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Lackless Family Theories *Spoilers*
Probably a good idea to break them apart... makes it easier to discuss them without stuff getting lost in other discussions.I like the theory someone else had about Lackless' sister that ran off with the Edema Ruh being Kvothe's mother. I think there are a lot of signs that fit this.
As for something else Lackless related - I think the box that she has, is the box with the name of the moon. I know, seems silly, but there is truth to all stories as we've been told many times - I think that little bit about the box in Jax's story was a piece of truth. I also have to wonder if it's not really a box, but another version of the doors.
you said younger. im sticking with denna being the lackless sister
Younger/older... I had a 50/50 chance of being wrong. :D
I've posted this elsewhere, but i think that kvothe's mom is undeniably the lackless sister that ran away with the ruh troupe. There is too much evidence for it not to be the case.1) kvothe's mother is noble
2) kvothe's mother seems to be unreasonably irritated by him singing the song about lady lackless
3) the last line of the lady lackless song says "lackless likes her riddle raveling"... There is much emphasis in book two about the word ravel being a slur about the ruh. I think this is the line that hurt kvothe's mother because it is about her. She even goes on to say "you can make it up to me and lady lackless by bringing some nettle for the stew" or something of the sort.
4) in book two it is said multiple times that there was a lackless scandal in which the heir ran away with a ruh troupe. Both kvothe's parents joke about arliden stealing his mother away.
5) it is stated that the stolen sister's name was "netalia". Kvothe tells Sim and Will his father wrote a song about his mother:
Dark Laurian, Arliden's wife,
Has a face like a blade of a knife
Has a voice like a prickledown burr
But can tally a sum like a moneylender.
My sweet Tally cannot cook.
But she keeps a tidy ledger-book
For all her faults I do confess
It's worth my life
To make my wife
Not tally a lot less...
The song implies that he calls his wife Tally because she's good with numbers, but the much more likely reason is because Tally is short for Netalia...
Furthermore, the last three lines, when spoken aloud sound like "It's worth my life to make my wife Netalia Lockless". It seems likely that the real reason Kvothe's mother made his father sleep under the wagon after he made that song is not because it had a bad meter as Kvothe claims but because it gave away her identity as Netalia Lockless.
I am 100% convinced that that is the case. But i'd we willing to reconsider if you can show me evidence that it is denna...
One thing though, JK, i think it is more likely that meluan is the younger sister, not netalia, given that kvothe is near 17 around the time that he meets meluan.
She would have to be the older sister if she was originally the heir. I just forgot that when originally making my post.
:-D i think PR is very clever with his wording! It's easy to miss things and misconstrue things!
Alekhia wrote: "I've posted this elsewhere, but i think that kvothe's mom is undeniably the lackless sister that ran away with the ruh troupe. There is too much evidence for it not to be the case.1) kvothe's mo..."
Found it! WMF pg 498
"I'd started a second bottle of wine by the time I read that young Netalia Lockless had run away with a troupe of traveling performers. Her parents had disowned her, of course, leaving Melaun the only heir to the lackless lands."
No where does it say elder sister. If anything we can take "young" and tie it with Denna.
Plus Kvothe says he visited family in Three crossings when he was young and Denna is the one we have no info on. Her parents "disowned" her.
WMF pg 485
"Of course it will be hard, you silly little bint", Denna said sharply. "They'll hold it over your head for the rest of your life. Folk will whisper when you walk by on the street. It will be hard to find a husband.. You'll lose friends. But that's the price you'll have to pay if you want anything like your normal life back again."
I'm not saying the aunt thing isn't true. In fact, thats what I believed at first too, but you can clearly make a argument for both people.
okay. so i think we just don't take young at all. since that's just a indication of time. i don't think Denna would run away just to return. especially if it was a Ruh.
you can assume that she is the elder sister because she was disowned and her younger sister became the heir. if meluan was older she would be the heir already. meluan is his aunt without a doubt. the real question is what is in her box, and is it the same box from the song kvothe got into trouble for singing about when he was a kid, and is it the same box that is in his room at the wayside inn. or is that how he learned to make his box, which apparently he can no longer open
I definately agree with the theory of Netalia being Kvothe's mom. Not only does Alehkia bring up great points, but Kvothe recognized Meluan when he first meets her at the banquet. He gets caught staring at her. At one point (sorry, don't know the exact page number) he is going through his mind to find out where he has seen her. He thinks about the Eolian and the University, but then implies that he would remember the person if it was that recent. He hasn't seen his mother in years. I believe Meluan reminds him of his mother, but it hasn't accured to him yet. Just a thought.
Alekhia wrote: "I've posted this elsewhere, but i think that kvothe's mom is undeniably the lackless sister that ran away with the ruh troupe. There is too much evidence for it not to be the case.1) kvothe's mo..."
Thank you for listing all the evidence and making such a compelling argument, Alekhia. I agree - it seems fairly obvious that Kvothe's late mother was the runaway Lackless heir.
Jeremy wrote: "I definately agree with the theory of Netalia being Kvothe's mom. Not only does Alehkia bring up great points, but Kvothe recognized Meluan when he first meets her at the banquet. He gets caught st..."Great observation, Jeremy! You're right - if Denna were the missing Lackless sister, Kvothe no doubt would've been able to identify the resemblance between her and Meluan without much difficulty.
This is the passage:
"...her profile struck me with such a strong resemblance that I couldn't help but stare. I knew her, I was certain of it. But I couldn't for the life of me remember where we might have met....Might I have met her at the Eolian? That didn't seem likely. I would have remembered."
Kvothe sees Denna quite frequently. Moreover, they often meet at the Eolian, which Rothfuss specifically eliminates as a possibility in this passage. I doubt it's her.
Kvothe's mother, on the other hand, died years ago when Kvothe was very young. In book 2, he mentions that he's avoided thinking about her over the years because the memory of his parents hurts too much. If she was indeed the runaway Lackless, it makes perfect sense that Kvothe would have trouble pinpointing who exactly Meluan resembles.
I seem to remember Kvothe telling someone his mother's name, and I don't remember it being Netalia...Perhaps it was when he was drunk, telling his friends about his old family, and the time his mother made his father sleep under the caravan? Or perhaps my memory is playing tricks on me...Either way I guess it's possible that his mother may have changed her name after running away. But the reason Lackless can't be his aunt is because it's TOO OBVIOUS! Kvothe would have figured it out, wouldn't he have?
@ Sanjiv,When i first read the book, i thought it was too obvious too. But i went back to that passage you're referring to. Kvothe tells Wil and Sim that his mother's name is Laurian, and then recites that song that his father wrote for her.
Dark Laurian, Arliden's wife,
Has a face like a blade of a knife
Has a voice like a prickledown burr
But can tally a sum like a moneylender.
My sweet Tally cannot cook.
But she keeps a tidy ledger-book
For all her faults I do confess
It's worth my life
To make my wife
Not tally a lot less...
In this poem, he calls her both Laurian and Tally, which is a common nickname for Natalia.
Also, say "not tally a lot less" out loud a couple times really fast. It sounds exactly like "netalia lockless". So i think the reason that arliden had to sleep under the wagon was because he revealed Laurian's true identity.
yes! I later saw all this posted on another thread, and it blew my mind. "Not tally a lot less..." Jeez, that's insanely devious....on a separate note, does it seem like Laurian went to the University? Couldn't be, right? She didn't seem to say anything of the sort to Abernathy when he brought it up.
To me the line "Not tally a lot less..." stood out as just odd and a bit non-sensical. It sort of makes sense in the song's context, but lacks the cleverness I would expect.That oddity, to me, is the most compelling evidence that this is indeed a clue naming Kvothe's mother as Netalia Lockless; otherwise the line feels a bit forced with no explanation other than some clumsiness on PR's part, which I refuse to accept.
Just wanted to throw a couple things out there....Is it possible That the end of the song may be "natelia a lot less?" As in less than what she was born into... noble to trouper is quite a step down..
Also, I believe Melaun is in line for the crown ahead of Ambrose. I think this will be important in book 3...
I don't understand why anyone subscribes to the theory that Denna is the runaway Lackless sister. It just seems so, well, random. None of the clues point toward her, and not one piece of compelling evidence supports this theory. Denna is Kvothe's love interest, you guys, not the answer to life, the universe, and everything.
@Gavin: I have yet to see anyone make an argument for Denna that is even remotely persuasive and based on more than just "But Denna's so mysterious! So it must be her!"
Mary wrote: "42!"What's the question though?
Phil the Arcane wrote: "Mary wrote: "42!"What's the question though?"
"Denna?"
Cat wrote: What's the question though?""Denna?""
Adams might roll over in his grave.
Jwbs wrote: "Also, I believe Melaun is in line for the crown ahead of Ambrose. I think this will be important in book 3.."Which Crown? You meant the King of Vint's, I take it...If so, would Kvothe be inserted into the queue ahead of Ambrose, assuming he's Meluan's nephew?
Otherwise, it still would have been funny to have Kvothe take the Maer's throne, while Ambrose takes Vint...Though Ambrose ever got power, the only good and proper thing to do would be to kill him. He's dangerous, ruthless, and stupid enough as it is already.
Side question: The Lackless Box smelled something faintly of lemon--was that a smell he noticed while he was in Fae? And is that the same material used to make the box he keeps in the waystone inn, or the frame for the sword, Folly?
wow... right you are... hmmm... good clue... i didnt even remember the smell thing... i think it was the same smell... i thought it was Roah too... after all he didnt know about Roah then... did he... is it called Roah???
I'm not sure it was Roah... Seems too easy....
@ sanjiv comment #26: yes, the king of Vint. Alveron and 2 Lackless's are ahead of Ambrose for the crown.What I'm trying to figure out is who it is kvothe is gonna kill in book 3. My opinion is there will be several and obviously some will be very important. I think several small, seemingly insignificant bits of information have been dropped throughout books 1 & 2 that will be pertinent during the events of book 3...
Well, we know he's a Kingkiller. And we know he's widely unpopular. Ambrose's father is just steps sway from king, I think, if I recall correctly. But that doesn't mean he'll kill him. It's a possibility however.
Ambrose was 16th from the crown during notw. I assume his father is one step above him. Wmf doesn't specify how close he is after the 'unfortunant deaths' that take place. And for him to ascend to the throne would mean the death of the maer as well as the lackless family...
Ah... I remember now, thanks.So not him.
I wonder who the lucky King is. Is there anyone who may have the potential?
I always assumed that either Kvothe was framed, or that a body-snatcher demon inhabited the king's body, and needed to be stopped.With a name as notorious as 'King Killer,' I'm sure the death was something spectacular, not a quiet murder. A battle of thunder and fire?
Well, by murder I just assumed a death was caused by him, spectacular or otherwise. :)And you never know. The king could have been misusing his power, and Kvothe, along with over half of the people under the King, disagreed with his method of rule, but there was no way to remove him besides assassination.
Somehow, I don't think Kvothe was framed. But I may be wrong.
Kvothe wasnt framed... so far i have pieced that he does in fact kill Ambrose... if i remember correctly... the last time anyone remembers kvothe singing was the night he killed a man by a fountain... there is a fountain at the Eolian... piece together... who is worth killing... another hint... ta da!!!! Kvothe kills ambrose outside the Eolian... which is the last time kvothe sings... and therefore... the music is not the main part of the next book... that is my ilogical... but usually correct at least 93% of the time guessing...
Well, I suppose you might be right. But Ambrose isn't a King.Who would the king be?
@Kaye do you have any ideas why he didn't sing after that incident?
I think it is interesting though that near the end of WMF Chronicler catches Kvothe humming...music re-entering the equation...I like the sound of that...
I wasnt meaning Ambrose is the king... im just saying that we know Ambrose dies... plus... Alveron could be the king who Kvothe kills for the lockless box... hmmm... @Kyle... i didnt really think about it at first... but now that you have pointed it out... its possible he stops singing because after that he has nothing to sing about... he already warned us his life only got worse from that point...
I really hope he finds some way to redeem himself
Why do we think Kvothe's king killing has to do with the normal world, and not with greater fae-word conflicts that involve the chandrian, angels, etc?1 -Haliax reminds Cinder who protects him from the singers.
2- Kvothe has a bunch of presumably fae magic stuff at his inn.
3 - There are demon spiders involved towards the front lines of the war (did I get the geography wrong?)
Doesn't it make more sense the Kvothe no longer sings because it's caused bad things in the past? Presmably bad things involving the fae?
Yes, well he did say he had a silver tongue... and he is quite good at getting people to do things... so it is possible... but he is a musician... and practicality does not fall in that line of thinking...
Why are there so many things that so few people talk about?i.e. the box that Meluan won't talk about with most people.
i.e. the University, which is secretive about its magics,
i.e. the Adem, who are, heck, the Adem.
i.e. the Amyr...
An interesting thing about all these groups is that they were all once attacked my the masses, and lost the prevailing power struggle. The standing winner, on the other hand, would be the King of Vint.
Fast forward to when the Maer and Meluan are going to be hitched, and we find Cinder stealing from Maer, and for what? Ultimately I see Vint's power growing, and I'd imagine the King supplied Cinder with his men. Those soldiers had to come from somewhere, right?
There seems to be binary conflict: The Chandrian and Vint Vs. Everyone else.
This is good... but why would the Chandrian want contact with the Vint... what do they gain??? is their only mission to kill anyone whos speaks thier names??? what purpose is that???
Actually their only mission is kill everyone, and salt the earth, as per Lanre/haliax description of what he would do after he burned Myr Tariniel, HE suffered some unspeakable agony, and now wants to "save" the world from ever having to go through what he did...
Many serpents. Many heads. Hard to kill them all.One serpent. One head...Tastes like chicken.
If everything becomes Vint, and the Chandrian control Vint, then that makes their job easier. But more over, I think that the Chandrian would use the laws of the land to fight their enemies. I.e. the Ruh, the Lockless, than small country I think Denna's from where they read knots.
Yll? that is the palce where they read knots... where did you get the serpent quote?
So- have at it!