Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix (Harry Potter, #5) Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix discussion


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Thestrals???

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Juliet Why could Harry only see the thestrals this year? I know you have to have seen someone die to see them, and he saw Cedric's murder, but hadn't he also seen his mother die when he was a baby?


message 2: by Kaleigh - Captain Bubbles ESTP(intj) (last edited Jul 10, 2011 07:24PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Kaleigh - Captain Bubbles ESTP(intj) I know I couldn't understand that either. Maybe when Voldemort killed Harry's mom, The protection of her love surrounded Harry so maybe she wasn't really dead to Harry. To confusing? I am trying to explain the best way I can.


Angie he didn't remember seeing her being killed...that's what I think :-)


message 4: by Kelly (last edited Jul 10, 2011 08:51PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kelly Maybe he closed his eyes? That did confuse me too...


Kaleigh - Captain Bubbles ESTP(intj) Yeah, maybe he wasn't old enough to count.


Angie ~aka Reading Machine~ I don't think it's a matter of his age at all. I believe you would have to had witnessed a death or experienced one in order to see a Thestral. This is just my opinion and based on the explanation J.K. Rowling gave for how you see Thestrals as well.


Lostt agreed....
Perhaps its just because harry was too young at the time to understand what actually happened...he was too young to even understand about life and death....


message 8: by Kerri (last edited Jul 11, 2011 07:05AM) (new) - rated it 2 stars

Kerri Does it make it more or less magical? Before Harry, and I, knew that threstrals were pulling the carriage it seemed magical because most of the students at Hogwarts couldn't see them and it made Harry's world seem much more magical as I read it. Then when I found out threstrals were doing the work I guess it's still magical, but not in the same way, because it was a "Fantastical beast." I think that's why Harry couldn't see them until his 5th year because Rowling wanted to give the readers a magical experience, and our perspective is through Harry's, soooo, maybe that's the reason, that and... wasn't Harry's 5th year the first time he actually took a carriage up to Hogwarts? (I'm not sure)


Juliet Angie wrote: "I don't think it's a matter of his age at all. I believe you would have to had witnessed a death or experienced one in order to see a Thestral. This is just my opinion and based on the explanation ..."

But what I'm asking is ,didn't he also witness the death of his mother when he was a baby? So why did he just start seeing them this year?


✿Sandra This is a great question, and I have to admit, I have never really put a lot of thought into it. Once I read it, I was very curious. I did some searching, and I got this information from http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/The...

■Harry also had the chance to witness at least two people die before the death of Cedric Diggory in Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. His mother was murdered by Lord Voldemort when he was one, and Professor Quirrell in his first year. Despite this, Harry is not able to see the Thestrals until the beginning of his fifth year. J. K. Rowling has explained this stating that he was in his crib when his mother was murdered, and passed out before Quirrell died. It's also possible that when his parents died, Harry was too young to truly understand the concept of accepting someone's death. This creates a paradox in the films, since the first film appears to show Harry seeing Quirrell die.


Juliet Sandra wrote: "This is a great question, and I have to admit, I have never really put a lot of thought into it. Once I read it, I was very curious. I did some searching, and I got this information from http://h..."
thanks! now I understand


✿Sandra Sure :)


message 14: by Caitlin (last edited Jul 22, 2011 11:50AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Caitlin I prefer the reason of not being able to understand life and death. Being in the crib as an excuse of not seeing his mother's death is tenuous at best (babies love to stand up and scream in their crib), though it is plausible and I won't discount it.

EDITED to say: that and J.K. can whatever the heck she wants, she created the HP universe.


Kaleigh - Captain Bubbles ESTP(intj) Totally. Who likes to visit the HP Universe???? I DO!!!


Kaleigh - Captain Bubbles ESTP(intj) Anyone going to answer?


Angie ~aka Reading Machine~ Juliet wrote: "Angie wrote: "I don't think it's a matter of his age at all. I believe you would have to had witnessed a death or experienced one in order to see a Thestral. This is just my opinion and based on th..."

Harry is too young to really remember much about his parent's death in particularly his mother's at such a young age. I stand by what I said in my previous post as well.


rosebee Kaleigh Smith.~*~*~*~*~An Inkweaver. wrote: "Yeah, maybe he wasn't old enough to count."

haha that made me smile;) So I agree then


rosebee L.W.M??


Forrest Wow... I loved these books and never thought to ask this question. I'd always just assumed due to seeing Cedric die, he could see the thestrals. I never factored in his mother's death or Quirrel's death. Nice discussion, though... It'd be interesting to know the real answer.


message 22: by Sean (new) - rated it 5 stars

Sean the jedi wizard time traveling ninja Sadly, I think I'd be able to see thestrals


✿Sandra Sean wrote: "Sadly, I think I'd be able to see thestrals"

Read message 10 to see how J.K. Rowling explained it.


message 24: by Sean (new) - rated it 5 stars

Sean the jedi wizard time traveling ninja I am so confused, which makes no sense since all of you are right


message 25: by Sean (new) - rated it 5 stars

Sean the jedi wizard time traveling ninja Wouldn't it be in one of trewlawneys bad omen books, you know death, isn't that like her deal and stuff?!


Kaleigh - Captain Bubbles ESTP(intj) *Rose* wrote: "L.W.M??"

Laugh With Me. I made it up. :)


Juliet Kaleigh~*~*~*~*~An Inkweaver wrote: "*Rose* wrote: "L.W.M??"

Laugh With Me. I made it up. :)"


yes you did


Kaleigh - Captain Bubbles ESTP(intj) Well, she asked! Okay!? Hello Juliet. Long time no...chat.


Stephen Roode Well this one friends sums up to another one of those lovely J K Rowling plot holes in which something happens but then a similar event occurred prior and it overlaps creating a huge problem.

The thestral one is a blatant plot hole and her explanation is laudable "He had no comprehension of death" please J K Rowling do not insult you're readers intelligence. My Aunt died from lung cancer when I was 7-8 did I know she was terminal yes did I know of death yes. I saw death in the metaphorical sense and Rowling's explanation insults intelligence also her research as many infants from 1 - 4 have flashbacks of how they saw death.


Andrea Kaleigh~*~*~*~*~An Inkweaver wrote: "Okay."

Thestrals arre awesome yo!!!! =)


message 32: by [deleted user] (new)

Juliet wrote: "Why could Harry only see the thestrals this year? I know you have to have seen someone die to see them, and he saw Cedric's murder, but hadn't he also seen his mother die when he was a baby?"

i think, that harry never actually SAW his mom die, he was just THERE so that means cedric was the only one. Quirrel i GUESS wasn't really killed i mean, it was more like he evaporated.


rosebee Kaleigh~*~*~*~*~An Inkweaver wrote: "*Rose* wrote: "L.W.M??"

Laugh With Me. I made it up. :)"


Ohh I see;) I like that


Kaleigh - Captain Bubbles ESTP(intj) :) Me too. Of course. *laughs*


message 35: by Sarah (last edited Aug 09, 2011 04:21PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Sarah I think it was a combination of him coming face to face with Voldemort and watching him kill Cedric...he was only a year old when his mother died, so he couldn't really remember it. Also, I don't remember in the book (I know in the movies they alluded to it) anyplace where it says that Harry WATCHED his mother die. If I'm wrong, someone please tell me :-)

Also, I don't think he SAW Quirrel die...he doesn't find out that Quirrel is dead until later on in the hospital wing when Dumbledore tell him.


Kaleigh - Captain Bubbles ESTP(intj) Well, he sort of watched his mother die. Because Lily brought Harry upstairs and put him in his crib. Then in the description of what happened Harry watched his mother die and then started crying.


Sarah I must have missed that...I thought Harry being in the same room was a movie thing. I'll have to look that up again :-)


Hannah I think it's actually knowing and caring for someone before they die. Harry and Cedric had become friends through surviving the triwizard tournament together, but he didn't really know his mother that well, did he. He was only a baby, and probably didn't know anything about his mother other than she was his mother, and she took care of him. With Quirrel, he barely knew Quirrel, and since he saw him as Voldemort's accomplice, so he wouldn't really care about his death.


Kaleigh - Captain Bubbles ESTP(intj) Nope. It was a book thing too. :)


message 40: by [deleted user] (new)

Juliet wrote: "Why could Harry only see the thestrals this year? I know you have to have seen someone die to see them, and he saw Cedric's murder, but hadn't he also seen his mother die when he was a baby?"

I definitely agree. THat's what I have yet to figure out


message 41: by [deleted user] (new)

Sandra wrote: "This is a great question, and I have to admit, I have never really put a lot of thought into it. Once I read it, I was very curious. I did some searching, and I got this information from http://h..."

Nothing came up on the site.


message 42: by Jameelah (new) - added it

Jameelah L Well it is a bit confusing it could be because the threstrals were probably where Harry was.


message 43: by Emma (new) - rated it 5 stars

Emma Well, we can debate all this we want, but there was another serious flaw that I noticed. After Cedric's death, the students took the carriages back to Hogsmeade to board the Hogwarts express. Harry did not see the thestrals then, as he supposedly should have. Simple mistake. Perhaps J.K. had simply not given all that much thought to thestrals yet? I mean, did she really have the entire story all ready in her head by the third novel (when the carriages were first introduced)? I commend J.K. on all of her work, however. How she managed to maintain this magical world is beyond me. They remain among my favorite books. And I only notice her tiny mistakes because I love them so much.


rosebee Emma wrote: "Well, we can debate all this we want, but there was another serious flaw that I noticed. After Cedric's death, the students took the carriages back to Hogsmeade to board the Hogwarts express. Harr..."

oh good point! I'll have to re-read that part!


Shélah This is (as others have said) an oversight on JK Rowlings part, and one she attempted to explain away (very poorly). In fairness, the blame cannot fall solely with Rowling - her editor(s) should have caught this, but I think most of us (especially those of us who read the first editions) know that a LOT got past those editors who were more concerned with publication deadlines than continuity and plot holes.


Michaela He doesn't remember seeing his mother die and he was just a baby when his parents die maybe you have to see death and remember it.


message 47: by [deleted user] (new)

I think he had to understand what he was seeing and, because he was too young to know death, the Threstrals didn't affect him in the first 4 books.


Lea (Peeta's #1 Fangirl!) That could be true..


Ciara I agree with Angie on her first post. But, maybe there were no Thestrals around before this book?
He was only a baby when his mother died, so he probably wasn't exactly taking it all in.


message 50: by Lou (new)

Lou Hatton He obviously did remember his mother's death, at least after the dementors in book 3. It's just an unresolved/unresolvable plothole, sadly.


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