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message 1: by Lorie (last edited Jul 05, 2011 08:33AM) (new)

Lorie | 1324 comments Mod
This is a current case involving the Amish in Western Ky. They are fighting a law to place the orange triangle on their buggies. They say that the reason is the colors go against the sects code of modest.

With so many buggy accidents wouldn't they want to protect themselves? Or are they just taking it as God's will if something happens? They are taking the case to the KY supreme court.

message 2: by Lisa (new)

Lisa conner (ptl44lmc) | 99 comments what color would they like? and wouldnt they like to b safe?

message 3: by Diane U (new)

Diane U (djuseless) | 1411 comments Lorie wrote: "This is a current case involving the Amish in Western Ky. They are fighting a law to place the orange triangle on their buggies. They say that the reason is the colors go against the sects code o..."

In Lancaster, PA they have orange triangles on the backs of their buggies with reflective edges. Hmmm, that's odd!

message 4: by Alyssa (new)

Alyssa (alwaysforgive) | 16 comments they do that so when people drive by they see the outside edge of the triangle it kinda makes it stand out better unlike if it was totally filled in you may only see a blur of orange if you weren't totally paying attention.

message 5: by Rachel (new)

Rachel Brand It sounds dangerous to take the triangle off the buggies, especially considering how many buggy accidents you're always hearing about in news reports. I'm guessing that a lot of the country roads they travel on won't have many street-lights on them, which makes it worse. If they insist on not having orange triangles, hopefully the judge can think of another way to make the buggies visible?

message 6: by Alyssa (new)

Alyssa (alwaysforgive) | 16 comments I agree but remember part of why they do what they do is religious to tell them what they can and can't do in some ways is like telling a christian that they can't wear a cross.

message 7: by Dianne (new)

Dianne Christner | 6 comments Sadly, there was another fatal Amish buggy accident.

message 8: by Rachel (new)

Rachel Brand Dianne, that story is so sad. I can't imagine how the family feel, having their child taken away at such a young age.

message 9: by Kristy (new)

Kristy (riverunbroken) | 250 comments How sad.

message 10: by Camille (new)

Camille (camlovesraptors) | 802 comments Not quite Amish, but about the Mennonites. Very sad, very heartbreaking. Just be warned this article has to do with rape which apparently runs rampant in some colonies.

message 11: by Rachel (last edited Aug 18, 2011 04:00AM) (new)

Rachel Brand Camille, that is absolutely shocking. I never understand what can make men who were brought up in Christian homes turn to this sort of behaviour. In isolated cases you often think it is something psychological that is wrong with them, but this was a whole group of men. So disturbing.

I would advise that those who are quite sensitive might not be comfortable reading this article.

I hope that these poor women get some counselling, but it must be very difficult when they don't speak Spanish. Maybe now that it has gained media coverage some other Mennonite communities might be able to provide some help, perhaps there are Mennonite counsellors out there?

message 12: by Camille (new)

Camille (camlovesraptors) | 802 comments I hope they can get help too. And yeah, the reason I posted the warning with the link is so those who are sensitive can decline to read it.

It is very strange that it is so common in such a small group. I definitely think those men have something wrong with them psychologically. Maybe it's partially genetic since it's recurring in a small group? But who knows, maybe it isn't at all...

message 13: by Barbara (new)

Barbara (goodreadscombarbara_beers) | 1492 comments Mod
Years ago I had heard that incest is prevalent in the Mennonite community. I don't know if it still stands true and I definitely do not condone it.

message 14: by Rachel (new)

Rachel Brand Maybe the psychological issues are caused by the incest? A history of any sort of abuse could then cause similar behaviours to evolve as a result... I don't know much about this so I'm speculating from what I've heard from other news stories. People who have been abused sometimes repeat those actions

I've never heard about incest being prevalent amongst the Mennonites, it's quite disturbing if it is true. But I guess it's not the same for the Amish?

message 15: by Camille (new)

Camille (camlovesraptors) | 802 comments I had actually heard that something similar occurs in the Amish. Not exactly incest because immediately family members do not marry one another, but rather since the community is so small, the gene pool is rather limited so it causes a much higher rate of recessive traits to occur than would otherwise occur in a larger population. It's kind of like accidental inbreeding? I don't mean the terms I use to sound crass, so I apologize if the words I have chosen offend anyone, I just couldn't think of better synonyms.

message 16: by Barbara (new)

Barbara (goodreadscombarbara_beers) | 1492 comments Mod
Incest isn't just marrying family members, it's also "the crime of sexual intercourse or cohabitation between persons within the degrees of consanguinity or affinity wherein marriage is legally forbidden."

My opinion (and I am no authority, but a victim of incest) is that in societies where the man is the authority, it can give a man the feeling that he is above anything and thereby never questioned. I would bet that the Ordnung doesn't have a lot to say about sex.

I do remember reading a novel this year where incest was a side topic, but I can't remember which one... anyone remember which one?

message 17: by Camille (new)

Camille (camlovesraptors) | 802 comments Yeah, definitely incest is more broad than immediate family members. But I meant that what I had heard is the Amish weren't technically engaging in incest at all (under the law) rather over time their gene pool has become so limited that even though you're marrying someone completely unrelated to you in any way, genetically they are still closely enough linked to you to cause a rise in recessive traits showing themselves if that makes sense.

I cannot remember having read a book about incest as a side topic, so probably it isn't one I have read.

message 18: by Rachel (new)

Rachel Brand I know what Camille means about accidental incest. I live in an area where people don't move around a lot and everyone at my school seemed to be cousins, and there was a much higher rate of learning disorders than usual, which I think was linked. This "accidental incest" can result in some sort of medical problems, and I'm guessing maybe psychological.

However, I don't even think inbreeding can be an excuse for the acts mentioned in that article. I don't think there's any way to explain why that happens... I did once read about men with extra chromosomes being more aggressive, particularly in a sexual way. I think they'd done DNA tests in prisons and discovered this once. So maybe there are some reasons behind it.

Barbara, you probably have a good point about men not being questioned in their authority. This is the danger with taking the idea of the "man as the head of the house" to the extreme. I've read some Amish books where if the man said he didn't want to discuss something, his wife wasn't allowed to bring the topic up again. But if you are husband and wife, you should be working in a partnership. If the husband refuses to discuss something then that's not working together. This really bugged me. Sure, I like the idea of men feeling the responsibility to look after and provide for their family, but sometimes some things about men and women's places in the Amish community doesn't sit right with me. I'm sure most of the time it works fine for them, but obviously in these isolated cases, men take their authority to the extreme.

message 19: by Camille (new)

Camille (camlovesraptors) | 802 comments I agree with you Rachel and a patriarchal society taken to an extreme being problematic. But I think pretty much anything taken to an extreme becomes problematic.

I lived in Utah for 4 years which is a very patriarchal society. Many of the women do not have much authority outside what their husband allows or does not allow. It's not all too uncommon to ask about the tenets of the LDS religion and find women who will respond "I don't know, but let me ask my husband, he would know." I agree that the most successful marriages are partnerships where each person adopts certain responsibilities but the pair works together. In some couples the man may want to be the breadwinner and the woman the homemaker, but in other couples this just doesn't work. Personally, I have been questioned by people about why I am going so far in school instead of finding a man to care for me. Someday I may be a stay at home mom if my family has the luxury, but in the event of something awful happening (e.g., death of my husband, divorce, etc.) I want to know I could support my family financially if I needed to go back to work. Also, I have little desire to be only a stay at home mom. It's a beautiful job that many women adore, and I respect the choice to stay at home so much. I just think, for myself, I will go back to work when the kids start school, even if only on a part-time basis. I have worked this hard in school, might as well put it to use. ;)

I also think that eventually we will find some sort of genetic connection between violent sex offenders. I'm quite sure it's not only genetic, nor is that any type of excuse for violent sexual behavior, but I do think there is probably some aspect of it influenced by genetics.

message 20: by Camille (new)

Camille (camlovesraptors) | 802 comments Interesting news report about Amish on Amish crime...

message 21: by Carolyn E (new)

Carolyn E | 239 comments This is a terrible story. I can't imagine why anyone would want to do such a thing. I expect this falls into the category of a hate crime which, I think, can have some pretty serious consequences.

message 22: by Camille (new)

Camille (camlovesraptors) | 802 comments It is very sad, I agree.

message 23: by Rachel (new)

Rachel Brand Kathleen Fuller posted this link on her Facebook page, apparently the Amish who were attacked are reaching out to the police as they understand the extremeness of the situation, verging on terrorism:

message 24: by Carolyn E (new)

Carolyn E | 239 comments Glad to hear it. Thanks for the link.

message 25: by Diane U (new)

Diane U (djuseless) | 1411 comments This is a very bizarre story out of Millersburg, OH:

message 26: by Amber (new)

Amber (bakerswife10) This story ^ just makes me sick. First of all forcing a man to have sex with married women does not cleanse a person!!! Second of all they refer to where the Amish live as a COMPOUND. To me when I think or hear the word compound I think of Waco, TX. Community is a more fitting word. The whole ordeal is sickening. I pray that this Amish community rebounds and the 7 men are punished accordingly.

message 27: by Camille (new)

Camille (camlovesraptors) | 802 comments I agree with you whole-heartedly Amber. Nothing is ever ok about forcing a woman to have sex, and trying to do it under the guise of any religion is even worse. I also agree that most Amish communities are not compounds, and that the FLDS under Warren Jeffs are a compound. Unlike the Amish, FLDS women in compounds never have a choice to leave and not get baptized. Because the Amish can make a choice and are not forced to stay in the religion I believe it is quite unlike a compound. That particular community, maybe, but not Amish communities as whole.

message 28: by Carolyn E (new)

Carolyn E | 239 comments I have just read a brief account in our local newspaper of a 15-year-old girl being shot in the head while driving a buggy in an Amish area of northeast Ohio. Her brother found her dead outside their home in Fredricksburg, Ohio, in Wayne County.

I don't know if this is in any way connected to the previous accounts of attacks on Amish families in Millersburg, Ohio (I am not familar with this area), but the very thought of this makes me ill.

I really hope that somehow it was the result of a dreadful accident and not another deliberate attack on the Amish in that area.

message 29: by Carolyn E (last edited Dec 20, 2011 04:26PM) (new)

Carolyn E | 239 comments I have just read an update on this shooting, in which the sheriff investigating the incident claims it was, in fact, a terrible accident and is not connected in any way to the other attacks on Amish people in that area.

The claim is that the shooter was cleaning his muzzle loader (I know nothing about guns) when it went off accidentally. However, the girl was supposedly a mile away from the shooter when the gun went off.

I'm sorry but I just can't believe that this kind of gun could go off accidentally and shoot someone in the head in a moving buggy a mile away. The whole thing sounds very strange indeed--and very tragic, however it happened.

message 30: by Sarah (new)

Sarah (misscalico) | 128 comments Oh, my... how horrible. Let's all be praying for this poor girl's family.

message 31: by Camille (new)

Camille (camlovesraptors) | 802 comments So very sad. This is definitely why I don't want any guns in any home that I ever live in. They seem so much more dangerous than helpful... :-\

message 32: by Susan (new)

Susan | 78 comments Here is the story from AOL:

FREDERICKSBURG, Ohio — A man cleaning his muzzle-loading rifle shot the gun into the air, accidentally killing a 15-year-old Amish girl driving a horse-drawn buggy more than a mile away, a sheriff said Tuesday.

Rachel Yoder was shot in the head Thursday night while traveling to her home in Wayne County, between Columbus and Akron. She had attended a Christmas party for employees, most of them under 18 years old, at an Amish produce farm and was riding home alone when she was shot, Wayne County sheriff's Capt. Douglas Hunter said.

The horse continued to cart the girl after she was shot, and she fell out of the buggy near her home, Holmes County Sheriff Timothy Zimmerly said. Her brother found her after he saw the horse walking in circles and went to check it. Authorities initially believed she had fallen out of the buggy and hit her head until a hospital test revealed the gunshot wound.

Hunter said his department traced a trail of blood along the road for about three-eighths of a mile into Holmes County in an area of farms and rolling hills.

Zimmerly said the gun-cleaner's family came forward and his neighbors reported hearing a shot at about the time the girl was wounded.

The man had fired the gun in the air about 1.5 miles from where Yoder was shot, Zimmerly said. State investigators were checking the rifle for a ballistics match, he said.

"In all probability, it looks like an accidental shooting," Zimmerly said.

No charges have been filed.

Yoder was born in nearby Mount Eaton and attended the Old Order Amish Church, The (Wooster) Daily Record reported. She is survived by her father, 10 brothers and sisters, 26 nieces and nephews and two grandparents.

Hunter said earlier there was no indication the shooting was related to a rash of beard-cutting attacks against Amish men in a feud over church discipline.

Still, the mystery of the shooting in the wake of the beard-cutting attacks had left the Amish shaken and "on pins and needles," Zimmerly said.

Zimmerly said he informed the Yoder family that the shooting appeared to be accidental.

"Obviously, that makes them feel a lot better than if someone might have been targeting the Amish or (if it was) a random shooting murder," he said.

Gun violence in Amish communities is rare but not unheard of. A man shot 10 schoolgirls, killing five, inside a one-room schoolhouse five years ago in Nickel Mines, Pa. The Amish were praised for their forgiveness after the shooting and reaching out to comfort the gunman's widow.

message 33: by Diane U (new)

Diane U (djuseless) | 1411 comments Here's a news story about the Kentucky Amish:

message 34: by Camille (last edited Mar 04, 2012 11:05PM) (new)

Camille (camlovesraptors) | 802 comments This isn't exactly "breaking news" but I found this article utterly fascinating!

I'm a runner, and in the latest edition of Runner's World there is an article all about Running with the Amish! It is written by a man who has run with the Amish who apparently are very good runners due to physical lifestyle and mental discipline. I would never have imagined they would be allowed to compete in marathons and half-marathons, but apparently many do, especially in the Bird-in-Hand Half Marathon!

Read all about it here:

message 35: by Carolyn E (new)

Carolyn E | 239 comments Camille: That is a very interesting article. Thank you for sharing that.

message 36: by Carolyn E (new)

Carolyn E | 239 comments Just saw an article on MSNBC:
regarding some Amish people who were apparently drinking heavily and driving drunk in a buggy in New York state. Apparently they ran into a police car; no one was injured.

message 37: by Diane U (new)

Diane U (djuseless) | 1411 comments Carolyn wrote: "Just saw an article on MSNBC:
regarding some Amish people who were apparently drinking heavily and driving drunk in a buggy in New York state. Apparently they ran..."

Did anyone else take the time to read some of the comments? Some people are so stupid!!! Ignorance is bliss! LOL!

message 38: by Carolyn E (new)

Carolyn E | 239 comments Diane: I did not stop to read that comments until you mentioned it. Interesting. I could not believe there were 194 comments; I did not read all of them, but I probably will go back and read them later.

message 40: by Susan (new)

Susan | 78 comments Ouch!

message 41: by Carolyn E (new)

Carolyn E | 239 comments My son mentioned a recent article that he saw in The New York Times regarding Monroe L. Beachy, 77, of Sugarcreek, who has been dubbed the Amish Madoff. He has pleaded guilty to defrauding fellow Amish in 29 states out of nearly $17 million.

I tried to access it on The New York Times website, but couldn't. (I think they may now charge to access their website.) However, I did find the article at or

message 42: by Camille (new)

Camille (camlovesraptors) | 802 comments Holy cow!!!

message 43: by Barbara (new)

Barbara (goodreadscombarbara_beers) | 1492 comments Mod
Carolyn wrote: "My son mentioned a recent article that he saw in The New York Times regarding Monroe L. Beachy, 77, of Sugarcreek, who has been dubbed the Amish Madoff. He has pleaded guilty to defrauding fellow A..."

Wow -- it doesn't seem plausible, but I guess it's possible. So sad.

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