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2010/11 Group Reads - Archives > Jane Eyre - Volume the Second - Part 3 - Chapters XXX-XXXIII

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Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (captain_sir_roddy) | 1483 comments Mod
This is the folder for the discussion of Part 3 of the second volume of Charlotte Bronte's Jane Eyre. Enjoy!


message 2: by Kim (new)

Kim (kimmr) | 317 comments Can anymore tell me where in the narrative this section starts from? I have finally got my copy of the text down from the shelf. It's the Penguin Classic edition, in three volumes. Volume 2 ends on the night of the aborted wedding and Volume 3 starts the following morning.

I remember your post from earlier, Lily. Using that as a guide, this section would appear to start from Chapter 4 (?) in Volume 3. However, I didn't think we had got that far in the June 19 to June 25 discussion.


message 3: by MadgeUK (new)

MadgeUK | 5214 comments Chapter 4 in Vol 3 - oh dear the version I am using has the chapters numbered through from 1 - 38! So where are we now?


message 4: by Lily (last edited Jun 27, 2011 11:48AM) (new)

Lily (joy1) | 2632 comments Kim wrote: "this section would appear to start from Chapter 4 (?) in Volume 3. However, I didn't think we had got that far in the June 19 to June 25 discussion. ..."

Looking at the online text and my hard copy (in volumes), you are correct that Chapter XXX(30) corresponds to Chapter 4 of Volume III. I quite agree that we have more to discuss on the previous thread before we move on. We got "stuck" on Chapters 26 and 27 (Vol 2.11 and Vol 3.1).

http://www.enotes.com/jane-eyre-text/...


message 5: by MadgeUK (last edited Jun 30, 2011 02:51AM) (new)

MadgeUK | 5214 comments In Chapter 27 Jane very nearly succumbed to Rochester's dangerous entreaties but Chapter 28 sees her at the crossroad of Whitcross and a crossroads in her life, in her bildungsroman. After a refreshing sleep on the moors she turns away from love and comfort with Rochester, back to God and another life 'of [honest] toil':-

'Whitcross regained, I followed a road which led from the sun, now fervent and high. By no other circumstance had I will to decide my choice. I walked a long time, and when I thought I had nearly done enough, and might conscientiously yield to the fatigue that almost overpowered me--might relax this forced action, and, sitting down on a stone I saw near, submit resistlessly to the apathy that clogged heart and limb--I heard a bell chime--a church bell......I turned in the direction of the sound, and there, amongst the romantic hills, whose changes and aspect I had ceased to note an hour ago, I saw a hamlet and a spire. All the valley at my right hand was full of pasture-fields, and cornfields, and wood; and a glittering stream ran zig-zag through the varied shades of green,
the mellowing grain, the sombre woodland, the clear and sunny lea. Recalled by the rumbling of wheels to the road before me, I saw a heavily-laden waggon labouring up the hill, and not far beyond were two cows and their drover. Human life and human labour were near. I must struggle on: strive to live and bend to toil like the rest.'

Has she turned her back on Rochester? Is her rebellious spirit quelled? At this point in the book Victorian readers worried by Jane trying to break out of the proper mould of a governess would have been hoping so and perhaps in later chapters would have been pleased to read that she had now become a lowly village schoolmistress.


message 6: by MadgeUK (last edited Jun 30, 2011 03:02AM) (new)

MadgeUK | 5214 comments In St John not only is there a contrast between him as a handsome, blonde religious man and the ugly, dark Byronic Rochester but there is a contrast between him and Brocklehurst. St John is described as 'cold as an iceberg' and Brocklehurst as a 'black pillar'. This might also describe the religious beliefs of both men. CB seems bent on giving neither religious men precedence over her hero.

Although initially St John seems kind, and is kind to Jane, he too, like Brocklehurst and Rochester, wants to bend Jane to his will. But unlike Rochester, who shows love, passion and tenderness (whatever his other faults!), St John is trying to dominate Jane without any such tenderness 'He pressed his hand firmer on my head, as if he claimed me'. Where Rochester tempted Jane to throw away social convention and duty, so St John tempts her to throw away her passion, to renounce her nature completely. She finds the decision hard but love and her passionate nature prevail. Where Rochester called out to God to sanction the bigamous marriage, St John calls on God to support him in his own shallow, loveless proposal. God/Providence/Nature previously spoke through the destruction of the chestnut tree, this time Jane hears Rochester's voice...

(BTW I find St John's intentions vis a vis the loveless marriage just as 'abusive' as Rochester's suggestion of fleeing to France etc and potentially just as damaging to Jane had she succumbed.)


message 7: by Alex (new)

Alex (view spoiler)

(I am not sure if Jane makes her decision about St John's proposal in this section, so I'm wrapping that in spoiler tags just in case.)

I was a little thrown by the extraordinary coincidence of Jane ending up at her family's house. That sort of thing happens all the time in Hugo and Dickens, and it's fine there because we understand that that's the world those guys write in; but Jane Eyre's world is more realistic, so this felt jarring and out of place.


message 8: by MadgeUK (new)

MadgeUK | 5214 comments (view spoiler)

I don't think it was so extraordinary that Rivers and Jane turn out to be related - the Yorkshire moors were very under-populated and pretty well everybody was related to everybody in those days. There was a great deal of inter-cousinly marriage and not a little incest. It wasn't then widely known that frequent intermarriage (as with the Royal families of Europe) could lead to health complications, such as the haemophilia of Czar Nicholas' son.


message 9: by Alex (last edited Jun 30, 2011 10:22AM) (new)

Alex Fair enough, but still... I'll grant that it may not have been a miracle - and thank you for pointing out that perspective, because it does make me feel better about JE - but it was certainly unlikely and dramatically convenient.

Overall, this section was a tough one for me. I wanted to get back to Rochester! I understand the use of contrast between him and St John, but this was my least favorite part of the book.


message 10: by MadgeUK (last edited Jun 30, 2011 10:39AM) (new)

MadgeUK | 5214 comments Mine too Alex although I like the little descriptions of the countryside:-

'I touched the heath, it was dry, and yet warm with the beat of the summer day. I looked at the sky; it was pure: a kindly star twinkled just above the chasm ridge. The dew fell, but with propitious softness; no breeze whispered. Nature seemed to me benign and good; I thought she loved me, outcast as I was; and I, who from man could anticipate only mistrust, rejection, insult, clung to her with filial fondness.'

'What a still, hot, perfect day! What a golden desert this spreading moor! Everywhere sunshine. I wished I could live in it and on it. I saw a lizard run over the crag; I saw a bee busy among the sweet bilberries. I would fain at the moment have become bee or lizard, that I might have found fitting nutriment, permanent shelter here.'

'But next day, Want came to me pale and bare. Long after the little birds had left their nests; long after bees had come in the sweet prime of day to gather the heath honey before the dew was dried--
when the long morning shadows were curtailed, and the sun filled earth and sky--I got up, and I looked round me.'

'They loved their sequestered home. I, too, in the grey, small, antique structure, with its low roof, its latticed casements, its mouldering walls, its avenue of aged firs--all grown aslant under the stress of mountain winds; its garden, dark with yew and holly--and where no flowers but of the hardiest species would bloom--found a charm both potent and permanent. They clung to the purple moors behind and around their dwelling--to the hollow vale into which the pebbly bridle-path leading from their gate descended, and which wound between fern-banks first, and then amongst a few of the wildest little pasture-fields that ever bordered a wilderness of heath, or gave sustenance to a flock of grey moorland sheep, with their little mossy-faced lambs:- they clung to this scene, I say, with a perfect enthusiasm of attachment. I could comprehend the feeling, and share both its
strength and truth.'

And so on. All of the Brontes describe the scenery of Yorkshire to perfection - but I am prejudiced:).


message 11: by Alex (new)

Alex Are you from there? I was in England this spring and all I wanted to do was see a freakin' moor, but we were in more wooded areas.

Yeah, I actually really liked that whole part - Jane wandering through the countryside starving. It was when she found her family that my attention started to drift.


message 12: by MadgeUK (last edited Jun 30, 2011 10:50AM) (new)

MadgeUK | 5214 comments Yes, I am a Yorkshirewoman:). Whereabouts were you?


message 13: by Alex (new)

Alex Dorset! And yes, I did read Thomas Hardy while there, and I was very pleased with myself.


message 14: by MadgeUK (last edited Jun 30, 2011 11:37AM) (new)

MadgeUK | 5214 comments Ah - Chris will be jealous! He hopes to get there soon. I gave some good links to Dorset on the Jude the Obscure background thread I think. I will be there for a holiday in August - Sidmouth, on the Dorset/Devon border. Did you see the Jurassic coast area, Lyme Regis and so on?

Were you on the Hampshire side nearer to the New Forest? You could have found moorland in the Blackmore Vale region in the north of the county. This is the fictional Egdon Heath, near Brockhampton but unlike Yorkshire there is very little heather or gorse on it these days due to the over grazing by sheep:-

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ron.stru...

This old painting shows it more as it used to be, with purple heather in bloom:-

http://www.allposters.com/IMAGES/MEPO...


message 15: by Alex (new)

Alex I was around Blackmore Vale, and we did drive by some moor-y looking places, but every time I asked "IS THIS A MOOR?" my friends said no. Maybe I actually have seen one, and they were deceiving me!

And we sadly didn't get down to the coast - especially sad after I learned that this is right where Mary Anning was working. We were there for a wedding and barely had time to scoot over to Stonehenge, where I was not allowed to reenact the climactic scene from Tess.


message 16: by Kristen (new)

Kristen | 140 comments I actually enjoyed this section of JE much more than I did on previous reads. Before, I too was anxious to get back to Rochester. I remember really disliking St. John before, but I found this time that his character was much more complex than I remembered. I find him interesting as an individual struggling against his pride in an attempt to do what he thinks is right. He is overly rigid, but he reminds me of people I've known who over compensate for their weaknesses and "passions". I was also really happy for Jane that she finds family. She seems the most at home to me in this section than anywhere else.


message 17: by Kim (new)

Kim (kimmr) | 317 comments BunWat wrote: "I always found Jane's swoon on her cousin's doorstep to be a bit of a strain on my credulity. I accepted it because, well you have to, otherwise where does the rest of the novel go, but it was a challenging crossing of the willing suspension bridge of disbelief for me...."

Likewise. Particularly given that Jane had to travel quite a distance to do the swooning.

However, I'm a bit of a believer in the whole six degrees of separation thing and have not infrequently encountered people who know people I know (and on one occasion a person related to people I'm related to) in odd situations. No swooning on unknown cousins' doorsteps for me so far, though.


message 18: by Lynnm (last edited Jun 30, 2011 07:06PM) (new)

Lynnm | 3027 comments Kristen wrote: "I actually enjoyed this section of JE much more than I did on previous reads. Before, I too was anxious to get back to Rochester. I remember really disliking St. John before, but I found this time ..."

Kristen - I agree.

I wasn't looking forward to this section of the book because I remembered completely disliking St. John.

But he is far more complex than memory gave him credit for. At least at this point, he seems the opposite of Rochester. Rochester was willing to compromise his own values and dupe an innocent woman for his own happiness. St. John is trying to live an honorable and worthy life. He also is very honest about Rosamund. Physically, he is attracted to her, but he's honest enough to realize that she's not his intellectual or spiritual equal. And he's not going to give into the physical, and sacrifice the intellectual and spiritual.


message 19: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 3582 comments BunWat wrote: "I accepted it because, well you have to, otherwise where does the rest of the novel go, but it was a challenging crossing of the willing suspension bridge of disbelief for me.
"


Agreed.

Though for me it wasn't the only such challenge. The whole idea of Jane living in the house and having no idea for a long period (we aren't told how long, are we?) and having no idea of what was going on also requires a considerable suspension.

But without such willingness on the part of the reader much fiction, and particularly much Victorian fiction, would be unreadable. It's just that sometimes Bronte pushes the envelope a bit further, without any foundation having been laid, than other Victorian authors.


message 20: by Kim (new)

Kim (kimmr) | 317 comments Kristen wrote: "I actually enjoyed this section of JE much more than I did on previous reads. Before, I too was anxious to get back to Rochester. I remember really disliking St. John before, but I found this time ..."

I've also enjoyed this part of the novel more than I have in the past. Rather than see St John just as a foil for Rochester, I've appreciated him for the character that he is. I still don't like him, but I think I've seen more in him than I have in the past.

It seems to me that the passion in JE is spread across Jane herself, Rochester and St John. Jane acknowledges her passionate impulses but has learned to control them in order to stay true to herself. Rochester allows the strength of his passion to have full sway. St John deals with his passion by repressing it and turning it into an abstraction. He calls it love of God but has managed to quench whatever fire was in him and turn it into ice. I find St John very interesting but really rather scary.


message 21: by Lynnm (last edited Jun 30, 2011 07:30PM) (new)

Lynnm | 3027 comments Kim wrote: "Rochester allows the strength of his passion to have full sway. St John deals with his passion by repressing it and turning it into an abstraction. "


I like that...nice point about turning his passion into an "abstraction." Great word choice.

(Although someone who feels that they have a religious calling might not call it an "abstraction.")


message 22: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 3582 comments Kim wrote: "It seems to me that the passion in JE is spread across Jane herself, Rochester and St John. Jane acknowledges her passionate impulses but has learned to control them in order to stay true to herself. Rochester allows the strength of his passion to have full sway. St John deals with his passion by repressing it and turning it into an abstraction. He calls it love of God but has managed to quench whatever fire was in him and turn it into ice."

Very nice.


message 23: by Kim (last edited Jun 30, 2011 07:52PM) (new)

Kim (kimmr) | 317 comments Lynnm wrote: ""(Although someone who feels that they have a religious calling might not call it an "abstraction.")..."

True. I'm just not entirely convinced that St John really loves God. I'm sure he thinks he does, but it seems to me that he has had to (unconsciously) work really hard to convince himself that what he feels is love of God and not something else.


message 24: by Georgie (last edited Jun 30, 2011 10:25PM) (new)

Georgie | 107 comments I think if St. John and Helen Burns had met up they would have fallen madly in love. Perfect couple!
I also find parts of the plot at this point in the book a little far fetched.


message 25: by MadgeUK (last edited Jul 01, 2011 01:28AM) (new)

MadgeUK | 5214 comments Alex wrote: "I was around Blackmore Vale, and we did drive by some moor-y looking places, but every time I asked "IS THIS A MOOR?" my friends said no. Maybe I actually have seen one, and they were deceiving me..."

They are now very small pieces of moorland which they might have seen as scrub. Certainly not as spectacular as in Yorkshire. You were also quite near to Dartmoor and Exmoor in Devon and your friends might have been making that comparison.

Yes, Lyme Regis on the Dorset coast has the famous Cobb, where Mary slipped and fell. I was there last year and walked it myself, fortunately without slipping.

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/393296


message 26: by MadgeUK (last edited Jul 01, 2011 01:38AM) (new)

MadgeUK | 5214 comments Georgie wrote: "I think if St. John and Helen Burns had met up they would have fallen madly in love. Perfect couple!
"


Good point Georgie:).


message 27: by MadgeUK (new)

MadgeUK | 5214 comments Rochester allows the strength of his passion to have full sway. St John deals with his passion by repressing it and turning it into an abstraction. He calls it love of God but has managed to quench whatever fire was in him and turn it into ice.

Great observations Kim.


message 28: by MadgeUK (last edited Jul 01, 2011 01:50AM) (new)

MadgeUK | 5214 comments Everyman wrote: The whole idea of Jane living in the house and having no idea for a long period (we aren't told how long, are we?) and having no idea of what was going on also requires a considerable suspension.

I wonder about this too but these old houses do have remote attic areas which are difficult to penetrate and where 2ft thick stone walls inhibit sound. But I agree that Jane was very unquestioning about the sounds she heard and of Grace Poole's role in the house. We could put it down to her 'keeping her place' except that she didn't do so in other respects.

The 'far fetched' elements of the plot are gothic and I guess CB used them because they were fashionable and appealed to the Victorian reading public. They were a bit like the ubiquitous sex scenes you find in many novels today.


message 29: by MadgeUK (last edited Jul 01, 2011 03:08AM) (new)

MadgeUK | 5214 comments Jane's sense of social class and status is still with her. There is snobbery in her saying 'I must not forget that these coarsely-clad little peasants are of flesh and blood as good as the scions of gentlest genealogy'. She feels 'degraded' as a schoolteacher: 'I doubted I had taken a step which sank instead of raising me in the scale of social existence'. By getting to know her students she begins to overcome her snobbery but there is a sense within the novel that she still yearns for something 'better'. Is that 'better' Rochester or just the better social position life with him would confer, which would also be 'better' than the wife of a missionary in the social, if not the spiritual, sense?

I am reminded here of the comments made by Lily in the previous section about English novels being dominated by class and status, which I see as being as part of a monarchial/autocratic society.


message 30: by Kim (new)

Kim (kimmr) | 317 comments Georgie wrote: "I think if St. John and Helen Burns had met up they would have fallen madly in love. Perfect couple! "

That's funny! Kind of hard to imagine them consummating anything though, don't you think, what with thinking about God and eternal life all the time.


message 31: by Kim (new)

Kim (kimmr) | 317 comments MadgeUK wrote: "Jane's sense of social class and status is still with her. There is snobbery in her saying 'I must not forget that these coarsely-clad little peasants are of flesh and blood as good as the scions o..."

This is where I consider Jane to be at her most annoying. She is very snooty for someone who is lucky to be alive, with a roof over her head and the means of earning a living. I've always had the impression that at this point it was social position she missed, rather than Rochester (although obviously she missed him too). (view spoiler).


message 32: by Georgie (new)

Georgie | 107 comments Kim wrote: "Georgie wrote: "I think if St. John and Helen Burns had met up they would have fallen madly in love. Perfect couple! "

That's funny! Kind of hard to imagine them consummating anything though, don'..."


I'm sure it would be for procreational purposes only!


message 33: by MadgeUK (new)

MadgeUK | 5214 comments Possibly using the rhythm method?


message 34: by MadgeUK (last edited Jul 01, 2011 04:34PM) (new)

MadgeUK | 5214 comments Kim wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "Jane's sense of social class and status is still with her. There is snobbery in her saying 'I must not forget that these coarsely-clad little peasants are of flesh and blood as good..."

Yes, it is an indication too that the position of a schoolteacher, especially in a village, was much 'lower' than that of a governess. Victorians might have expected her to be more suited to this role because of her orphan status and they too would have disapproved of her snobbery but for different reasons. I think they would have expected her to be grateful for the proposal from St John and the anticipation of a righteous missionary life where her former rebellious nature would have been subdued in service of God and St John. But....


message 35: by MadgeUK (new)

MadgeUK | 5214 comments Mrs Gaskell wrote that CB did not like children so perhaps JE reflects this. I agree that it represents a welcome change.


message 36: by MadgeUK (new)

MadgeUK | 5214 comments Yes, indifference is perhaps a better word than dislike. That's an intersting thought BunWat, as to what might she have become otherwise.


message 37: by Lynnm (new)

Lynnm | 3027 comments BunWat wrote: "As I mentioned earlier in regard to Adele that I don't think Jane has much calling for or interest in working with children. Governess or schoolteacher, its just a job that is open to her and enab..."

I read somewhere that studies have shown that women are not as maternal as society has long believed women to be.

Which I think is why when women have control over how many children they will have, they generally have less rather than more.


message 38: by MadgeUK (new)

MadgeUK | 5214 comments That is an interesting point Lynn. It is true that when women in all parts of the world have had the chance to use birth control, they have used it. Not surprising really, considering the discomfort, pain and mess involved! The best form of birth control would be for men to have babies:).


message 39: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 3582 comments BunWat wrote: "I wonder if CB really did not like children, or if her response was more similar to Jane's. I don't get the sense that Jane doesn't like children so much as she is largely indifferent to them. "

That's an interesting perspective which I didn't get. She seemed to be quite fond of Adele, for example, certainly loved Helen, and I thought got along with some of the other students at Lowood.

I do agree that she didn't much care for the students she was teaching while she was staying with the Rivers, but that could have been because they were uninteresting to teach and in many cases not interested in learning from her.

Perhaps it is that she can like particular children as individuals, but not children as a general class.

Oops -- after typing the following part of this comment I realized that it is a spoiler, referring to the very end of the book which we don't get to until the day after tomorrow, so in the interests of spoiler purity I'll make it a spoiler limitation.

(view spoiler)


message 40: by MadgeUK (last edited Jul 01, 2011 06:25PM) (new)

MadgeUK | 5214 comments Everyman wrote: for example, certainly loved Helen, and I thought got along with some of the other students at Lowood.
..."


Helen and the Lowood girls were of the same age as Jane, so not children to her at that time. Unless you mean the Lowood girls she later taught.

(view spoiler)


message 41: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 3582 comments BunWat wrote: "She likes certain individual children, but she isn't drawn to or excited about children qua children."

Which I think is a very common viewpoint. I love my children and grandchildren, but when I get onto the ferry and there are a gaggle of children running around unattended making a racket while I'm trying to read and running into people trying to walk in the aisles, I realize that I really don't care much for them. I suppose some people will look at them and think how wonderful children and childhood are, how free and unfettered and natural, isn't that great, but I'm not one of them.


message 42: by MadgeUK (new)

MadgeUK | 5214 comments Neither am I Everyman. I didn't want children but due to lack of birth control ended up with four, which eventually made me ill:( I am also a rather hands-off grandparent whereas I think you are a very good one.


message 43: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 3582 comments MadgeUK wrote: "Neither am I Everyman. I didn't want children but due to lack of birth control ended up with four, which eventually made me ill:( I am also a rather hands-off grandparent whereas I think you are a very good one."

Well, I do try hard. And they reward me with incredible amounts of love and happiness. They were just all here for our Friday evening family time, just left, and with the house empty and quiet again it's time to get a bit of on-line ruckus going to replace the in-person ruckus that has just gone home!


message 44: by MadgeUK (new)

MadgeUK | 5214 comments LOL. So that's what it is!!!

I get on best with my eldest granddaughter who I helped to 'bring up' whilst my daughter was working and I miss her very much now that she is away at uni. I don't have such close bonds with my other grandchildren. It is a 'reward' to me that my eldest is studying Politics and World Development and frequently consults me about her essays! I've recently learned that there is such a thing now as Marxist Geography......


message 45: by Terri Lynn (new)

Terri Lynn (terrilynnmerritts) I first read this book when I was in about the 5th grade, an advanced student and very mature so I was able to really "get" Jane even then. Women in the 1800's had much fewer choices than we do today and they had little room to maneuver in. Jane was rather spunky right from the beginning.
Notice how Jane was so mistreated at the beginning of the book yet she managed to get the sympathy of the doctor so to get away from where she was and get the chance to go to school as that would give her fresh opportunities to have a better life. Though conditions were poor at the school, Jane not only studied hard and learned her lessons, she took on extra subjects to give herself the chance for a better life.
When the time was right, Jane, who had wisely gotten teaching experience , walked to town and placed an ad for employment and found herself a governess position at Mr.Rochester's. She never sat still saying "Woe is me. I am a weak woman." Jane made things happen for herself.
When she found out that Mr. Rochester was married, she refused to settle for being someone's mistress. She wanted more out of life and she had strong standards. Where a lot of books show the woman as being weak and taking whatever is offered, Jane Eyre is a powerful character and an admirable one. You can respect Jane. Rochester MUST respect Jane. She will accept nothing less.
In the end, things work out in a satisfactory way for Jane. Throughout the book, Jane's attitudes do reflect the time the book was written. My daughter is homeschooled and she admired how Jane managed her life despite the very real limitations on women at the time and this was an excellent lesson on how women have been stifled for centuries.


message 46: by MadgeUK (new)

MadgeUK | 5214 comments Great summary Terri. You sum up exactly why I have liked JE since my schooldays.


message 47: by Terri Lynn (new)

Terri Lynn (terrilynnmerritts) Thank you Madge.


message 48: by Alex (last edited Jul 05, 2011 02:35PM) (new)

Alex Good points about St John. I agree, it's not about God for him - or at least not entirely.

Just to test the whole six degrees of separation thing, I've spent the past weekend passing out on people's doorsteps and then asking if we were related. So far have not found any long-lost relatives.


message 49: by Kristen (new)

Kristen | 140 comments Alex wrote: "Good points about St John. I agree, it's not about God for him - or at least not entirely.

Just to test the whole six degrees of separation thing, I've spent the past weekend passing out on peopl..."


LOL! i'm still waiting for my letter notifying me of the death of a wealthy long-lost uncle. could really use it to pay for my wedding.


message 50: by Kim (last edited Jul 05, 2011 11:28PM) (new)

Kim (kimmr) | 317 comments Alex wrote: "Good points about St John. I agree, it's not about God for him - or at least not entirely.

Just to test the whole six degrees of separation thing, I've spent the past weekend passing out on peopl..."


Well, Alex, I think you have to go on a really long trip and almost die of cold and starvation before fainting and finding cousins actually works.

Kristin wrote: i'm still waiting for my letter notifying me of the death of a wealthy long-lost uncle. could really use it to pay for my wedding.

Kristin - I've been waiting to hear about some long lost-relative leaving me money all of my life. Nothing so far. So unfair!


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