Bodice Ripper Readers Anonymous discussion
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What makes a book a Bodice Ripper?
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To me, a lot of what can be called bodice rippers tend to be low on the historical content, heavy on the sexual encounters, the heroine/hero usually fictional, and they tend to be a bit too perfect for the story. Bertrice Small, Jennifer Wilde, Rosemary Rodgers, and Kathleen Woodiwess are perfect examples of BR's.Who DOES NOT write BR's: Elizabeth Chadwick, Sharon Kay Penman, Dorothy Dunnett, Karleen Koen. They are really what HF should be.
Thanks, Rebecca. I was a little surprised by your answer-- you made me rethink some ideas that I had. I certainly agree that Woodiwiss was a bit light on laying out the historical details of the eras of her stories (though most of her books are on my keepers list). I'm not familiar enough with Rogers or Wilde to give an opinion, so you are probably right there as well.Small, on the other hand, did a really good job with her historical research most of the time (though there are definite exceptions). Skye O'Malley, for example, was based on Grace O'Malley, an actual female pirate from that period (Grace is even mentioned as a relation of Skye's). Also, in the Kadin, most of Small's characters were real, historical people. Given the nature of histories from that place and time, Small had a lot of latitude to fill in details, and she definitely took liberties, but I thought she did a pretty good job overall.
In the Medieval section of the HR group, I was actually defending some of the BR elements of those books by pointing out that they portray historic perspectives of men and women more accurately than some other books. Read about William the Conqueror's "courtship" of his wife Matilda, for example, or the stories of Nest Ferch Rhys and Christina of Markyate. Men had absolute power over women back then. They dominated women financially, socially, and sexually, and books that try to overwrite that with our modern, PC sensibilities and mores do an injustice to the historical facts.
I agree with you about the emphasis on heavy breathing, though. The books I classify as BR's definitely use sex scenes to illustrate the conflict between the male and female protagonists, sometimes to the point of crossing into erotica. Small, especially, lays it on pretty thick.
You're very welcome. Early Bertrice Small is good with the history and all, but her later novels do miss the mark as far as good writing goes. For me, BRs are the lighter, fluffier side of historical fiction.
Rebecca wrote: "You're very welcome. Early Bertrice Small is good with the history and all, but her later novels do miss the mark as far as good writing goes. For me, BRs are the lighter, fluffier side of historic..."I'll give you that. Small rates as a favorite because of Skye O'Malley, but her later stuff, to me, is more erotica than HR. She actually lost me after the Skye's Legacy series.
Speaking of Grace O'Malley, have you read Morgan Llewelyn's Grania? Fairly good as far as HF goes, and actually sticks with Grace O'Malley.
Rebecca wrote: "Speaking of Grace O'Malley, have you read Morgan Llewelyn's Grania? Fairly good as far as HF goes, and actually sticks with Grace O'Malley."I'll have to read it. Grace was a fascinating woman. I did a little digging on her, and one story that made me laugh was her meeting Elizabeth I. Evidently Elizabeth gave her a handkerchief (a favor, meant to be an act of royal grace, esp. given that Grace was on somewhat shaky ground due to her pirating activities). Grace threw the court in an uproar by blowing her nose in the thing and tossing it in the fireplace! May be she didn't entirely understand the nature of the gift, or (more dangerously), she did, and she wanted to express her opinion. LOL.
Oh yes, I've heard that story. One claims that O'Malley threw it away because it was soiled and therefore of no use anymore. I think you will like the Llewelyn book.
I've been reading plenty of Rosemary Rogers lately, and while sex does play a role in the tension/antagonism between the H and h, the main bone the h has to pick is power - being hauled around from place to place, having everyday decisions taken away from her, losing any bit of autonomy she's been able to scrape at, etc. In the case of Steve Morgan & Ginny Brandon, they have a dysfunctional, co-dependent relationship with loads of resentment on both sides. Makes for fun reading. :)
I've seen Harlequins referred to as bodice rippers. Oh please! It's a catch-all phrase, and leaves everybody confused. I'd love for it to be applied correctly to books that actually ARE BRs, but that's a pipe dream.
I've seen Harlequins referred to as bodice rippers. Oh please! It's a catch-all phrase, and leaves everybody confused. I'd love for it to be applied correctly to books that actually ARE BRs, but that's a pipe dream.
It's easy to see how people get confused. I mean, the phrase bodice-ripper can apply to a lot of books, who decided it was only epic historicals that got to be in the genre?And as for Johanna Lindsey writing BRs, well I've read almost all of her books and I don't really think they qualify. They're much shorter, with not nearly enough "globe-trotting." They're like BRs for kiddies. LOL.
Some authors just don't want to spend the time, I guess.
Evelyn wrote: "They're like BRs for kiddies. LOL."
A good description of JL's books. :)
A good description of JL's books. :)
I never said I didn't like JL, she's good for an easy read when the BRs ar just too hard. Would paranormals qualify?
Crimson Kiss
Crimson Night
Of the JL's I've read, a few of them could be classified as mild BR (but most not)... some of her older ones have themes like rape/forced seduction, but her endings always wrap up so nice and sweet that you could tie a bow on it. I've read some great contemporaries and paranormals with dark, obsessive, craveman, alpha-hole type of heros... but none that cross the line into BR. - But if there's one out there, I want to know! :D
The only "contemporaries" I know of that even come close to bodice rippers are the older Harlequin Presents, particularly those by Charlotte Lamb, Robyn Donald or Sally Wentworth, published in the mid 70's to mid 80's. You have your exotic locales and pyscho-jealous heroes who seduce, kidnap, blackmail, betray or rape. But most prominent was the male-female power play. I actually preferred when the hero was enigmatic and you never truly knew what was on his mind. Today, the guys are as emotional as the women and the stories lack the bite they had.
I guess one could try to make the case for Paranormals or BDSMs as modern bodice rippers, but I don't agree. If there's magic or world-building or clubs with safe words and rules of play, it's not the same.
In Crimson Kiss, Simon is pretty darn creepy. Psychopathic and borderline insane. Also my favorite hero so far. :D
♥ Cheshire Catt ♠ wrote: "Everyone's definition is going to vary - I hate Lindsey and agree that I don't care for her books but they are on the fringes of un-pc and usually get classed with BRs. I consider them very mild e..." Everybody's hatin' on my girl Johanna...(sniff, sniff, snob). :-p
Lindsey is somewhat an acquired taste, but I love her or at least her earlier works; she will always have a fondness in my heart as one of my firsts. Her writing style is simplistic and rambling, but when her couples clicked, for me it was magic. I would class her in that Laurie McBain-Shirlee Busbee mold where bodice rippers were morphing into "straight" historical romance.
But some JHs would definitely be bodice rippers as they heavily feature kidnap and rape:
Captive Bride
Fires of Winter
A Pirate's Love
Paradise Wild
So Speaks the Heart
Heart of Thunder
Secret Fire (Ok, in this one the heroine is plied with Spanish fly, but it's still "rape")
♥ Cheshire Catt ♠ wrote: "Okay lets see - what is a BR -What you said. Bodice rippers can be heavy or light on history; the heroine can be virginal and eventually have only one lover, or she can be experienced and know many men. However the story has to span at least a few months and various locales; the hero can't be a pony-tailed sensitive type, he knows what he wants and doesn't ask permission, and he might never say sorry. There absolutely has to be a power-play of male and female wills fighting for control. (But we know who wins out, right?)
Wendy, Lady Evelyn Quince wrote: "The only "contemporaries" I know of that even come close to bodice rippers are the older Harlequin Presents, particularly those by Charlotte Lamb, Robyn Donald or Sally Wentworth"
Margaret Rome, too. The two I've read have had spanking and near-rape and dominating heroes. Love her stuff. :D
Margaret Rome, too. The two I've read have had spanking and near-rape and dominating heroes. Love her stuff. :D
I just finished Prisoner of My Desire by JL, and Surrender My Love. I'd classify both as BR's, and maybe I'm a lightweight, but the rape scenes in POMD were pretty strong, I thought. I may not be a true BR fan, though. I don't mind stories where the heroine is abused, mistreated, even raped if it's essential to the story and not just thrown in for salacious effect, but I want her to have enough backbone that, if it happens to her, she fights back, and I want her to fight to win. I HATE it when heroines just passively accept bad treatment, or worse, turn into a puddle of goo and like it. And if it's the "hero" who did it, I want to see him wracked with guilt before she forgives him. I really dislike doormat heroines and a$$hat heroes. I may still rate books like that highly, though, if the book haunts me later in a good way. If my mind stays in the story for days after, it'll get a good rating even if i hated the way the story turned out.
Soooo, are most BR's relics from the 70's and 80's, or are there more current writers who are still churning them out? Given that the elements of BR's are so politically incorrect, I'm wondering if mainstream publishers still touch them.
Elle wrote: "Soooo, are most BR's relics from the 70's and 80's, or are there more current writers who are still churning them out? Given that the elements of BR's are so politically incorrect, I'm wondering i..."While the bodice ripper is mostly relegated to the 70's and 80's, you do see a few controversial historicals pop up now and then that might qualify. Anne Stuart's, perhaps.
The one current bodice ripper I've read was Anna Campbell's Claiming the Courtesan, but I disliked it because the hero was way too much of a cry-baby and there were chapters dedicated to inner-monologue and emotional torment. I think what a bodice ripper needs a healthy dose of action and a strong hero which that book lacked.
Elle wrote: "I just finished Prisoner of My Desire by JL, and Surrender My Love. I'd classify both as BR's, and maybe I'm a lightweight, but the rape scenes in POMD were pretty strong, I thought. I may not be a..."You're right, those would be counted as well. And it's not about being a true bodice ripper fan, or a lightweight--this genre ranges from mildy spicy to 5 alarm fire in terms of angst and sex.
But as you said, the heroine should fight to win, whatever situation she's in and whoever does it to her. Bad things happen, she gets up and goes on with her life valiantly, not remaining a helpless victim. The story should stay with you because it was epic in scope.
I loved the Rohan series. I think she does a brilliant job of creating truly damaged heroes, who do some awful things, convincing even themselves they've lost their humanity, and yet, by the end, I actually like it that they end up with the heroines because she manages to persuade me that they're not just abusive thugs who don't deserve the girl. I agree about Claiming the Courtesan (Campbell actually reminded me a bit of Stuart here, but the protag was much more self-indulgent.) I still liked the book but wasn't as enamored of the "love" story as I was with the Rohan books.
Mod
I think readers love for BR elements has transitioned a bit to paranormal. If the hero is a paranormal creature or there is magic or some other weird stuff going on then its OK for him to be a crazy possessive jealous a-hole. PNR is now the PC BR in a lot of ways, but not all... I have yet to read a PNR that had the epic-ness of my favorite BR's.
Another thought I had while reading this thread... I don't think that it needs to be erotic or super graphic sex scenes to be a BR. For me its all in the power play and struggle between the H/h. For example The Sheik does not have a single sex scene on page (it all happens between chapters - the book was written in 1918) but it counts as a BR in my mind for sure!
There are lots of things I think of when I think of BR's - epic plot, rich historical detail, large cast of characters, covers a large portion of heroines lifetime, travel from place to place etc - but the only one I can think of that if it were missing would make the book not a BR in my mind would be the power play between H/h.
Jennefer wrote: "I think readers love for BR elements has transitioned a bit to paranormal. If the hero is a paranormal creature or there is magic or some other weird stuff going on then its OK for him to be a crazy possessive jealous a-hole. PNR is now the PC BR in a lot of ways, but not all... I have yet to read a PNR that had the epic-ness of my favorite BR's." Meh, that might be why I don't see it in more current books very much. I really can't get into paranormals, usually. I like almost everything by Brenda Joyce, for example, (and she does have a few BR's, esp. The Conqueror, which is an all-time favorite because it's also about one of my favorite periods in history and she did her research pretty well). But I picked up a couple of her paranormals because they complete the DeWarrenne series, and just couldn't really enjoy them. It's strange, because I actually LIKE fantasy, but somehow when it gets mixed up with romance, I end up rolling my eyes or yawning.
And yes, I agree, the thing that makes BR's work for me is the power struggle between the characters. I like seeing stories where the heroine endures and overcomes really difficult situations.
♥ Cheshire Catt ♠ wrote: "I love the few Anne Stuart books I've read but even in her Rohan series - we are told about how evil and bad the hero is - but - he never actually does anything that wicked."
Which is why that 1 1/8ths of the series I read bored me to tears! I'd rather have the sex be fill-in-the-blanks instead of the hero's characterization! But no, we got 28 pages of sex in one scene. Blech.
I think probably for the rest of my reading life, Steve & Ginny are going to be the ultimate BR couple. She's repeatedly abandoned and left to her own devices, even kills when she has to, and fights against the double standard that others lay on her because she scraps away to survive through whatever means necessary. Steve does the same but it's a-ok in his and others' opinions. But Ginny is supposed to be a paragon no matter what is thrown her way, and when she falls short she gets blackballed. Even though Ginny is sometimes her own worst enemy, she never says die. Definitely a strong feminist streak in RR's stuff.
Which is why that 1 1/8ths of the series I read bored me to tears! I'd rather have the sex be fill-in-the-blanks instead of the hero's characterization! But no, we got 28 pages of sex in one scene. Blech.
I think probably for the rest of my reading life, Steve & Ginny are going to be the ultimate BR couple. She's repeatedly abandoned and left to her own devices, even kills when she has to, and fights against the double standard that others lay on her because she scraps away to survive through whatever means necessary. Steve does the same but it's a-ok in his and others' opinions. But Ginny is supposed to be a paragon no matter what is thrown her way, and when she falls short she gets blackballed. Even though Ginny is sometimes her own worst enemy, she never says die. Definitely a strong feminist streak in RR's stuff.
I read Wicked Loving Lies by Rogers awhile ago (I was sure I'd read something of hers but couldn't find it on my list. Turns out it was on one of the first lists I kept). Anyway, as I recall, I thought the story was good, but there was something about Rogers' writing style that bothered me so much that it seemed to take forever to read the book. I shied away from other books of hers. Is it worth trying again?
♥ Cheshire Catt ♠ wrote: "I love the few Anne Stuart books I've read but even in her Rohan series - we are told about how evil and bad the hero is - but - he never actually does anything that wicked. He doesn't drug her or rape her - instead its just a long seduction that isn't all that forced. "Did you read Breathless? I don't remember whether it crossed into actual rape, but the guy did some really vile things - to the point where I actually would have preferred seeing them split at the end. Or at the very least I wanted to see him MUCH more remorseful before she took him back.
Maybe there was no force, but the whole thing at the end with the Heavenly Host was pretty hairy, IMO. I also found the whole relationship in Ruthless very intense and riveting. His utter ruthlessness in the seduction of an innocent was pretty wild.Also, I guess I consider blackmailing a woman into "consent" by offering her only truly awful alternatives to be a form of force.
Elle wrote: "Also, I guess I consider blackmailing a woman into "consent" by offering her only truly awful alternatives to be a form of force."It's all coercion as far as I'm concerned. LOL.
This books sounds pretty good, but it's the 3rd in the series so I'm reluctant to pick it up and read it, and I'm not too wild about the others in the series. Is it one of those series where you can just pick it up in the middle without having to know all the backstory in the previous books?
♥ Cheshire Catt ♠ wrote: "Evelyn - Yes you can read them out of order - the people in each book are related to each other but the stories are stand alone. Elle - I guess I'm jaded! :) What others find shocking I go yea..."
Hey, Chesh! You're a writer? Do you have a publisher for your wild material, or have you gone indie?
The Pagan definitely sounds too rough for me. I read every one of Bertrice Small's romances (didn't try her erotica) and some of those ventured too far into the kink for me. I'm probably BR-curious rather than BR-hardcore.
L
So I'm about to finish Heather Graham's Viking series. Have you read them? What did you think?
I can't remember who made the comment about mixing BR with fantasy (or SF) and somehow, the published stuff is awful. It's so trite, and silly that I can't get into it at all. Which is a pity, as there is tremendous potential there.
I haven't read any of hers, but have a few languishing in the attic. Thanks for the rec.
Elle wrote: "So I'm about to finish Heather Graham's Viking series. Have you read them? What did you think?"I read them a while ago, so my memory's not great. The plots for all three were similar, about politically arranged marriages with. I liked the last two, especially
. But I didn't wasn't crazy about
. I know it's considered a classic Viking romance, but it had my most hated trope: the hero madly in love with his dead wife. I think the book started out with Olaf and his wife's love's story and her death. He was in mourning for her for a long time and the rest of the book couldn't make up for my dislike of that. I don't mind other women, as long as they're alive.
That one sounds freaking wild! On to the wishlist it goes.
Wendy, Lady Evelyn Quince wrote: "Elle wrote: "So I'm about to finish Heather Graham's Viking series. Have you read them? What did you think?"I read them a while ago, so my memory's not great. The plots for all three were simil..."
I was kind of the reverse. I allowed for OLaf's grief as a reason for some of his jerkish behavior, while the heroes in the other two didn't have as good an excuse. I think the guy in the second had a dead love too but he wasn't pining.
♥ Cheshire Catt ♠ wrote: "Elle - trying but I have no idea if it will ever happen! :) Believe me if it ever happens, everyone will hear about it with me doing the happy dance all over the place until people say - would yo..."Have you discovered www.critiquecircle.com? I have a friend who is a published writer, who highly recommends it. i keep meaning to join.
Bodice Ripper Readers Anonymous
Books mentioned in this topic
The Viking's Woman (other topics)Golden Surrender (other topics)
The Sheik (other topics)
Claiming the Courtesan (other topics)
Crimson Night (other topics)
More...
So what do you think makes the distinction? Is it the actual ripping of bodices (suggesting some element of force in the sexual encounter)? Or is it more about the power struggle between the hero and heroine, that sometimes manifests itself in the bedroom? What makes a book NOT a bodice ripper?