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Policies & Practices > book cover image changing unnecessarily

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message 1: by Lobstergirl (new)

Lobstergirl This is annoying. All these people changed the book cover image of this edition, when they should have been creating alternate cover editions instead.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/edits/2...

I know when I shelved this book, I shelved this edition:



That's the edition I read, and I made sure to shelve the corresponding cover and corresponding ISBN. So at that point, the image should not change. Yet now I am forced to look at this movie tie-in edition:



Just a heads-up, I am going to change it back but I didn't want to do that right after posting this.


message 2: by Gerd (new)

Gerd | 1039 comments Ah the same old problem- It should really be possible to add multible covers to a ISBN number, that would solve the problem with the movie tie-in editions.


message 3: by vicki_girl (new)

vicki_girl | 2765 comments Maybe adding a librarian note with info about adding alternate covers would help...


message 4: by Vicky (new)

Vicky (librovert) | 2459 comments My personal policy about book covers is that I won't change them unless I'm uploading a better quality image of what is already there. Even if I have a physical book in my hand with that ISBN number, you never know who has the same ISBN number book with a different cover. So I make an alternate cover edition.

I don't think that all librarians understand that an ISBN can be reused, and we all know not all librarians are members of this group or reads the manual. So they see a cover that isn't what they have and assume it's wrong. Which is annoying, yes, but not incorrect.

I think a note under the "delete picture" link on the edit book page that says "If you are uploading a different cover, please read this information about Alternate Cover Editions first." - or something to that effect - might help spread awareness of this.


message 5: by Jessica (new)

Jessica | 963 comments I think that's a great idea Vicky! Seconded!


message 6: by Kiri (last edited Jul 10, 2011 11:17AM) (new)

Kiri | 20 comments I third Vicky's idea. And I think Abigail's ETA should be examined because I think that also happens with images that are imported from other sites.

ETA Sandi wrote (next post): "Vicky wrote: "I don't think that all librarians understand that an ISBN can be reused"
That is very true. If you don't work in the publishing industry you won't know about that."


This is so true. I didn't realize that until I was working with French editions of The Three Musketeers and was getting frustrated over the covers and the publication dates being incorrect. it took me weeks to work out what was going on. I didn't change anything until I did know but still.. I can tell you having a physical book in my hand that I had bought in France and looking at other data that was obviously correct was terribly confusing. =)


message 7: by Sandi (new)

Sandi Vicky wrote: "I don't think that all librarians understand that an ISBN can be reused"

That is very true. If you don't work in the publishing industry you won't know about that.


message 8: by James (new)

James (james_k_bowers) | 152 comments Lobstergirl wrote: "This is annoying. All these people changed the book cover image of this edition, when they should have been creating alternate cover editions instead..."

Just went through the same issue over Mostly Harmless. A case of same ISBN, very different cover art. I ended up creating the Alternate Cover edition using the new cover, then re-posting the old cover, then pointing the one who posted the new cover toward the Alternate. I don't remember asking him about his experience as a librarian, but maybe the other librarian was newer and just hadn't yet learned how to create an Alternate Cover edition. In any case, he's on track now...


Vicky wrote: "...I think a note under the "delete picture" link on the edit book page that says "If you are uploading a different cover, please read this information about Alternate Cover Editions first." - or something to that effect - might help spread awareness of this."

I agree with your idea in theory, Vicky... However, I worry that a simple note would just be ignored. As another possible solution, I'd suggest this:

As much as I abhor pop-up windows, this would be an excellent time for one -- book cover images should not be deleted often (only when uploading a better quality image, or removing an obviously incorrect image) and perhaps using a pop-up as a speed bump would have more impact than an easily ignored note.

When "Delete photo" is clicked, a pop-up window would appear, asking for an answer to, "WHY do you want to delete the existing cover image?"

For response, four options would be available to click: "Upload a different cover for this ISBN", "Upload SAME cover with Higher Quality", "Incorrect cover image", or "Oops, my mistake - DO NOT DELETE".

In any case except the last, a system message could be generated in the inbox of the person who uploaded the deleted image, telling them their image was removed, by whom, and for which reason (including a link to the edition in question). If the "Upload a different cover for this ISBN" option is selected, the person could be given the option to immediately create the Alternate Cover edition (or, if our programmers were savvy enough, it could automatically create an Alternate Cover edition using the same info as the original record with the new image).


message 9: by Lobstergirl (new)

Lobstergirl Sandi wrote: "Vicky wrote: "I don't think that all librarians understand that an ISBN can be reused"

That is very true. If you don't work in the publishing industry you won't know about that."


If you've been a librarian on Goodreads, you ought to know this. There are enough threads about it that there's no excuse not to know.


message 10: by Lobstergirl (last edited Jul 10, 2011 06:38PM) (new)

Lobstergirl Abigail wrote: "I agree - a note to that effect, where someone changing the image cannot fail to notice it (theoretically), is a good idea.

ETA: although sometimes images are changed automatically, aren't they? I know sometimes a new edition comes out, and the new image seems to have uploaded automatically, from wherever. "


Yes, the image can change automatically if it's directly linked to Amazon (or Barnes and Noble, I suppose). But if a user has saved and uploaded an image and the cover is using that image, a refresh from Amazon won't change the image, I don't believe. At any rate, in this particular case the image was changed repeatedly by librarians, as indicated in the librarian change log, rather than updating automatically.


message 11: by Lobstergirl (new)

Lobstergirl James, your remedy is somewhat cumbersome, but I would still prefer it to what is happening now.


message 12: by Sandi (new)

Sandi Lobstergirl wrote: "If you've been a librarian on Goodreads, you ought to know this. There are enough threads about it that there's no excuse not to know. "

I was refering to a new librarian with no experience. I don't remember it well now but I think the part of the manual that mentions ISBN issues is very short, easily overlooked. A warning pop-up when trying to delete a picture might be a good idea.


message 13: by James (new)

James (james_k_bowers) | 152 comments Lobstergirl wrote: "James, your remedy is somewhat cumbersome, but I would still prefer it to what is happening now."

Cumbersome, no doubt... but since cover images don't often need to be deleted, triggering the annoying pop-up might eliminate some of these "drive-by image upload" incidents...


message 14: by Vicky (last edited Jul 11, 2011 09:47AM) (new)

Vicky (librovert) | 2459 comments Lobstergirl wrote: "If you've been a librarian on Goodreads, you ought to know this. There are enough threads about it that there's no excuse not to know.
"


In theory yes, but there are tons of librarians who aren't subscribed to this group and tons of librarians who haven't read the librarian manual.

Is this acceptable for a librarian? No, it shouldn't be. But that's the way things are. I'm sure there are librarians who requested the status to keep their collection "perfect." These librarians are going to insist on changing covers to match their books without reading the manual.

The more I think about this, the more I wonder what really would help the situation. The suggestions from James and I might help deter some librarians, but there will still be librarians who will blatantly disregard this because they think they are correct.

I don't think that image changing is the only problem we have. I've seen librarians disregard librarian notes to not merge an edition with others, I've seen NAB'd books that should be legitimate books, and zillions of other issues because of the ignorance of a librarian.

To play a little devil's advocate, I probably changed 100+ book covers in the past two weeks. They were either better quality images or language appropriate covers. If I had to click a pop-up window to delete every image I deleted, I would have been pretty annoyed. :)

I feel like the solutions we've provided are also making more hassle for librarians who do follow the rules.

That said, I think the solution is not in making changes to the way books are edited, but in making sure that Goodreads Librarians are educated in the policies. I noticed some old threads about ways to do this, but it doesn't look like they came to a conclusion or implemented anything.

A few suggestions to that end:

1. Posting on the librarian group may be intimidating for new librarians. It seems kind of cheesy, but a "New Librarian Welcome" thread could help break the ice for new librarians posting here. New librarians will feel welcome and veteran librarians are aware of who the new librarians are.

2. Along with the welcome, a list of librarians who are willing to help new librarians learn the ropes. Nothing formal, just a simple list of librarians who are willing to answer questions through messaging to encourage new librarians who are intimidated by the group to ask questions.

3. In addition to super-librarians and librarians, a third status for new librarians. These librarians would not have access to all book editing tools (for instance, they could not delete book covers). This would encourage new librarians to post here when problems arise that they are unable to fix, and a librarian can fix it or explain why the change should not be made. This would be a time based rank, so the would be upgraded to librarian at the end of the time frame.

4. A "Report Librarian" button on the librarian change log for a book. I imagine Goodreads/Otis/Rivka/Other Employees get messages all the time from people reporting librarians. This button would provide a streamlined method both for librarians to report a librarian and for Goodreads to receive this information. This would also make it so that they didn't have to look into every single infraction, but could be alerted when a librarian has been reported x times and can then look into that librarian.

5. I've seen mention of a quiz for librarians, and I wonder if this wouldn't be a good idea for rogue librarians rather than all members applying to be a librarian. If a member is reported x times their librarian status could be frozen until they pass a short quiz about the librarian policies.


Holy crap... I've written a novel. I'm going to leave it at that. For now, lol.


message 15: by Shay (new)

Shay | 179 comments James wrote: "Lobstergirl wrote: "James, your remedy is somewhat cumbersome, but I would still prefer it to what is happening now."

Cumbersome, no doubt... but since cover images don't often need to be deleted,..."


Is there a reason why deleted book covers arent't "stored" somewhere? For example, I wanted to add to a description the other day and when I copied and pasted it, I deleted the existing description. The existing info contained something that should have been kept. So, I went back into my edits and copied and pasted it back in. In other words, the original description was preserved somewhere. Is that something that could be done with pictures? So that even if the picture is deleted from the GR page a librarian could to back into the log and find them without having to scan a picture or go into the librarian's own picture archives?


message 16: by Paula (new)

Paula (paulaan) | 7027 comments Lobstergirl wrote: "This is annoying. All these people changed the book cover image of this edition, when they should have been creating alternate cover editions instead.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/edits/2......"


Lobstergirl, I generally in these situations message the other parties involved - linking to the Alternative cover instructions and linking to any appropriate threads. There is standard wording available on the GR Librarians google doc site

https://docs.google.com/View?id=dg4dd...

If you want me to do it let me know


message 17: by James (new)

James (james_k_bowers) | 152 comments Vicky wrote: "...Is this acceptable for a librarian? No, it shouldn't be. But that's the way things are. I'm sure there are librarians who requested the status to keep their collection "perfect." These librarians are going to insist on changing covers to match their books without reading the manual..."

I am one of those individuals who insists on keeping my collection "perfect" -- which is why I have adopted this methodology:
(1) If I was there first, I refuse to let a dreaded cover-changer force me to create an ACA because they decide to replace the cover art (I don't mind building an ACA edition with their cover art, pointing them to it, and putting back the cover art that was there before they made the change),
(2) If I was NOT there first, I create the Alternate Cover Art edition (ACA) needed so as not to disrupt others by become another cover-changers,
(3) If I have a better quality image of the same cover art (or an image of any reasonable quality if there is no image), I will upload it (after saving a copy of the previous image on my PC just in case).
(4) I'm all for temporary suspension of librarian status for those who continually abuse the "Delete photo" (not that this item makes a great difference in the grand scheme of things).


Vicky wrote: "...To play a little devil's advocate, I probably changed 100+ book covers in the past two weeks. They were either better quality images or language appropriate covers. If I had to click a pop-up window to delete every image I deleted, I would have been pretty annoyed. :) ..."

If we merge your "New Librarian" idea with my pop-up idea we might have something... that pop-up could just be switched off once a librarian graduates from Bootcamp Recruit to Veteran, benefiting goodreads by having trained veteran librarians...


(Annoyance, noun, 1. just another service I provide free of charge...) ;)


message 18: by [ A ] (new)

[ A ] | 51 comments This type of thing drives me absolutely bonkers, and is one of the reasons I haven't added my entire book collection to Goodreads. Alternate Cover Editions aren't a good solution, imo. ;)


message 19: by Dan (new)

Dan (daniel-san) | 2 comments Vicky wrote: "1. ... a "New Librarian Welcome" thread could help break the ice for new librarians posting here.

2. Along with the welcome, a list of librarians who are willing to help new librarians learn the ropes. "

3. In addition to super-librarians and librarians, a third status for new librarians.

4. A "Report Librarian" button on the librarian change log for a book.

5. I've seen mention of a quiz for librarians, and I wonder if this wouldn't be a good idea for rogue librarians rather than all members applying to be a librarian.


1. I love the idea, and it seems like a no-brainer to get it started.
2. Again, excellent idea. Those who post here often might be willing to "mentor" the new librarians.
3. This is an interesting idea, but it would need some fleshing out. Part of the usefulness of GR is due to its simplicity, so I'd hate to add more layers to the system unless it's really necessary.
4. This may work, but having a semi-automatic system built around reporting librarians may be excessive, but I don't know how pervasive these issues are.
5. A quiz sounds like a neat idea, but I'm sure the answers would be easily Googled, so the person would not necessarily have to have read anything. Maybe it needs to be an essay test! :)


message 20: by David (new)

David Glasgow (davidmglasgow) | 28 comments As one who's been a librarian for only a few weeks, and still trembles a bit before clicking "Submit" even when I'm copying text directly off the back of a book into a formerly blank field, I think the "pop-up" (with or without a "new-librarian" clause) is an excellent suggestion. (And yes, I'm one who shouts at my computer, "Of COURSE I'm sure!" with great frequency.)

But I'd feel better knowing that if I were about to do something that someone else is going to have to UN-do, I could count on a gentle warning from the system: "Hey, dude--lots of people THINK they want to do what you're about to do, but they really want to do THIS, instead....."

Thanks, all, for such thoughtful conversations about what I'm sure are frustrating issues for those of you who know GR backwards and forwards!


message 21: by [deleted user] (new)

Lobstergirl, is the first image in the OP your cover? Because that's what mine is, and it doesn't match what's there now. I saw your note when I went to see what was going down and, thinking you had set your copy, created an alternate cover page. I deleted it, however, after reading this thread more closely.


message 22: by Vicky (last edited Aug 03, 2011 06:24PM) (new)

Vicky (librovert) | 2459 comments It looks like it was changed yesterday by a newly-minted librarian.

About having to take a quiz to become a librarian... :x


message 23: by [deleted user] (new)

Thank you for confirming, Vicky.

I'll keep my mouth shut on the whole new librarian thing. You know, seeing as I am one, and how I just created and deleted an ACP in less than an hour... Yikes.


message 24: by Lobstergirl (new)

Lobstergirl AAAARGGGH. I cannot believe someone changed it. People need to PAY ATTENTION - it's a Vintage edition, and the image she uploaded has the Faber and Faber (ff) logo on it. I'm changing it back and messaging her.


message 25: by Lobstergirl (new)

Lobstergirl Some of the other editions for the book have wrong covers as well - Penguin editions have Faber and Faber, etc. (I'm just ranting, I'm not going to change them all.)


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