Axis Mundi X discussion

Incident in Tiburon

Comments Showing 1-15 of 15 (15 new)    post a comment »
dateDown arrow    newest »

message 1: by Not Bill (last edited Sep 10, 2008 02:06PM) (new)

Not Bill | 1062 comments Originally posted this in the McCain / Palin thread but wanted to expand the discussion.

This incident caught my eye yesterday as it took place in Tiburon, SF Bay Area, close to where I live and work. The post occurred at Democratic Underground, and begins with a couple walking into a gallery:

The woman actually held a blown-glass conch shell to her ear and commented to her husband that it "must not be real, because I can't hear the ocean". That's when I decided that they were idiots and not worth any expenditure of energy on my part.

They finally walked up with a shallow Moroccan bowl, a beautiful piece.

When the woman reached into her purse to retrieve a credit card, I noticed a "Sarah in '08" pin affixed to her purse. So I asked her where she got it and she said she made it on her computer (I was, until today, unaware that one could do that).

So I said, "That's a joke, right?".

And she replied that Sarah Palin is America's only hope for salvation.

I pointed to the doors and said, "The sidewalk is right out there. Enjoy your stay in Tiburon".

The husband said they would just like to take the bowl, please.

I told him that the bowl could surely find a better home, and was - for the time being - not for sale.

He asked me if I was really going to turn down a $1,200 sale because of a difference in political ideology.

I did.

Not unexpectedly, this post was met with overwhelming, and many times vulgar, approval except for on poster who took a different approach and ended with:

Gee, you never know, if you had gotten to know these people, gotten friendly with them, and then gently shown them the error of their ways, you might just have gotten both a sale and a vote. Instead you've sent away a couple of people with a real nasty aftertaste about Dems and liberals, and the rest of us will have to work extra hard to correct your f*ck up. Good job, NOT.

Said gallery owner replied:
You are so f*****g right. I am an asshole....
an asshole who prefers that the treasures that I have not end up in the houses of my enemy.
For the first time in my long stay here, I am asking that you put me on your "Ignore" list, so you don't have to worry your Beautiful Mind with any of my business.
Because it is MY F*****G BUSINESS, don't you see?

Enemy? This does not sound like change or even remotely like hope. To all those who believe that republicans only vote the party line because afterall, no thinking rational person would ever vote for anyone but Obama, otherwise they're just knuckle dragging republibots. To all those who continue to peddle the rediculous meme that Obama is a closet muslim or somehow not a citizen of the US. To all those who only see the other side as wantng nothing more than to destroy this nation for some nebulous concept of personal gain:

We are your fellow citizens and countrymen. We are your brothers, fathers, mothers, sisters, cousins, uncles, aunts, grandparents. We're your boss, your employee, your customer, your sales rep, your accountant, your secretary, that guy or woman or who sits in the cubicle beside you or across the aisle from you. We're the people in the cars driving on the highway around you to and from work or sitting in that same stop n' go traffic with you.

We're your kids, your kid's teachers, your gardener, your golf buddy, your doctor, your lawyer, the girl or guy across the counter selling you that soda and bag of chips. We're the soldier fighting in Iraq, the seaman on duty on a carrier in the Persian Gulf, the weekend warrior in the National Guard, the security guard at the shopping mall, the policeman cruising through your neighborhood keeping you safe.

We are all around you and we are everywhere in all walks of life and in all professions. We do not wear our politics on our sleeve and will not wear any symbol we do not desire to. We carry guns, support gun control, choose life, or think that a woman's body and soul are hers to do with what she will. We support the President and our troops and we believe that the President is a few donuts short of a baker's dozen and that the war is a colossal mistake and a huge waste of money. We are rich, we are poor, and we are middle class, and everything else in between.

We spend money in stores where we see something we like to buy and we don't worry about what that shopkeeper's politics might be. We talk with our friends and family and we let them know what we think about situations and other people. We drink, we smoke, we abstain, we laugh, we cry, and we do all the things that you do and are everything that you could ever imagine being.

We are your countrymen and fellow citizens.

Don't make us your enemy because, like I pointed out above, we are everywhere and we have guns. You wouldn't like the result.

message 2: by Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You. (new)

Charissa (dakinigrl) | 3620 comments Mod
thanks NB... it's definitely food for thought. I don't know if I would go so far as to say "we have guns" and "you wouldn't like the result". But I am also tired of extreme partisanship. If people cling to their own ideology and demonize the people at the other side of the fence, we'll wind up in another civil war. who knows what form it will take, but it won't be pretty I'm sure.

I am adamant about key issues in my politics, usually they are personal, in that they directly affect my life and the lives of those I love. and not in some theoretical, abstract manner. but there are few things I would take up arms against my countrymen for. I agree that refusing to sell someone a bowl because they are going to vote for your opponent is infantile and does nothing but create animosity.

That kind of thing happens on both sides of the aisle, and it's nothing short of ugly.

message 3: by Cyril (new)

Cyril That must have been some bowl.

message 4: by Not Bill (last edited Sep 10, 2008 11:45PM) (new)

Not Bill | 1062 comments DakChar - "we are everywhere, and we have guns" is specifically meant to highlight the callous regard that many are handling their political disagreements. At some point, if you tell someone that you hate them and that they are the enemy often enough, it's logical to assume they will take you at your word. Articles like this do not help:

I appreciate your approach to politics in recognizing how it affects your life and the lives of those you hold dear. My take is that when voting for POTUS, we look for someone who can best lead the entire nation, not someone who can best serve our individual needs. That would fall to our personal representatives in congress. Our rep is Lynn Woolsey, uber liberal, yet that has not stopped me from having ongoing communications with her over these past few years. We agree to disagree on most subjects and overall it's been a positive exchange. The point I'm hopoing to make is that there is a line that we meet where our personal lives do in fact give way to the good of the nation. At some point we all serve. Determining that can be difficult.

message 5: by Lori (new)

Lori Cyril! *snort* That's what I was thinking too!

So the woman was an idiot because she didn't hear the ocean in the conch shell? He certainly makes some snap judgments doesn't he! Altho if I saw someone with a Palin pin, I'm quite I wouldn't take an instantaneous liking to her. Still, no need to be a complete self-righteous fool about it. After all, she had the taste to see beauty in the bowl, so that's a common thread between them. Probably just what he sneers to his friends about "the other side," right? That all the Reps are sanctimonious self-righteous fools.

message 6: by Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You. (new)

Charissa (dakinigrl) | 3620 comments Mod
NB... we will have to agree to disagree about what constitutes "the good of the country". I personally think that another cycle of being lead by a religious fundamentalist is deeply and powerfully AGAINST the good of the country. It frightens me that so many in this country flock to rally behind a Creationist. I find it personally appalling that over half the people polled in this country subscribe to what basically amounts to a "flat earth" belief system. I find it horrifying to think that over half the people living in this country, if they had their way, would impose laws upon the rest of us which strip basic human rights away from those who do not conform with their religious dogma.

If you are standing on my womb as your platform, you may as well start handing out burkas. It's the same mind set in a different dress. And I'm not going to play those reindeer games. No way. No how.

message 7: by Rusty (new)

Rusty (rustyshackleford) Burkas? Screw burkas! They're way too revealing - with all that wrist and face showing, they make women look like tramps.

message 8: by Ruth (new)

Ruth Go, Charissa!

message 9: by Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You. (new)

Charissa (dakinigrl) | 3620 comments Mod
Rusty... yer funny.

message 10: by Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You. (new)

Charissa (dakinigrl) | 3620 comments Mod
kind of like a ham costume.

message 11: by Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You. (new)

Charissa (dakinigrl) | 3620 comments Mod
I don't any team uses a ham as their mascot.

message 12: by Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You. (new)

Charissa (dakinigrl) | 3620 comments Mod
The Detroit Smoked Pork Bastards

message 13: by Not Bill (new)

Not Bill | 1062 comments Actually DakChar, I don't see a whole lot to disagree with in your #7. I'm all for getting the govt to butt out of our lives. The more the better.

message 14: by Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You. (new)

Charissa (dakinigrl) | 3620 comments Mod
well bake me a pizza and shut my mouth with it.

: )

message 15: by Xysea (last edited Sep 12, 2008 08:22AM) (new)

Xysea  (xysea) NB,

I feel your pain. I have just had a lovely exchange off of a liberal website with a conservative who was curious about what liberals talk about. lol

Anyway, he's a nice guy. But he had some trouble there; I understand. It's probably the same type of trouble I'd have posting on Free Republic, if you get my drift.

Here's some of our correspondence (addresses redacted):

At 08:54 AM 9/11/2008, you wrote:

Hi CJ,

I am not familiar with anyone being banned for being conservative on (website name), though I will say that they tend to have a hard time and are called trolls, etc. I suspect its something similar to when a liberal shows up on Free Republic or a conservative site.

One of the things that depresses me about the United States right now is the divisiveness. We need all voices, all points of view, to make reasoned, and fair, decisions as a country. Reading some some the stories people have posted, and of course added to my own experiences, has made me wonder if we're not going too far down the road to come back. One woman wrote that she went to a McCain rally only to have another woman say, "My sister is a liberal and I told her to leave the country. We don't need liberals here." Or how about the guy who said a man he knew, and socialized with, put up a sign saying 'Feed the maggots, kill a liberal.' They had never discussed politics before, but he said his friend sounded so 'reasonable' before, how could he think this now?

We may disagree on approaches to things, but what I would like any conservative to understand about liberals is that they want the same things for their kids, that conservatives want for theirs; a secure future, a good education, the best home they can provide. We love our children, our families, our friends, same as you.

Sometimes, when I talk with conservatives, I seriously think they do not believe or understand that. And when I talk with liberals, they speak as if conservatives do not, either.

I think that must stop, for us to find common ground. And with the state of the world, we need to find common ground. United we stand, divided we fall is something I live by.

I'm happy to continue our debate here, if you can't on (website name). I enjoy speaking with you, as well.

Best wishes,

His reply:

Hello Xysea,

Well, It's been a day and a half since I wrote to (website owner) about why I can't comment.

Actually, though I like to debate, it's generally when I'm playing poker online when politics creeps into things. I've never really had time to debate. I had a bad run on poker the last two weeks so I'm taking a break. Now that's something I do not agree with the Republicans about. They passed that bill a couple of years ago concerning online gaming. I say, regulate and tax it. I know that the lotto and slots are for the masses who just are working on hope, but Poker there is a lot of skill. I do know that the lotto takes advantage of poor people who get their government checks and head for the 7-11.

We can discuss how conservatives and liberals treat each other. I've had my Rush Limbaugh sticker scratched off my car 10 years ago. I live in a Democratic district. The last election cycle I put up about 7 signs for various offices, had to put them back up about 5 time in a month because somebody kept driving over them. I was dumb...I'll put them on fences this time. None of my guys won. I didn't think they would, but who knows. One time there was some Democrat signs down...I put them back up.

I also found out that the guy who started (website name) was in the military for three years like me, but enlisted 7 years later. He was a 13P, I was a 13B (artillery). He was in Germany, so was I. He was at Ft. Sill, so was I. It's funny how you can do similar things and come out on opposite ends of the political spectrum. I think I know what happened to him many others, he was radicalized in college...I went to community collage, then to AZ State, where I dropped out. My first taste of politics was in the Army when there was two positions open for E-3, which is the uniform that (website owner) is wearing on the (website name) About me page. I was one of three soldiers up for E-3. Two white guys were the most qualified, me being one of them. We got the promotion. Many of the blacks in the unit were upset as the black guy didn't get promoted. I couldn't understand what the fuss was about...figured it out later...opened my eyes a lot. I was caught in a quota fight. I later went to Ft. Hood Texas, was transferred to a bookeeping unit at headquarters. Found out that the powers that be were promoting under qualified blacks because blacks represented a certain percentage of the military, etc. We were, may still be, watering down our military so that we can be "correct". That also happens in our fire departments and police departments.....that's our safety we're talking about. I've always wondered how many of our first responders have been killed because a 130 lb woman couldn't pull her 220 pound partner out of the line of fire. That's one of the reason's I oppose quotas and affirmative action...and would like to discuss issues like that on KOS. When I emailed KOS I thanked him for his service to our country.

Anyway, I hear that there are more vile websites like (website name) than the right wing ones, but I don't go to any sites left or right. I went on (website name) because I was hearing about it a lot on Oreilly. I've done more typing on political issues with you and the one other comment that was taken down than I have in years. If they kicked me off, well, I'm not going to bother making a new user ID as they'll probably kick me off again. I'm just a normal guy, what would they fear in me? I'm hoping it was just a glitch in the system.

All I wanted to do was debate the issues of the day with civil people like you.

I'm doing some undercover work at the middle school next week. After I go target shooting with my kids on Tuesday morning I'm going to sit in my daughter's classes the rest of the day. I do that 3-4 times a year to check up on things, etc. I also have a spy who reports to me about what my daughter is up to. I told her that I have a spy :), I don't expect anything from her, but she has been know to pass notes in class in the past. Anyway, I am going to count the minutes in each class to see how much class time is lost messing with kids who disrupt the classes. I'm going to report that to the PTA later in the afternoon. Because of all the laws out there, public school teachers and administrators do not discipline like they should because of the fear of lawsuits, etc. I know that in private schools some of the bad kids get tossed out, but in the public schools they have to get chance after chance after chance....that affects the good kid's education, like your daughter. That's one of the many reasons that public schools get knocked.



So, it's possible, even if you don't agree to have a civil conversation that avoids words like 'traitor' or 'kool aid drinker' etc.

I am hoping CJ and I can continue to find middle ground, you know? Because that's where the future of our country lies.

back to top