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Archived > How much does Frank believe Claire?

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message 1: by Cristina (last edited Jul 11, 2011 08:30PM) (new)

Cristina (Cristina_) | 38 comments SPOILERS!!!






- the fake gravestone
- the miniatures; surely he recognized Bree's style
- teaching Bree how to ride and shoot
- he is an expert historian of the Jacobite period and has researched his genealogy. He could have found:
- the Lallybroch sassine document with Claire's signature
- the marriage certificate between Black Jack and Mary showing Claire as a witness
- Claire's and Jamie's published books

Besides who collected all those letters and put them together?


message 2: by Leea, Escape Artist (new)

Leea | 1239 comments That is the question Cristina that i'm dying to find out in book 8 (I hope :) I think Frank knew more than what we thought he knew...

Come on book 8 I need you. Ha!


message 3: by Carren (new)

Carren Kay | 953 comments If you remember, in one of the books (I think is was Firey Cross), when Roger and Bree went on a shooting(?) expedition, Roger discusses with Bree that perhaps Frank did know more about what happened and that he (Frank) most likely learned of Bree's existence in the 18th century and decided to make sure that she was prepared. That's why he taught her to ride, shoot, etc.. .


message 4: by Dee (new)

Dee (austhokie) | 1124 comments also when they were cleaning out the reverands house - didn't bree and roger find a book of the geneaology that Frank had asked the reverend to look into...


message 5: by Fawn (new)

Fawn | 404 comments I would love to see one of Franks published books. In another Outlander group we have a great discussion on what we think Frank may or may not have known. I don't think that it would be out of the question for Diana Gabaldon to write a novella from Frank's point of view. I know I would read it!! I would really like to know what Frank did know.


message 6: by Wendy F, biblioholic (new)

Wendy F (blessedwannab) | 3151 comments A novella from Franks POV would be so friggin awesome! just the idea is exciting.


message 7: by Leea, Escape Artist (new)

Leea | 1239 comments That would be great! Even though i'm not a fan of Frank


message 8: by Cristina (new)

Cristina (Cristina_) | 38 comments Leea wrote: "That would be great! Even though i'm not a fan of Frank"

Yes, neither am I. Not to say that his POV wouldn't be interesting and I'm sure that DG would make it an awesome read.

Why doesn't someone read his books??? Ah, Book 8!


message 9: by Wendy F, biblioholic (new)

Wendy F (blessedwannab) | 3151 comments I respect frank, he didn't have it easy either. He made mistakes, but he was still there for bree and Claire, he was a exceptional father even after everything that happened. I'd be interested in hearing his side.


message 10: by Cristina (new)

Cristina (Cristina_) | 38 comments Wendy F wrote: "I respect frank, he didn't have it easy either. He made mistakes, but he was still there for bree and Claire, he was a exceptional father even after everything that happened. I'd be interested in ..."

No, he didn't and in Echo, Claire acknowledges that they were just wrong for each other.

I do think he cheated on her while they were married during the war, and I think that is part of his make up, as well. If DG shows that Frank believed and found evidence of the time travel, and actually did things and put things in place to make it easier for Claire to go back to Jamie and for Bree to meet Jamie, etc., then Frank will have redeemed himself..an agent of True Love (cue Princess Bride)


message 11: by Dee (new)

Dee (austhokie) | 1124 comments i think Frank/Claire and Jamie/Claire brings up a good discussion about what love is...it can be that comfortable love that F/C had, or it can be the rocky road which seems to be so much of J/C...both have their advantages and disadvantages

thoughts?


message 12: by Wendy F, biblioholic (new)

Wendy F (blessedwannab) | 3151 comments I think that Frank loved Claire, and I think that Claire loved Frank (even in the end). I think that Frank had sex with women (or a woman) when he was in the army, yes. I also think that if he had confessed she would have forgiven him. But I also think if Claire had never gone back in time he would have ultimately been faithful to her when he came back.

Claire DID go back in time, and she found an unparalleled love there. When she came back she was incapable of giving Frank her heart. She could only offer him half a marriage because everything that she was belonged to Jamie. I believe THIS was the catalyst to his affairs. He had affairs of the body, Claires heart belonged to another man. I believe that Frank cheats when there is distance, either actual physical distance, or the mental distance that was there later.

But in the end, he could have left her. He could have refused to give Bree his name. Claire didn't want him to. He tried to be supportive, and he was good to Bree. Sure he had a hard time with Claire going to be a surgeon, but I think that was the times (we can't be okay with Jamie spanking her and say 'it was the times' and not be okay with Frank's struggles with her leaving the house to become a doctor. Those were also the times. A womans place was in the household.) In the end he did support her, and he took care of them both.

I thought it was fitting that Jamie was greatful for that. And Claire respected Frank, and because of that I will too.

As far as love, I think that you can have an arrangement that will lead to love and that you can be happy with that, but I think I personally would absolutely definitely much rather have the heart pounding love of Jamie and Claire.

And interestingly enough I think that what Bree has with Roger is more like the love between Frank and Claire, I just don't feel the same passion that I feel with J&C.


message 13: by Leea, Escape Artist (new)

Leea | 1239 comments Wendy... you are so right, as always :) Frank was a wonderful father to bree and that must have been hard to raise another mans child especially because he knew how much Claire loved/loves Jamie.


message 14: by Wendy F, biblioholic (new)

Wendy F (blessedwannab) | 3151 comments boy oh boy, am I long winded.


message 15: by Wendy F, biblioholic (new)

Wendy F (blessedwannab) | 3151 comments Leea wrote: "Wendy... you are so right, as always :) Frank was a wonderful father to bree and that must have been hard to raise another mans child especially because he knew how much Claire loved/loves Jamie."

Definitely, and especially because Bree so obviously looked like this other man. Every time he looked at her all he'd see was the man that Claire was with for those years. And he loved her anyway. That says something about the kind of man he was.


message 16: by Laurie (new)

Laurie | 1 comments I think that Frank ultimately believed Claire and knew more than he let on. I forget which book -- Brianna found a letter from Frank in which he told her she was either a dangerous person or in some danger. Frank was ambivalent about which word to use.

If Mama Bear goes back in time to rescue Jemmy --- Bree will be in danger, and Rob will find out that Bree can be a very dangerous person for the sake of those she loves.


message 17: by Wendy F, biblioholic (new)

Wendy F (blessedwannab) | 3151 comments I think he researched and found stuff too. Frank would have a really good Novella to tell.


message 18: by Cristina (new)

Cristina (Cristina_) | 38 comments Brava Wendy!


message 19: by Wendy F, biblioholic (new)

Wendy F (blessedwannab) | 3151 comments Hahaha, thanks. These books make feel so passionate.


message 20: by Patty (new)

Patty | 190 comments I can agree with most of what was said except for the part about Bree and Roger I don't think that b/r marriage is anything like F&C. Bree even told Roger that she did not want him to stay with her out of obligation. She had seen both types of marriages, one of obligation and one of love and she wanted a marriage like J&C. Now it's not there yet but I think with time and age Bree & Roger will get there. Just my opinion.


message 21: by Jen (at last!) (last edited Jul 23, 2011 09:38AM) (new)

Jen (at last!) (jenkeith) | 1052 comments Patty wrote: "I can agree with most of what was said except for the part about Bree and Roger I don't think that b/r marriage is anything like F&C. Bree even told Roger that she did not want him to stay with he..."


I think Frank did the best he could. He was never cruel or treated Bree as anything other than his beloved daughter. I think he and Claire just ended up being two strangers living side by side and that's so sad.


Bree and Roger are passionate in their own way. I also think they've had a harder go at it both being from modern times and all the things that they had thrust upon them once passing through the stones. I agree that their marriage is most definitely not like Claire and Frank's. It's not yet Jamie and Claire's, but it's closer to that than the other. I feel that they both truly love one another and are dedicated to one another and their children. I've enjoyed watching their relationship blossom under all that's happened.


message 22: by Wendy F, biblioholic (new)

Wendy F (blessedwannab) | 3151 comments I will concede and say that I don't mean that Roger and Bree's relationship is like Frank and CLaires AFTER she went back to the past. I do not think that Bree and Roger are in a marriage that is like living with strangers. I think that Bree and Roger's relationship is like Frank and Claires in the beginning of Outlander. I think that they are in love, for sure. I dont doubt that.

I also know that Bree told Roger that she didn't want a marriage of obligation, but that she wanted one of love. Well I think that CLaire thought she had that with frank, UNTIL she met Jamie.

It's just my opinion though. I still love Roger and Bree. I'm on the side who likes reading about them both, haha.


message 23: by Jen (at last!) (last edited Jul 23, 2011 06:07PM) (new)

Jen (at last!) (jenkeith) | 1052 comments Wendy F wrote: "I will concede and say that I don't mean that Roger and Bree's relationship is like Frank and CLaires AFTER she went back to the past. I do not think that Bree and Roger are in a marriage that is ..."

Oh, in the beginning! Ok. That makes more sense. I can see how you mean that. There's kind of the "elephant in the room" due (view spoiler). Roger made the right decision and in the end it was because of love and not obligation. I think he even mentioned something to the affect of not being able to live without her, didn't he? They have, thankfully, made it past that. Rog's pretty dang sexy in his own way, too. ;)

I actually like and respect Frank for taking Claire back and accepting/loving Bree. I think Diana wanted us to be sympathetic to him and show us that he's not a bad man. Claire wouldn't have loved him in the first place had he been. I really can't blame him for the infidelity. Claire was unfaithful out of, first, necessity and then eventually because she'd found the love of her life. I don't really see that Claire minded it by that point b/c she was in love with/grieving for another man. She was never able to give Frank a true marriage from that point on. The fact that they remained together despite all that is a very sad, but wonderful testament to loyalty and responsibility.


message 24: by Wendy F, biblioholic (new)

Wendy F (blessedwannab) | 3151 comments I like and Respect Frank too. It didn't happen right away, but in flashback episodes and especially after the letter that Roger memorized. He did the best he could with what he had, and he was a good father to Bree.

I like Roger alot too. I think that he's a very deep character and I feel for him because he seems to always get the shaft. He followed Bree to the past and struggled to find who he could be there. He couldn't shoot. He wasn't great at the things Jamie was, what he thought 'men' were supposed to be. He was a scholar. It took him so long to find his place back then. But he finally did. He found his calling in helping the people with their devotion. Then it was all ripped away from him again and he had to start all over. He couldn't go back to the present day and his old life because he was a different man, he was changed completely. He was lost all over again. To make things worse, both in the past and present, he watched Bree constantly excel (she's her fathers daughter). I would have been Roger in this story, so I really care about him.


message 25: by Jen (at last!) (new)

Jen (at last!) (jenkeith) | 1052 comments Wendy F wrote: "I like and Respect Frank too. It didn't happen right away, but in flashback episodes and especially after the letter that Roger memorized. He did the best he could with what he had, and he was a ..."

I agree! That's what's so great about Diana. You like Frank in the onset of Outlander. You then forget completely about him because Jamie eclipses him. However, she shows us that he is a good man. She shows us that it's hard to judge b/c he's an imperfect man who has given a lot in the end to both his women. It makes my heart hurt. Oh, and that letter he wrote to Rev Wakefield. Gosh.

I fear we have, yet again, gone off topic. LOL It's so hard to stay on track! I can talk ad nauseum about any part of this series.


message 26: by Fawn (new)

Fawn | 404 comments Wendy F wrote: "I like and Respect Frank too. It didn't happen right away, but in flashback episodes and especially after the letter that Roger memorized. He did the best he could with what he had, and he was a ..."

Great analysis of Rodger Wendy. Well said!


message 27: by Wendy F, biblioholic (new)

Wendy F (blessedwannab) | 3151 comments Thanks! I think I've said that before in this group, back when people were putting down Roger and Bree in the 'Least Favorite Character' thread.


message 28: by Jen (at last!) (new)

Jen (at last!) (jenkeith) | 1052 comments Wendy F wrote: "Thanks! I think I've said that before in this group, back when people were putting down Roger and Bree in the 'Least Favorite Character' thread."

Awww, people put them in the "least favorite" thread? :( Not cool.


message 29: by Wendy F, biblioholic (new)

Wendy F (blessedwannab) | 3151 comments People really dont like them.


message 30: by Leah (new)

Leah (leah_moss) | 91 comments I think that Roger & Bree are in the throws of parenthood...in the trenches! I am currently in this stage of life with 5 yr, 3 yr and 9 mo. BOYS and it isn't easy. I am listening to the series now (just started ABOSAA) and I really relate to Bree & Rog and their frustrations. They can't be free to be spontaneous in their relationship or explore themselves and where they fit-in in the 18th century. People don't like them, but I think they are just misunderstood.


message 31: by Dee (new)

Dee (austhokie) | 1124 comments Leah - that's a good point...Jamie and Claire never got to deal with that and aside from those flash-backs by claire in voyager we don't see all that much of brianna being raised like we are with jem and mandy


message 32: by Jen (at last!) (last edited Jul 26, 2011 08:28PM) (new)

Jen (at last!) (jenkeith) | 1052 comments Very good point, Leah. Jamie and Claire were able to go at it like rabbits and develop their relationship b/c they hadn't had kids yet and then were reunited in Voyager after their child was fully grown. It would have been interesting to see how they would have been in the throws of parenthood.

I've always liked all the characters, but especially love Bree and Roger. I like seeing how they try to adapt to 18th century life. I feel for their plight. I admire their gumption to make it work.


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