seems flimsy.

Kevin Clem | 76 comments Wow this is making me wonder... I think I Agree with this theory.

message 10: by FittenTrim (last edited Aug 17, 2011 10:56PM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

FittenTrim | 18 comments Nonentity: I must say that your response was "classy"; I respect your opinion & hope it is right. I write this from a place of love.

I forgot that no one in this thread came up with the wild theory that Mad King Aeyrs was hot for Tywin Lannister's wife.


He spent a page of his latest novel giving this bit of backstory.

Maybe Martin wrote it in as a "red herring" (see original post). Maybe he wrote it as a hint for something larger (see original post). Maybe he just wanted the book to be longer :)

Now Nonentity, you wrote that I "mis-interpreted some basic human behavior" and I "read too much into some things and misinterpret others." And thank you for being able to look down your nose to write that great "failing a test" paragraph :)

I guess I don't get human behavior because I thought a discussion board was a place where people write about thoughts and ideas based on an author's text.

I thought it might be fun to open up this idea which readers have discussed on other boards.

I thought that everyone understood that a person saying "you're no son of mine" could have mulitple meanings... and a discussion board could discuss those.

Whoops. ;)

message 11: by William (new)

William | 2 comments My personal theory is that none of Tywin's kids are his biological children.

That passage that quoted from Dance with Dragons specifically states Tywin's wedding night BEFORE Jamie and Cersei were conceived.

Also the prediction that the younger brother would choke Cersei could have several meanings, not necessarily Tyrion being the culprit.

DrFlimFlam | 48 comments I think all three are Lannisters through and through.

message 13: by Paul (new) - rated it 5 stars

Paul Kelly (ptekelly) | 205 comments I agree with Nonentity on this - the books are huge and themes are often repeated or restated. I think these are just taunts jibes and not statements intended to bring legitimacy of the elder lanisters to question

It would also weaken the whole story about jof and his siblings.

Casey (umbraignis) | 1 comments Something I wanted to mention that might add a few new possibilities.
valonqar is Valyrian which has been mentioned multiple times that Valyrian is a gender-less language.

So it is possible that valonqar actually means younger sibling...

If Jaimie/Cersei are Targaryen then Danny would count as a younger sibling...

message 15: by Caleb (new)

Caleb | 1 comments I hate it how people use that Genna quote.. they conveniently forget the first part of the quote so here it is:

Jaime, sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak...but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year.

Hmmm, now how could Jaime not be Tywin's son, but have qualities of all of Tywin's brothers?
Sure, Joanna was Kevan's, Tygett's and Gerion's cousin as well, but do people actually make that observation through a blood connection that weak?

eg: "you know whose eyes you have? your mother's cousin's eyes."

Sorry fellas, Jaime is Tywin's son, he just has more in common with his uncles.

message 16: by Joshua (new)

Joshua | 1 comments Okay, since we have a "three-headed dragon," and we can assume that Daenarys is one of those heads (likely riding Drogon, and supply Jon Snow as the second head, as he looks to be the most likely candidate. But who is the third head? I would have thought Tyrion for sure, but the third head must be a Targaryen by blood. It ain't gonna be Young Griff, I feel fairly certain of that... Jaime? Maybe. But probably not.

message 17: by MER (new)

MER | 1 comments GRRM has over and over said that the kin killer is cursed and I find it hard to live with the idea that Tyrion is ultimately cursed. So, Tywin must not really be his father, that way, no curse and Tyrion has a chance at coming out victorious in the end!

Stephen Richter (StephenofLongBeach) | 1060 comments I still think the genealogy of Tyrion's mother is a mystery, so perhaps a touch of tarq blood is there.

message 19: by GandaLF (new)

GandaLF | 1 comments The twins are so obviously Targaryens.

"every time a Targ is born the gods flip a coin". Jamie and cersei are the epidomy of targaryen blood. they get their Lannister hair from their mother Just like Jon snow got his black hair from the stark side. They are incestious and beautiful. The Barriston selmy speech to Dany and Jaime's dreams (forget about this one? more than enough of a hint not to mention all the other small hints.

All of you nay-sayers who simply "refuse to believe" that they are because it will "ruin the story" probably don't understand GRRM writing very well. And besides, it has to be a point of view character. If you believe that young Griff is the 3rd azor ahai then where are the POV chapters? no, an imposter arranged by Varys. Jaime is the 3rd champion of light. without his sword hand how else can he gain his honor, atone for the sins of his family and become the savior of westeros than by riding a dragon and burning the forces of evil alongside Jon and Dany? if he ISN'T the son of aerys then the story will be ruined.

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