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A Dance with Dragons (A Song of Ice and Fire, #5)
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2011 Reads > ADWD: A question for those who have finished - major spoilers

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message 1: by Kate (last edited Jul 13, 2011 08:15PM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Kate O'Hanlon (kateohanlon) | 778 comments I'm going to spoiler tag the spoilery bits in this first post in deference to those who have clicked on this accidentally, but since what I want to ask is incredibly spoilery the thread's going to be annoying if everyone who answers uses spoiler tags. So what do we think about this first post constituting 'fair warning'?
/meta

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message 2: by [deleted user] (new)

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message 3: by Aeryn98 (new)

Aeryn98 | 175 comments (view spoiler)


Peter | 142 comments (view spoiler)


Nicolai (nemoi) | 47 comments (view spoiler)


message 6: by Steir (new)

Steir | 4 comments Aegon's existence is hardly the biggest shock of the book: how about Jon's "brothers" knifing him? Several thoughts:

1. I still believe Jon is R and L's son. Nothing in the book suggests otherwise, other than the Sisters' lord's comments. And Ned himself misled in GoT by identifying the mother as "Wylla" (unless that was Lyanna's nickname).

2. Rhaegel is green, Viserion white. Bran is learning to "fly" and is a greenseer. He gets Rhaegel. Jon "Snow" of the mostly white Wall (and the white wolf) will get Viserion. They fly as the dragons (but will not be the riders) because they're skinchangers, not because they have dragon blood, although Jon may have Rhaegar's in him.

3. The book's prologue shows how skinchangers can pop into their wolves (among other things) at the moment of their death. Dying Jon will find himself in Ghost, since Varamyr identified Jon as a strong but untutored skinchanger. Alternatively, Melisandre will resurrect him like Thoros of Myr did to Catelyn (although less likely). Or it might be very cool if Jon found himself in Wun Wun the giant!

4. I thought Dany's womb was scarred and destroyed. How does she end up with "moon blood" at all in the final pre-epilogue chapter? Has her fertility been restored to her? How?

5. Varys's motivation for restoring the Targaryens is unclear. Why should he care? Given his background, as laid out by Ilyrio, he doesn't seem a loyal type.

6. What's going on with Tyrion and Penny? Does she represent his lost innocence?

Just some thoughts about the novel and no one else to share them with...


Kate O'Hanlon (kateohanlon) | 778 comments Steir wrote: "Aegon's existence is hardly the biggest shock of the book: how about Jon's "brothers" knifing him? ."

That was a different kind of shock I think I didn't expect it, but once it happened it seemed inevitable. Jon had been pissing off the Night Watch for the whole book with his fresh new ideas and his political forays. It made sense that his brothers would stab him in the back, even though I didn't see it coming.

Aegon's existence was more of a 'WTF, you played that close to your chest George' moment and is less satisfying for it.


Steir wrote: 4. I thought Dany's womb was scarred and destroyed. How does she end up with "moon blood" at all in the final pre-epilogue chapter? Has her fertility been restored to her? How?

Infertile women can still menstruate.



Steir wrote:6. What's going on with Tyrion and Penny? Does she represent his lost innocence?

Or is she just a morality pet?


message 8: by Steir (new)

Steir | 4 comments Kate wrote: "Steir wrote: "Aegon's existence is hardly the biggest shock of the book: how about Jon's "brothers" knifing him? ."

That was a different kind of shock I think I didn't expect it, but once it happe..."


Thanks, Kate! Didn't know that about infertile women and didn't know what a "morality pet" is. But having looked at the definition, that assumes Tyrion is a villain or at least an "anti-hero." Possibly the latter, but I think Tyrion is a full-fledged hero whose dealt with crappy circumstances shockingly well (it helps to be rich). Though he is mostly misunderstood by other characters, and as the book shows has a mouth that needs curbing, he also befriended Jon in GoT, was nice to Bran and most everyone else who hasn't tried to belittle or kill him. Of all the actors in the TV version, the one playing Tyrion imho captures the essence of his/her character best.


message 9: by Aeryn98 (new)

Aeryn98 | 175 comments Penny is to Tyrion what Brienne is to Jaime. They become kinder through these relationships, teaching them how to care for someone other than themselves.
However, there are times when both women are just annoying.


message 10: by Kate (last edited Jul 19, 2011 05:28PM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Kate O'Hanlon (kateohanlon) | 778 comments Steir wrote: "Steir wrote: Thanks, Kate! Didn't know that about infertile women and didn't know what a "morality pet" is. But having looked at the definition, that assumes Tyrion is a villain or at least an "anti-hero.""

Well in its broadest terms the morality pet's function is to make any character more likable by giving them someone to be nice to. However hard done by Tyrion is, whatever his motivations he's frequently an asshole.

He needs to be nice sometimes to keep the reader on side. I think a lot of people first Warmed to Tyrion when he was nice to Jon one the way to and at the Wall (well not nice to him exactly but gave him good advise and didn't patronize him).

Or maybe George will have Tyrion murder Penny horribly in order to turn us all against him, you never can tell with Martin.

(sidebar: As to the question of whether Tyrion is a hero or an anti-hero, one of the tools I've heard of for determining if a character is an anti-hero is to ask, in a traditional story would a character like this be the villain. I think with Tyrion the answer is yes).

(Oh look, more fun with anti-heroes on tvtropes.com http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php...

(Yes, I take pop-culture too seriously)


Nevan | 143 comments Kate,

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message 12: by Skip (last edited Jul 26, 2011 01:45PM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Skip | 517 comments Well "Winter is Coming" and most of the world seems woefully unprepared. None of the children rulers look prepared to do what needs to be done. And Stannis has been a walking dead man for two books. (Not literally, I am not insinuating anything).

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message 13: by Amy (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amy Ayers | 23 comments (view spoiler)


Andrew (adrew) | 426 comments Do we need these spoiler tags?

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message 15: by Kate (last edited Jul 27, 2011 02:19AM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Kate O'Hanlon (kateohanlon) | 778 comments Nevan wrote: "Kate,

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I looked up this theory and I like it... somewhat. I suppose I'm as conflicted about it as anything else. It has the potential to make things needlessly complex... but also to reduce complexity by just offing the character at an opportune moment... but then why introduce him in the first place. I suppose I'll just have to hold tight til the next book.

Andrew wrote: Do we need these spoiler tags?
I think not, but I want to abide by community standards and everyone else is using them :S


message 16: by Skip (new) - rated it 3 stars

Skip | 517 comments Kate and Andrew, my biggest issue with that thinking is the story of the water gardens, which is several generations old if it is to be believed.

Spoiler for those that don't want to know. (view spoiler)


Andrew (frontline) | 129 comments Whether or not Aegon is a true Targaryen, he seems to have the biggest army, albeit sellswords. It would make sense that if he can convince the Tyrells of his heritage the game would be all but over.


Andrew (adrew) | 426 comments Skip wrote: "Kate and Andrew, my biggest issue with that thinking is the story of the water gardens, which is several generations old if it is to be believed."

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Jared (notthatjared) | 17 comments I agree with many here that the L+R=J theory has a lot going for it, but it seems a little too tidy, to neat or convenient for me to be completely sold on it. Add the Aegon to the mix and it gets a bit more interesting.

The swapped baby/ Jon is the actual Aegon theory could be true or...

What if Aegon and John are fraternal twins? Splitting them up and keeping them a secret from each other (and nearly everyone else) would offer them some protection, and in the event one dies too early, the other could still rise to power.

Just my two cents...


message 20: by Ray (new) - rated it 5 stars

Ray | 35 comments Kate wrote: "As far as I can tell there have been absolutely no clues leading up to this (I'm not about to do a detailed re-read to find any, I imagine the fan sites will be on that any day now)."

Now that you mention it one clue that shouldn't require a detailed re-read is "the dragon has three heads." Jorah Mormont took this to mean that Dany could have two husbands, one for each of the "extra" dragons and according to some forums GRRM said that the heads need not be Targaryens. But what if the prophecy turns out to be that literal? Three dragons with three riders with Targaryen blood flowing through their veins. Daenerys has the most pure blood and so she woke the dragons. Aegon could represent the mingling of Targaryen blood with the blood of the south and Jon the mingling of Targaryen blood and the blood of the North. Aegon the conqueror had his two sisters and now Dany has her two brothers. It makes for a nice inversion.

Steir wrote: 4. I thought Dany's womb was scarred and destroyed. How does she end up with "moon blood" at all in the final pre-epilogue chapter? Has her fertility been restored to her? How?

ASoIaF depicts creatures who control reanimated corpses, shatter swords with an icy touch, and melt when poked with obsidian. A woman is found floating dead in a river for gods know how long and is resurrected by a most unlikely priest. A priestess of the same order gives birth to shadow ninjas, is both pyrokinetic and pyroprophetic. A few folks in the northern lands can transfer their consciousness into other bodies. A young girl walks through a funeral pyre to emerge with three dragon hatchlings.

You've come too far to let this become a stumbling block. After all we only have the word of a bitter old witch whose powers presumably went the way of her ashes. It's possible she was just lying too.


Andrew (adrew) | 426 comments Ray wrote: "Kate wrote: "As far as I can tell there have been absolutely no clues leading up to this (I'm not about to do a detailed re-read to find any, I imagine the fan sites will be on that any day now)."
..."


From memory doesn't Maester Aemon mention something about the three heads prophecy? and bemoan his being too old when he hears about the dragons when travelling with Sam in aFfC. It seemed to imply Targaryen's on the dragons (three heads), but when Martain presents things so vague he really can do whatever he wants. I sometimes wonder how formed the story actually is, and how much it's potentially changed since he started writing back in the 90's.


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