A Song of Ice & Fire Fans discussion

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Dance with Dragons Discussion *SPOILERS*

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message 1: by Jon (new)

Jon (FTSJ) | 41 comments Sigh* Alright let the epic book 5 discussion begin, lets start with the dazzling adventures of our little Tyrion!


message 2: by Denae (new)

Denae (whimsicalmeerkat) What dazzling adventures? (view spoiler)


message 3: by Dustin (new)

Dustin Oh, MAN, I really wish I could join this most epic of discussions!!


message 4: by Jon (new)

Jon (FTSJ) | 41 comments Yea you do have a point that it was somewhat static with Tyrion. My favorite part was probably when Melisandre *burned* Mance Rayder, I justfind that whole scenario fascinating.


message 5: by Denae (new)

Denae (whimsicalmeerkat) I was just happy that Mance hadn't completely gone out of character with all the shrieking and begging for mercy and all.


message 6: by John (new)

John (john4200) | 3 comments Do you think Jon is dead? Will his consciousness transfer to Ghost? Or will Melisandre bring Jon back kind of like Catelyn?


Jayme(the ghost reader) (jaymeiltheghostreader) | 1113 comments Anything is possible. I finally started this book last night.


message 8: by Andrew (new)

Andrew | 18 comments SPOILERS!!!

I was really shocked about what happened to Jon near the end. I had to look ahead to see if GRRM had any additional Jon Snow chapters but alas, nothing! I am holding out hope that all those daggers to the gut didn't kill him, but it's unlikely!

With Jon dead (and, it seems Stannis is dead, too) how will he track what's happening at the wall? I was thinking that maybe Sam Tarly will come back or Melissandre will play a larger role. An interesting dilemma.


message 9: by Mach (new)

Mach | 198 comments @Andrew (view spoiler)


message 10: by Jon (new)

Jon (FTSJ) | 41 comments Ok two things
1) You do not need to mark spoilers because were marked in the discussiom
2) Jon will not die due to Melisandre!


Jayme(the ghost reader) (jaymeiltheghostreader) | 1113 comments Finally one place we don' have to mark spoilers for.


message 12: by Kevin (new)

Kevin Xu (kxu65) | 33 comments I wish the book did not end on a cliffhanger.


message 13: by Jessie (Ageless Pages Reviews) (last edited Jul 19, 2011 06:47PM) (new)

Jessie  (Ageless Pages Reviews) (msjessie) Jon is not dead! I will be so PISSED if he is.
Also I love Daenerys more after this book than the previous four. Tyrion was on par with his previous appearances. I wanted more Arya/Jaime. I couldn't care less about Victarion, however. I was strangely sympathetic to Theon, who I actually said deserved to be flayed.
I was wrong. The Bastard of Bolton is fucking creepy. Excellent writing when a character is that depraved and awful.


Jessie  (Ageless Pages Reviews) (msjessie) John wrote: "Do you think Jon is dead? Will his consciousness transfer to Ghost? Or will Melisandre bring Jon back kind of like Catelyn?"

I hope NOT like Catelyn. She's a travesty and a horror!


message 15: by John (new)

John (john4200) | 3 comments Maybe like Beric Dondarrion?


Jessie  (Ageless Pages Reviews) (msjessie) Also, LOVED the revelation about Barristan + Ashara. Hope that kills that Ned + Ashara = Jon theory


message 17: by Mach (last edited Jul 20, 2011 03:30AM) (new)

Mach | 198 comments Jessie wrote: "Also, LOVED the revelation about Barristan + Ashara. Hope that kills that Ned + Ashara = Jon theory"

I doubt it, people believe what they want to no matter the evidence.


message 18: by Jon (new)

Jon (FTSJ) | 41 comments Tyrion really did not do much in this book. He kind of just journeyed.


Jessie  (Ageless Pages Reviews) (msjessie) Machavelli wrote: "Jessie wrote: "Also, LOVED the revelation about Barristan + Ashara. Hope that kills that Ned + Ashara = Jon theory"

I doubt it, people believe what they want to no matter the evidence."


True, but now I have facts to refute other than "it just doesn't work!" :D


message 20: by John (last edited Jul 20, 2011 11:57PM) (new)

John (john4200) | 3 comments The comment about Aerys finding Tyrion's mother Joanna attractive was interesting. Support for the theory that Tyrion is half Targaryen.


message 21: by Jon (new)

Jon (FTSJ) | 41 comments There is so many theories and none of the truth.


message 22: by Jax (new)

Jax (anti-cato) I doubt Jon is dead-dead. Else why put in that whole Prologue?
I was sad for Quentyn, poor boy, but I liked that he died, once more showing GRRM's love of breaking Fantasy's stale tropes.

Does anyone else get the Arthurian feel from Aegon? I wonder how GRRM is going to work Aegon/Dany.

And what about that ending? little whisperers everywhere...lovely.


message 23: by Jax (new)

Jax (anti-cato) and also: way for GRRM to tease me with Rickon :\ Ive been waiting to see what happens to that little firecracker.


Jessie  (Ageless Pages Reviews) (msjessie) Jax wrote: "I doubt Jon is dead-dead. Else why put in that whole Prologue?
I was sad for Quentyn, poor boy, but I liked that he died, once more showing GRRM's love of breaking Fantasy's stale tropes.

Does..."


Aegon feels more to me like Richard of York of the Princes in the Tower in the War of the Roses comparison. Elia, like Queen Elizabeth, had a child that was supposedly murdered and had a claimant emerge later on as that child.


message 25: by Jax (new)

Jax (anti-cato) I confess, I don't know anything about the War of the Roses (which I have read bares striking resemblance to our loved Starks/Lannisters)
But the way that Aegon is described in the Epilogue sounded to me like Arthur (after growing up with Merlin and being taught all kinds of things, but also knowing the joys of a 'normal' boyhood)


Jayme(the ghost reader) (jaymeiltheghostreader) | 1113 comments I am not sure which way to go on that. I know it is supposed to be more War of the Roses. That is what GRRM intended.


message 27: by Jax (new)

Jax (anti-cato) Sure, could be both or by this point, neither.


message 28: by Karen (new)

Karen Azinger | 256 comments I don't believe that Jon is dead (I also don't want to believe it since he is one of my favorite characters). I believe that Melisandra will save him (Bran might also do something to save him if they take his body to a weir tree.) But the Nights Watch will consider him dead, so they will elect a new lord commander, and Jon will be free of his vows since he served till "death" and he will be free to finally enter the game of thrones.
GRRM can't have really killed Jon. He's killed too many good characters.


message 29: by Rodrigo (new)

Rodrigo Moretto | 109 comments ok...just one thing...WTF
I read it all(the book) and I will read all the comments now but I know I am not the first to hate what happened to Jon.
If he is truly dead I will forever curse GRRM for this!


message 30: by Jax (new)

Jax (anti-cato) I doubt he's dead. he probably has a 'second life' like Haggon and Varamyr. Maybe i'm wrong. GRRM is a cruel master.


message 31: by Rodrigo (new)

Rodrigo Moretto | 109 comments ok, now that I read I can discuss everything.
I thought the same thing about Melissandre or Bran saving Jon somehow and liberating him from his vow. Maybe now he can be the one to finally save the north as we all wanted but knew couldn't happen because of the Oath. But we know that anything can happen here...we are gonna have to wait a long time(probably) to know this for sure.

I enjoyed Tyrion even though not much happened. I think he changed quite a bit after murdering his father. I don't think he would ever joust the way he did with Penny before...I think that now that his father is dead he feels more at peace than ever before.

I was very sorry for Quentyn and all that happened to him =/ the boy did everything he could to help Dorne but it wasn't enough. I really hoped he could have mounted one dragon and found Dany and maybe get her to follow her to the Seven Kingdoms.

I'm hoping this idea that Aegon had of leading the assault on Storm's End doesn't get him killed...if he dies he will ruin everything Varys has been doing(now we know his reasons for doing all he did!).

I liked the story about Ashara too but that doesn't discredit the theory about her and Ned IMO. If I got it right, Barristan loved Ashara and never told her but he said she liked Ned...is that right?

And I must say...I really couldn't enjoy Daenerys this time =/
She is awesome but the way she behaved wasn't how I expected. To save the city she decided to marry a member of the noble man who lived that before her...she basically did nothing...it was like she was a scared little girl from the first book. When firs there was an attack from those Harpy's Son or wathever was their name, I thought she would say something like...ok, they killed some of ours...storm those fuc*ing pyramids and kill them now!
Instead she only made her guards stay in groups and took children as hostages that couldn't be killed. Great plan...
Also her little love for Daario. I hate him. She behaved like any normal teenager who feels attracted to jerks older than her. She did not seem like the Queen of the Targaryen for me. I know she is young but I thought she wouldn't be stupid too.

And Davos an Rickon could have been more expanded right? I thought we would finally know where he is and what he is doing but nothing =/

The same goes for Jaime and Brienne. We know she is alive and she got to Jaime but then what? Has she taken him to Catelyn already? I thought we would know more about it by the end =/


message 32: by Tobin (new)

Tobin | 7 comments Jax wrote: "showing GRRM's love of breaking Fantasy's stale tropes.

Does..."


So upon completion I've been thinking about things and realized that the coming of Azor Ahai, predicted by some and mentioned by many might just be a GRRM herring. What better trope to break than the "foretold hero"? I could see no one in this 7 book storyline being that person while many try to identify them. So many other "sights" have been erroneous in one way or another. Wouldn't it be just like GRRM to include a prophecy that drove people to particular paths but which is never actually realized?

Quick hits:
Jon: Not dead...
Daario: me thinks he's dead
Banker has Asha and Theon, but I don't much care.
Who is the "girl" that took Theon away wih Brienne? Certainly not Arya, maybe Brienne learned of Sansa at the Eyrie?

A friend made a good observation that I'll repost here. That point is this, many of ASOIAF fans have wrestled with Jon Snow's parentage and that's fine, but what GRRM has done has created a tale where we're the only ones who care. It's hard to see how anyone still alive could care less about that particular pairing.

Although as I write this I realize that Jon may be released of The Watch's oath through his death (perhaps for only seconds) and then be able to engage in the Game of Thrones even more. Just a random thought...

-tpl


Jessie  (Ageless Pages Reviews) (msjessie) Rodrigo wrote: "ok, now that I read I can discuss everything.
I thought the same thing about Melissandre or Bran saving Jon somehow and liberating him from his vow. Maybe now he can be the one to finally save the ..."


A couple things:

I would definitely disagree with the "Tyrion is more at peace than ever." I think he expected peace after killing his father but so far it has eluded him, leading him on this mad quest to "find where whores go".

I felt sorry for Quentyn as well, though as Barristan says he is mud. Also now there are enough Targaryen men (Aegon, Jon if you buy R+L) to ride Rhaegal and Viserion.

And Barristan says that he and Ashara were lovers and when their child miscarried, she threw herself out of the tower. That DOES discredit the A+N=J because Ashara's misery was for another man, not because of Ned. In my mind anyway :)

And I could appreciate that Dany wanted to put her peoples needs above her own, but the Meereenese are not her people. I wanted her to move on and let them kill each other. Take the slave and go.


message 34: by Karen (new)

Karen Azinger | 256 comments I agree with Rodrigo. I don't like what GRRM did to Dany. She was such a strong and brilliant queen before, the way she gained and used the unsullied and conquered the slave cities, but in this book she becomes a stupid girl, a slave to her sex. Very disappointing and too typical in fantasy, where an author can't sustain a strong heroine. At least Arya got more interesting, although we barely saw her in this book.
And I don't want Jon to be dead. If GRRM kills off everyone we care about...then what's to care about???


Jessie  (Ageless Pages Reviews) (msjessie) Or alternatively, Aegon is a fake (possibly a Targaryen bastard of Aerion Brightflame or descended from the Blackfyre family) and Dany as "the slayer of lies" (ACoK) will reveal him as false.


message 36: by Jon (new)

Jon (FTSJ) | 41 comments Jessie wrote: "Rodrigo wrote: "ok, now that I read I can discuss everything.
I thought the same thing about Melissandre or Bran saving Jon somehow and liberating him from his vow. Maybe now he can be the one to f..."




I could not agree more with you with the Dany storyline and the typical fantasy criteria. If Jon dies and Dany becomes a weak link I honestly do not know what to look forward to besides the tyrion and arya chapters!


message 37: by Jon (new)

Jon (FTSJ) | 41 comments Whoops I meant to base my reply off of Karen


message 38: by Karen (new)

Karen Azinger | 256 comments Thanks Jon. I think Rodrigo and I are pretty much on the same page. :)


message 39: by Jon (new)

Jon (FTSJ) | 41 comments Yes, I agree.
1) What was everyones take on Dance with Dragons as a novel, did you like it, love you it, or was it so-so?
2) In scale of greatness or awfulnesss what book in the series so far would you compare it to?
3) Who was your favorite point of view character and why?


message 40: by Jon (new)

Jon (FTSJ) | 41 comments All start,
1) It was somewhat in between like it and so-so, but nowhere near the greatness of storm of swords.
2) I would compare it to clash of kings most likely since it ended old conflicts and started new ones.
3) My favorite POV would have to be Arya even though she was barely written about, I just looked forward to her POV.
BONUS
My least favorite character would have to be Dany, as I stated before she started to become an unknowledgable and typical teenager which she had not expressed in storm of swords.


message 41: by Jon (new)

Jon (FTSJ) | 41 comments Oh and one addittional question called bonus which is create your own Q and A


message 42: by Jax (new)

Jax (anti-cato) 1) I really liked it, but I still place it 4th of the 5 books. It is def better than Feast but not nearly as good as Game, Clash or Storm. Some parts were necessarily dry and I understand those parts have to be written in order for the story to progress.

2)I would compare it mostly to Feast only because both books have the middle book feeling where a whole bunch of stuff needs to happen in order for other stuff to happen. And its full of prophecies.

3)my favorite pov was Melisandre because i hated hated hated her before and this POV made me not hate her. Same with Jaime and Theon. I love the characters that i fucking thought i was supposed to hate. *love*

4) my least fave POV was Dany. booooring. Barriston's too. Normally I have a huge hard on for Tyrion, but this time I wasn't as impressed. He's much better in Westeros than anywhere else. :)


message 43: by Jon (new)

Jon (FTSJ) | 41 comments #3 Interests me that you think like that.


message 44: by Rodrigo (new)

Rodrigo Moretto | 109 comments Jessie wrote: "Rodrigo wrote: "ok, now that I read I can discuss everything.
I thought the same thing about Melissandre or Bran saving Jon somehow and liberating him from his vow. Maybe now he can be the one to f..."


I don't know, I felt he was more at ease with himself because he did things I wouldn't expect. He helped Jorah (this wouldn't be beneficial to him but he did anyway), he saved Aegon risking himself in the process(he had met the boy not so long ago for him to care so much about it), he cared for Penny (not loved...) and tried to help her through her difficulties.
Of course he is on his little quest for Tysha and he is a little obsessed about where whores go, but I think he feels better now.

Jessie wrote: "Or alternatively, Aegon is a fake (possibly a Targaryen bastard of Aerion Brightflame or descended from the Blackfyre family) and Dany as "the slayer of lies" (ACoK) will reveal him as false."

What do you mean about the slayer of lies? I don't remember that =/

Jon wrote: "Yes, I agree.
1) What was everyones take on Dance with Dragons as a novel, did you like it, love you it, or was it so-so?
2) In scale of greatness or awfulnesss what book in the series so far would..."


1) I liked it, I just expected more as we always do, humans...
2) Much better than Feast but never as great as Storm...that's as much as I can say right now =D. I must read them all over again!
3) Melissandre was good. It was nice to know how she thinks and to know that all her powers are not as we thought by seeing them from somebody else's POV. Arya too was great! I really wanted to see more about her. And I loved what Jon did because it was exactly what I wanted since he met the wildlings. How could they betray him like that =/ he was doing all he could to help everyone...when I saw what happened I simply stopped reading for half an hour because I couldn't continue!
I only loved Dany when she tamed Drogon but the rest...
I hope she is better next time. And I hope Daario is dead so she can forget that guy.


message 45: by Jon (new)

Jon (FTSJ) | 41 comments Wow everyone seems to like Melisandre, but as much as I find interest in her I find her somewhat annoying.


message 46: by Rodrigo (new)

Rodrigo Moretto | 109 comments I didn't say I like her. It was nice to know how she thinks. Especially knowing all her fireworks are caused by powders and not some special power of hers.


message 47: by Jon (new)

Jon (FTSJ) | 41 comments Ok my bad


Jessie  (Ageless Pages Reviews) (msjessie) Rodrigo wrote: "Jessie wrote: "Rodrigo wrote: "ok, now that I read I can discuss everything.
I thought the same thing about Melissandre or Bran saving Jon somehow and liberating him from his vow. Maybe now he can ..."


'Slayer of lies' is from the House of the Undying, in Qarth. Dany goes through a lot of visions/prophecies while there in ACoK I think :)


message 49: by Jax (new)

Jax (anti-cato) I guess I liked Melisandre because it showed that it was partially hocus pocus, but partially not. She doesn't seem to have the evil intentions that other people do, but she truly believes in what she's doing for the good of everyone else.


message 50: by Rodrigo (new)

Rodrigo Moretto | 109 comments Jax wrote: "I guess I liked Melisandre because it showed that it was partially hocus pocus, but partially not. She doesn't seem to have the evil intentions that other people do, but she truly believes in what..."

Exactly.

Was anyone taken by surprise with the appearance of the "children of the forest"? I thought it looked too simple the way we saw them. I wanted to know more about them. Are there any theories about who is "Coldhands" and who or what is the thing that is teaching Bran about being a warg?


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