Axis Mundi X discussion

The hoopla around the Great Debate on Friday

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message 1: by Lori (new)

Lori McCain wants to cancel because he's putting the country first, above his political motivations.


Obama has just announced he wants to continue with the debate.

Well, my personal feeling is that McCain knows shit about economics, and is grandstanding about how he wants to postpone for the sake of the country. And that no way should Obama cancel. But I freely admit I'm utterly cynical about where McCain's heart lies.

I thought this deserved it's own discussion thread. Whaddya think?

message 2: by Not Bill (new)

Not Bill | 1062 comments So I guess Obama's going for a vote of "present" again, eh?

Decision Loop. OODA. Plans within plans.

Obama has to fund raise, he can't afford NOT to debate as opposed to doing the job he was elected to do during a possible global econ meltdown.

In chess, this is where one player calls "check".

Gee, and just yesterday Reid said McCain's presence was "vital". What's he sayin' now?

message 3: by Cyril (new)

Cyril I haven't seen any evidence that either Obama or McCain understand what is currently going on in the economy, and this should be, by far, the #1 priority for both of them. It will be interesting to hear these two debate on a topic that they know little about. As the election date gets closer, I am less and less impressed by both of them. I know its asking too much for a candidate to reach my level of intelligence, but how about at least half?

Servius  Heiner  | 1980 comments Mod
:: Hands Cyril a tray of brownies::

I think they should both be in Washington, it’s that simple. If for no other reason, just to be in the know. Either one of them can be sitting in the captains chair in a few months they should be insiders on the plan not just reading it afterward. If the bail out goes through they are going to be working with it for the next for years, they should have intimate knowledge as to the how and why.

message 5: by Not Bill (new)

Not Bill | 1062 comments SSH: Agreed, you'd really think being in DC for the Mother of All Bailouts would be something of a no-brainer. For several very important reasons though, it's the worst possible timing for Obama. He needs to stay on the campaign trail in order to continue to raise money (unlike McCain) and he's really cramming for Friday's debate. My bet is the deal gets worked through, and McCain is back in time for the debate. That's a feather in his cap when it comes time to debate economic policy.

Servius  Heiner  | 1980 comments Mod
Also, McCain is going to bring right and left together… something that Obama thinks is easy, probably because he has never tried it. Oh that’s right he has that magic wand that he waves around, and then everyone gets along.

message 7: by Jackie "the Librarian", Cool Star Trek Nerd (new)

Jackie "the Librarian" | 1818 comments Mod
Guys, Obama doesn't need to be on the campaign trail to raise money. Sarah Palin is doing that for him just fine.

Servius  Heiner  | 1980 comments Mod
I really don't care about campaign moneys. They both are working to sit in the seat they both need to be there. That’s it. But if we want to play politics, and campaign then fine. McCain has been begging Obama for months to participate in debates. Haven't seen one yet. You know, just saying just throwing it out there. Your guy is a snow job.

message 9: by Jackie "the Librarian", Cool Star Trek Nerd (new)

Jackie "the Librarian" | 1818 comments Mod
Which guy?

It looks like both McCain and Obama are going to Washington to work on the finance issue, but McCain is trying to back out of the debate, using the crisis as an excuse.

Servius  Heiner  | 1980 comments Mod
Excuse for what? All he asked for was to move the debate to the following Wednesday, and let the VP's do theirs in Mississippi. So they could be present for the working of the bail out. They both really need to be there. It would be good experience points for Obama; to see how working both sides of the party line is done... you know since he has never done it.

If something has changed in the last couple of hours and they are both going to Washington then cool. That’s all I really want. The last I saw Obama wasn't going to participate.

message 11: by Jackie "the Librarian", Cool Star Trek Nerd (new)

Jackie "the Librarian" | 1818 comments Mod
McCain's campaign has "talking points" on suspending the campaign, and the debate. That sounds like he's trying to avoid the debate to me.

Obama points out that presidents don't have the luxury of dealing with just one issue at a time, they may have several crises happening at once.

So why should the candidates postpone a debate, when they should be able to debate AND sort out the financial crisis at the same time.

Servius  Heiner  | 1980 comments Mod
Is there not a Q&A at town hall meetings? I don't think that is being fallacious. Going around in up-close and personal settings and having a conversation with the people you intend to govern, as opposed to talking at a crowd in a stadium.

The point is Obama supporters are acting like McCain is trying to dodge the debate. When he is the one that has wanted open dialog between the two at "town hall meetings", I don't see how this has turned into dodging a debate. They both should be there. It is important, and it is something that one of them will be working with for 4 years. THEY NEED TO BE THERE! Have the debate in DC I don’t care but they need to be there.

That’s it, that’s my point they need to be there. they need to be there they need to be there they need to be there they need to be there they need to be there… will it help if I stomp my feet and pull the sugary marshmallow cereal off the shelf? ;)

Servius  Heiner  | 1980 comments Mod
I have never heard of that Donna, Thanks I'll look into and see what it is.

message 14: by Jackie "the Librarian", Cool Star Trek Nerd (new)

Jackie "the Librarian" | 1818 comments Mod
Nick, I think you are great. I like your focus on the important stuff!
Yes, they should be there. And yes, I don't see why they couldn't move the debate to Washington, and have it there.

Servius  Heiner  | 1980 comments Mod
Ok, so he can do his job. Let me rephrase that… it seemed kind of harsh; those examples are not mainstream party issues. I don’t think there is much debate about the merits of non-proliferation. Is there anything about immigration, abortion, voter registration, gun laws? These are going to be the hard nuts to crack. Has he demonstrated the ability to sway the right and left close enough together to get a hot topic issue resolved? Again not trying to be short tempered. If there are I would like to know. Also if there are Obama really needs to air them out in public so people know about it.

message 16: by Dave (new)

Dave Russell And unlike McCain, he still supports the McCain-Kennedy immigration bill.

Servius  Heiner  | 1980 comments Mod
that should be something he brings to the spot light.

Servius  Heiner  | 1980 comments Mod
That reminds me of a very important issue to me, and I am sure many serving in the military. When I was in Iraq in 03’-04’ we were all issued absentee ballots. I don’t know how wide spread this was but our entire unit got our ballots back saying they were not counted because they could not be verified. Eh what?!

message 19: by Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You. (new)

Charissa (dakinigrl) | 3620 comments Mod
Nick, that's a piece of news I hadn't heard. Pretty damn lame, and extremely unfair.

Obama can raise funds without being on the campaign trail constantly. He accepts donations through his website. I'm certain the press will cover him no matter where he is. I'm sure he has plenty of aides who can continue to fund raise while he deals with important matters of state, if that is what he deems the best way to spend his time.

message 20: by Lori (new)

Lori Heeheehee. From Defamer:

Letterman on McCain's Sudden Cancellation: 'I Think Someone's Putting Something in His Metamucil'

John McCain announced today that he would suspend his presidential campaign until the current economic crisis is settled, leaving some big holes in this week's TV schedule — most especially, this Friday's suddenly in-jeopardy presidential debate, which McCain is seeking to postpone (Barack Obama and debate organizers have rejected the idea). In the short-term, however, McCain pulled out of his planned appearance tonight on Late Show with David Letterman, and the host is pissed. Seems McCain told Letterman that he was canceling so that he could rush back to Washington D.C., but then Dave caught wind that McCain hadn't gone anywhere — that, in fact, he was just down the street taping an interview with CBS anchorwoman Katie Couric. What followed was an on-screen excoriation, according to the Drudge Report:

Dave even cut over to the live video of the interview, and said, "Hey Senator, can I give you a ride home?"

Earlier in the show, Dave kept saying, "You don't suspend your campaign. This doesn't smell right. This isn't the way a tested hero behaves." And he joked: "I think someone's putting something in his metamucil."

"He can't run the campaign because the economy is cratering? Fine, put in your second string quarterback, Sarah Palin. Where is she?"

"What are you going to do if you're elected and things get tough? Suspend being president? We've got a guy like that now!"

message 21: by Rusty (new)

Rusty (rustyshackleford) So, there are human beings who believe McCain is scared to debate Obama? That just doesn’t make sense to me. Even if you are of the opinion that Obama would have an advantage in a debate – you have to see that McCain’s ego would never allow him to accept that as fact. I’m not saying that political maneuvering is not involved in McCain’s decision, but I cannot accept that fear is involved.

And honestly, from what I’ve seen, BO is not a talented EXTEMPORANEOUS speaker, so I don’t really see him having an advantage.

message 22: by Cyril (new)

Cyril I think the debate is important, but my expectations are low.

I was in the military in Okinawa during the last presidential election. The military has a voter registration drive which consists of them telling you which state to register in and letting you do the rest. My home of record at the time was Mass at my parents' address, but after I joined, they moved to a different town in Mass. Neither town would let me register, so I didn't vote. This a big and well-known problem with overseas military.

Servius  Heiner  | 1980 comments Mod
Yeah, they really need to fix that.

message 24: by Chloe (new)

Chloe (countessofblooms) | 78 comments Re: NB's message #3

Here's Reid's statement regarding McCain or Obama going to Washington to work on the bailout:

"This is a critical time for our country. While I appreciate that both candidates have signaled their willingness to help, Congress and the Administration have a process in place to reach a solution to this unprecedented financial crisis.

I understand that the candidates are putting together a joint statement at Senator Obama’s suggestion. But it would not be helpful at this time to have them come back during these negotiations and risk injecting presidential politics into this process or distract important talks about the future of our nation’s economy. If that changes, we will call upon them. We need leadership; not a campaign photo op.

If there were ever a time for both candidates to hold a debate before the American people about this serious challenge, it is now."

Now, I tend to loathe Harry Reid and nearly all of his statements/actions, but I think he's really spot-on here. Something as large as the bailout requires sober discussion and thought. Piling the sideshow of the campaigns into that discussion would not be to anybody's benefit.

I especially don't see why McCain thinks he'd be of use in crafting a bailout. After all, he is the Senator who has missed more votes than any other Senator- even Senator Tim Johnson (D-SD)who is recovering from a stroke he suffered in 2006 has managed to vote on more legislation than McCain. This is gimmicky politics and should be taken as such.

message 25: by Dave (new)

Dave Russell What does it mean to suspend your campaign if you're still airing ads, sending out surrogates to the talk shows, and doing interviews with Katie Couric?

message 26: by Chloe (new)

Chloe (countessofblooms) | 78 comments A whole lot of nothing.

message 27: by Not Bill (new)

Not Bill | 1062 comments Logan...that's not what I was referring to. I was referring to his statement made the day prior (and prior to the quote you posted) where he said McCain's participation was critical. The Dem leadership saw McCain's vote as crucial to bringing along other senators still sitting on the fence - so Reid makes a public statement of McCain's support, though McCain himself had done no such thing.

Then McCain drops the bomb, Obama balks, and Reid sees the need to CYA for Obama, and then reverses himself.

Servius  Heiner  | 1980 comments Mod
From an E-mail I just got... hehehe Do you think they would sign this bill?

How does this option sound?????

AIG.......why not do it this way?????

Hi Folks,

I'm against the $85,000,000,000.00 bailout of AIG.

Instead, I'm in favor of giving $85,000,000,000 to America in a We Deserve It Dividend.

To make the math simple, let's assume there are
200,000,000 bonafide U.S. Citizens 18+.

Our population is about 301,000,000 +/- counting every man, woman and child. So 200,000,000 might be a fair stab at adults 18
and up..

So divide 200 million adults 18+ into $85 billion that equals $425,000.00.

My plan is to give $425,000 to every person 18+ as a We Deserve It Dividend.

Of course, it would NOT be tax free.

So let's assume a tax rate of 30%.

Every individual 18+ has to pay $127,500.00 in taxes.

That sends $25,500,000,000 right back to Uncle Sam.

But it means that every adult 18+ has $297,500.00 in their pocket.

A husband and wife has $595,000.00.

What would you do with $297,500.00 to $595,000.00 in your family?

Pay off your mortgage – housing crisis solved.

Repay college loans – what a great boost to new grads

Put away money for college – it'll be there

Save in a bank – create money to loan to entrepreneurs.

Buy a new car – create jobs

Invest in the market – capital drives growth

Pay for your parent's medical insurance – health care improves

Enable Deadbeat Dads to come clean – or else

Remember this is for every adult U S Citizen 18+ including the folks who lost their jobs at Lehman Brothers and every other company that is cutting back. And of course, for those serving in our Armed Forces.

If we're going to re-distribute wealth let's really do it...instead of trickling out a puny $1000.00 ( "vote buy" ) economic
incentive that is being proposed by one of our candidates for President.

If we're going to do an $85 billion bailout, let's bail out every adult U S Citizen 18+!

As for AIG – liquidate it.

Sell off its parts.

Let American General go back to being American General.

Sell off the real estate.

Let the private sector bargain hunters cut it up and clean it up.

Here's my rationale. We deserve it and AIG doesn't.

Sure it's a crazy idea that can "never work."

But can you imagine the Coast-To-Coast Block Party!

How do you spell Economic Boom?

I trust my fellow adult Americans to know how to use the $85 Billion We Deserve It Dividend more than I do the geniuses at AIG or in Washington DC .

And remember, The Family plan only really costs $59.5 Billion because $25.5 Billion is returned instantly in taxes to Uncle Sam.

Ahhh...I feel so much better getting that off my chest.

message 29: by trivialchemy (new)

trivialchemy Seriously?

I grant that a technical degree gives me a step up here, but most 3rd-graders can divide 85 billion by 200 million. Is this like Palin long-division here?

Servius  Heiner  | 1980 comments Mod
No, Like I said it was in an e-mail I just recieved. I thought it was pretty funny too.

message 31: by Lori (new)

Lori Heehee!

message 32: by Xysea (new)

Xysea  (xysea) I'm all for getting money out of the deal! I just don't see how that's going to happen, as I am not a banker.

message 33: by Cyril (new)

Cyril Just in case anyone skimmed through the email, $85,000,000,000 divided amongst 200,000,000 people is $425 not $425,000. Should have done the math before hitting "send."

message 34: by Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You. (new)

Charissa (dakinigrl) | 3620 comments Mod
I have a better idea. Give that money to me and I'll redistribute the fuck out of it.

message 35: by Not Bill (new)

Not Bill | 1062 comments No shat Dak- we're supposed to trust the same bunch of clowns to fix the problem they created in the first place? We are so screwed. We better start stockpiling Astroglide.

Oh...and Dak you tossed the f-bomb. $2 to the cuss jar.

message 36: by Cyril (new)

Cyril ***wedges himself between DC and BW***

I volunteer for the sake of the nation. And ice cream.

message 37: by Xysea (new)

Xysea  (xysea) Hey, my needs are modest. I would like my house paid off and my daughter's college education covered. It would be nice to retire, but I'd like those other two things first.

message 38: by Jackie "the Librarian", Cool Star Trek Nerd (new)

Jackie "the Librarian" | 1818 comments Mod
:::perks up:::

Someone's handing out chocolate? Over here!

message 39: by Seizure Romero (new)

Seizure Romero | 116 comments With 85 billion dollars I could buy 30,000,000,000 of these (shipping included):
[image error]

I'd have enough left over for a mocha, a movie and maybe an island.

message 40: by Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You. (new)

Charissa (dakinigrl) | 3620 comments Mod
awesome. I hereby appoint us all the official redistribution team of the nation. chocolate, movies, small islands, education, houses... hell, we can't possibly do any worse than the bastards who got us into this.

message 41: by Not Bill (new)

Not Bill | 1062 comments woot! Anchovies, please.

message 42: by Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You. (new)

Charissa (dakinigrl) | 3620 comments Mod
who let the ponies out?

message 43: by Jackie "the Librarian", Cool Star Trek Nerd (new)

Jackie "the Librarian" | 1818 comments Mod
Neigh, neigh, neigh, neigh, neigh, neigh!

message 44: by Jackie "the Librarian", Cool Star Trek Nerd (new)

Jackie "the Librarian" | 1818 comments Mod
Yowsa! Those are some showy ponies, Ko!

message 45: by Jackie "the Librarian", Cool Star Trek Nerd (new)

Jackie "the Librarian" | 1818 comments Mod
Yeah, that's what I think of when I think of ponies, too, Bunny. Chincoteague and Assateague, and round-bellied ponies.

message 46: by Seizure Romero (new)

Seizure Romero | 116 comments Ok, ok... but what about chocolate ponies?!?


Just sayin.

message 47: by Jackie "the Librarian", Cool Star Trek Nerd (new)

Jackie "the Librarian" | 1818 comments Mod
I don't know, Seizure. I'd be torn between eating it and playing with it. "Neigh, whinny! Gallop free, little pony!"
And then, if I DID play with it, there'd be the heartbreak of smudgy chocolate fingers...

Is there anyone else besides me who has vague guilty feelings when eating animal-shaped chocolate? Burning animal-shaped candles? Using animal-shaped soap?

message 48: by Seizure Romero (new)

Seizure Romero | 116 comments I would've eaten the chocolate Jesus if it was dark chocolate. Well, except for maybe the naughty bits. Did it have raspberry stigmata by any chance?

I have to go. I hear thunder.

message 49: by Jackie "the Librarian", Cool Star Trek Nerd (new)

Jackie "the Librarian" | 1818 comments Mod
IS that dark chocolate? Usually molded chocolate is milk... If it IS dark chocolate, I'm eating it.

message 50: by Jackie "the Librarian", Cool Star Trek Nerd (new)

Jackie "the Librarian" | 1818 comments Mod

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