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βҽϲκαӏίη (beckergurl) | 11 comments I'm in a heated discussion with another goodreads member about abortions. She said basing my opinion partially on religion is "immoral". Does this make sense to anybody? That really rubbed me the wrong way..,


message 2: by Wingstar (new)

Wingstar I dont know what you meant by "immoral", but i am against abortions.


message 3: by Okie (new)

Okie (okiecavies) | 25 comments Morality is defined as adherence to a code of right conduct. Most of us derive our code of conduct from religion and/or social mores. Are you sure you're not debating a 13 year old? To suggest a lack of morality b/c you base your opinion on your religious beliefs indicates an almost juvenile lack of knowledge. Stay the course, honey!! [encouragement]


message 4: by Christina (new)

Christina | 91 comments Pro-Life foreever <3 Every life is worthwhile, and a baby is alive the moment it is conceived. Christ loves all of us, and every single person deserves a chance to live


βҽϲκαӏίη (beckergurl) | 11 comments Exactly. And no, she's a 16-17 year old...she keeps saying that "people need choices", and then I bring up the whole, don't sleep together if you're not married point. And she gets all "if you really love someone, you'll know when you're ready..,"
If you really love someone, you'll wait!


message 6: by Natalie (new)

Natalie I am Pro-Life, and will ALWAYS be Pro-Life :)
There is no such thing as 'Pro-Choice', because that woman had the choice to get herself into the position and the baby shouldn't be the one who has to pay for her mistake. And that baby, a human being, has a choice, but no one can stick of for them except for that woman or the abortionist.
It's a terrible crime, and it's murder. It's killing a human being who doesn't have the ability to enter this world like we all do.
And yes, there is such a thing called rape, but that isn't a reason to kill a baby.
"I noticed that all people who are for abortion have been born." -Ronald Reagan


message 7: by Dibily Do (new)

Dibily Do | 214 comments Alex-wa wrote: "I am pro-life as well. I think that everyone deserves a chance to live, and that a human life isn't other humans' to take."

I agree

I'm pro-life as well to


Chiara  ♪*CheesecakeLover*♪ | 684 comments I'm undecided. Which technically means I'm pro-choice, as I have yet to choose...


βҽϲκαӏίη (beckergurl) | 11 comments But if you're Christian, you kinda should be pro life...
Why do you think abortion is good?


message 10: by Natalie (new)

Natalie Chiara ♪*CheesecakeLover*♪ wrote: "I'm undecided. Which technically means I'm pro-choice, as I have yet to choose..."

Pro-Choice doesn't exist. it's just a name for people who don't want to sound as bad as pro-abortion even though they think abortion is right in some circumstances.

Pro-Choice IS pro-abortion.


message 11: by Okie (last edited Mar 07, 2011 08:04AM) (new)

Okie (okiecavies) | 25 comments I have two major difficulties with today's definition of 'medically necessary' abortions. First, according to current interpretation, if having a baby will interfere with a woman's career choice, then the abortion can be considered 'medically necessary'. Second is the practice of allowing abortion in the third trimester. Abortion for 'medical' reasons in the third trimester is medically a very scary option, not to mention 'partial birth'. I think these definitions are a slap in the face to those women / men who truly ARE in the position of balancing the life of the mother and the life of the child.


Chiara  ♪*CheesecakeLover*♪ | 684 comments Nattie *faithful* wrote: "Chiara ♪*CheesecakeLover*♪ wrote: "I'm undecided. Which technically means I'm pro-choice, as I have yet to choose..."

Pro-Choice doesn't exist. it's just a name for people who don't want to..."


Ok then, I'm pro-abortion.


Chiara  ♪*CheesecakeLover*♪ | 684 comments βҽϲκαӏίη wrote: "But if you're Christian, you kinda should be pro life...
Why do you think abortion is good?"


I don't think it's good- I just don't think it's bad.


message 14: by Christina (new)

Christina | 91 comments One of my small group leaders when I was younger was almost aborted. So many people have been impacted by my friend, and if her mother had had an abortion, I would never have had the opportunity to meet such an incredible person!


message 15: by Kristen (new)

Kristen | 349 comments Nattie *faithful* wrote: ""I noticed that all people who are for abortion have been born." -Ronald Reagan"

And all the ones who are abortion survivors are against it.


message 16: by Kristen (new)

Kristen | 349 comments Barbara or EndlesslySparkly wrote: "im Pro Life,i understand that many females who get abortions are teens these days..."

Actually I read somewhere (wish I could remember where at the moment - I think it was some article on the Justin Beiber 'controversial' abortion statement) that the majority of the younger generation are starting to realize that abortion is murder and are against it.


message 17: by Kristen (new)

Kristen | 349 comments I'm starting to realize that most people who claim to be pro-choice aren't really. Especially in light of this recent move to defund Planned Parenthood(yay!). You either say abortions are ok or you're ridiculed and basically called an idiot and anti-woman's rights(ridiculous).


message 18: by Kristen (new)

Kristen | 349 comments Chiara ♪*CheesecakeLover*♪ wrote: "I don't think it's good- I just don't think it's bad."

It's very very bad. Even if you don't think it's murder(which it is), it's very dangerous for the mother.
Most women (about 98%) who have had them say they wouldn't do it again and don't recommend it for anyone else.


message 19: by Okie (new)

Okie (okiecavies) | 25 comments I agree, Kristen. Most of the time abortion actually endangers the life of the mother. Precisely what it is allegedly intended to preserve. Again, I get stuck on that ridiculously extended definition for 'medical necessity'. I'm glad to see discussion on such a controversial topic being so considerately conducted!!


message 20: by Kristen (new)

Kristen | 349 comments Okiecavies wrote: "Again, I get stuck on that ridiculously extended definition for 'medical necessity'"

yes, the 'health' of the mother has come to mean pretty much any reason. It's sick and twisted how some people can be so callus and selfish about their own children. Then again:
"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves...unthankful, unholy...Without natural affection...despisers of those that are good...
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived." 2 Tim. 3.


message 21: by Danielle (last edited Mar 29, 2011 07:52PM) (new)

Danielle (ramblingbooks) Nattie *faithful* wrote: "I am Pro-Life, and will ALWAYS be Pro-Life :)
There is no such thing as 'Pro-Choice', because that woman had the choice to get herself into the position and the baby shouldn't be the one who has to..."


I didn't read all the posts on this topic, so I don't know if this has already been addressed, BUT I'm partially with you. I believe that every human being should be given the right to live, that's it is wrong to end a life before it even begins because of one person's carelessness and mistake. However, not to be harsh or rude, but do you think the victims of rape had a choice? That's where I'm torn. I believe in Pro-Life, but in rape cases, I'm at a loss. The child of a rape victim could have a miserable life. The mother could be single, and not have much money or knowledge about taking care of a baby. OR, the mother could view the child as a reminder of a painful memory and be physically/mentally abused. So is it okay to let a child into the world knowing that it would be raised in unsuitable conditions that could possibly lead it to suicide, death, or just plain emotional scars?
Anyway, that's just my opinion :)


message 22: by Kristen (new)

Kristen | 349 comments I know that's one thing that's sort of hard for alot of people to know what the right answer is, but life is precious no matter how it came about.

And if you want to know what the rape victims would want, see what they have to say:
http://theunchoice.com/hardcases.htm
78% of rape victims who chose to abort, regretted it. And of the ones that didn't, they usually don't see that child as a reminder or a burden. They love them the way any mother would.
That baby had no choice about who his father was and he's just as much his mother's baby as he is, his father's.
No one should be punished for the crimes of someone else. And abortions only add to the violence and trauma that the mother has already gone through.

Not to mention that of rape victims, it's only a very very small percentage that actually get pregnant. Something like less than 1%.

Adoption is a much better option for the mother, the baby, and other parents who would love that child as their own because maybe they can't have their own.

Rape is a horrible crime that no one should have to suffer through, but God can bring good out of the very worst situation.


Chiara  ♪*CheesecakeLover*♪ | 684 comments OK- having read this topic through, and also having read lots of books, other debates etc. I think that abortion is, well, not wrong, but that people shouldn't do it.


message 24: by Dibily Do (new)

Dibily Do | 214 comments well if you believe that people shouldn't do it then why leave the abortion option out there?
(please don't say 'They have a right to have an abortion')


message 25: by Kristen (new)

Kristen | 349 comments My question is, if something isn't wrong, why shouldn't people do it?


Chiara  ♪*CheesecakeLover*♪ | 684 comments Kristen wrote: "My question is, if something isn't wrong, why shouldn't people do it?"

Um..idk...maybe...ok maybe it is wrong...


Chiara  ♪*CheesecakeLover*♪ | 684 comments N.S.A (Search for the truth) wrote: "well if you believe that people shouldn't do it then why leave the abortion option out there?
(please don't say 'They have a right to have an abortion')"


Well, that is the answer and they do have the right. If they actually feel that they cannot go through giving birth then it is their choice.


message 28: by Dibily Do (new)

Dibily Do | 214 comments yes but the child has rights to, to live or not to live.


Chiara  ♪*CheesecakeLover*♪ | 684 comments It can't choose whether to live or not live.


message 30: by Kristen (new)

Kristen | 349 comments Chiara ♪*CheesecakeLover*♪ wrote: "Kristen wrote: "My question is, if something isn't wrong, why shouldn't people do it?"

Um..idk...maybe...ok maybe it is wrong..."


lol, I was just wondering what you meant, b/c that didn't make sense to me.


message 31: by Kristen (new)

Kristen | 349 comments Chiara ♪*CheesecakeLover*♪ wrote: "It can't choose whether to live or not live."

Just because someone can't choose it, doesn't mean they shouldn't be given the very basic right to live.

The Jews in Nazi Germany weren't given that choice. Nor were the Native Americans in the 1800's. As well as scores of other people throughout history.
Just because someone determines the life of one group of people to be of less value than they are themselves, does not make it right.


The rights of one person should never supersede the rights of another. Especially when you look at the vast difference in the importance of those rights - one being the right to choose not to deal with the consequences of your actions as opposed to the right to be allowed to live.

It's really no different than a mother deciding her newborn or 5 year old or 10 year old doesn't deserve to live any longer.
It's a child either way. The reasons for her killing her child don't matter. It's still wrong.


Chiara  ♪*CheesecakeLover*♪ | 684 comments Kristen wrote: "Chiara ♪*CheesecakeLover*♪ wrote: "It can't choose whether to live or not live."

Just because someone can't choose it, doesn't mean they shouldn't be given the very basic right to live.

The Jews..."


You're right. You're all right. But I just think, imagine if I had a child at sixteen, abandoning all my chances at life...being burdened with a baby...I don't know, I probably would keep it..but you read all these books saying oh they always keep it...


message 33: by Kristen (last edited Apr 02, 2011 03:17PM) (new)

Kristen | 349 comments Chiara ♪*CheesecakeLover*♪ wrote: "I just think, imagine if I had a child at sixteen, abandoning all my chances at life...being burdened with a baby...I don't know, I probably would keep it..but you read all these books saying oh they always keep it... "

I know what you're saying. That's a hard situation. But unless someone is raped, if they get pregnant at that age, it's their own fault. They chose to have sex. If you're old enough to have sex, you're old enough to have a baby. It's not exactly a secret that that's how you get pregnant.
An abortion in that situation is just a way of not dealing with the consequences of your actions. And it causes SO many other problems. Imagine deciding to have an abortion b/c you're not ready for a baby, but then you can't have kids later b/c of the abortion.
Girls of that age have no business having sex in the first place, but they "want to be treated like adults", so they figure it's ok. But it's not mature to run from your responsibilities at all. The adult thing to do is accept that you screwed up, live with the consequences, and do what's in the best interest of the innocent child involved.

And, no, they don't always keep it. Sometimes that mother knows that she can't give her baby the kind of life it should have, so she gives it up. But there aren't necessarily books on too many of those cases.
http://www.adopthelp.com/?gclid=CJHfs...

But no one is forcing that girl to keep it. There are always loving people waiting for a baby. It might be hard to give it up, but how is that worse than killing it?

It's not the baby's fault that the mother got pregnant so young. Why should he be punished for it?

And even if she did keep it, her life isn't over. I know several people who got pregnant very young and their lives aren't over. They love their kids just like any good mother.
Maybe it changed their lives, sure, but that doesn't mean their lives are awful.


Chiara  ♪*CheesecakeLover*♪ | 684 comments Again, you're right. But you know, its difficult- especially from my perspective, being 13..


message 35: by Kristen (new)

Kristen | 349 comments Chiara ♪*CheesecakeLover*♪ wrote: "Again, you're right. But you know, its difficult- especially from my perspective, being 13.."

I know, it's too bad that you have to think about things like this being so young. I never did at your age...But just keep in mind it's a baby. A human being, deserving of life, just like you or I were.


message 36: by Okie (new)

Okie (okiecavies) | 25 comments I don't know what it's like to carry a rapist's child, and have that reminder always. What I do know is that if anyone deserves the death penalty it's the rapist, not the child. My apologies if this is hurtful &/or offensive--that is a horrible, horrible situation to be in, and a very painful choice to have to make. Stay strong, and know that you are loved, no matter what!


Chiara  ♪*CheesecakeLover*♪ | 684 comments Kristen wrote: "I know, it's too bad that you have to think about things like this being so young. I never did at your age...But just keep in mind it's a baby. A human being, deserving of life, just like you or I were."

Yes, it is. =D


message 38: by Tesse (new)

Tesse | 25 comments βҽϲκαӏίη wrote: "I'm in a heated discussion with another goodreads member about abortions. She said basing my opinion partially on religion is "immoral". Does this make sense to anybody? That really rubbed me the w..."

You can't bring up relegion in an argument like that.(please don't go all Bible-thumping/preachy on me because I had enough of that in several other topics in this group....) Once you bring up relegion in a debate, you've lost it completely. You have to take the scientific nature and what they say and use it against them. I've done it several times and people yell at me because of it but they've said themselves that I'm right. I agree that abortion is wrong and all, but you have to take each side of the arguement and take only the facts that can be used.


message 39: by Dibily Do (new)

Dibily Do | 214 comments Tess~chan wrote: "βҽϲκαӏίη wrote: "I'm in a heated discussion with another goodreads member about abortions. She said basing my opinion partially on religion is "immoral". Does this make sense to anybody? That reall..."

I agree with you but when it comes to evolution vs. creation, Separation of Church and State, debating with Atheists on if God is real or not, etc... the talk of religion should be allowed in


message 40: by Tesse (last edited May 10, 2011 08:41AM) (new)

Tesse | 25 comments N.S.A (Search for the Truth) wrote: "Tess~chan wrote: "βҽϲκαӏίη wrote: "I'm in a heated discussion with another goodreads member about abortions. She said basing my opinion partially on religion is "immoral". Does this make sense to a..."

I agree with that statement but when you bring it in a debate, people get turned off and you automatically lose. It's best to slowly bring them to your side before bringing relegion into the debate.


Chiara  ♪*CheesecakeLover*♪ | 684 comments Tess~chan wrote: "N.S.A (Search for the Truth) wrote: "Tess~chan wrote: "βҽϲκαӏίη wrote: "I'm in a heated discussion with another goodreads member about abortions. She said basing my opinion partially on religion is..."

that's very true.


message 43: by Stephanie (new)

Stephanie on this my pov.is if u have sex and its ur fault w/out a condom or pill then u have to keep the baby that is ur mistake.if u r raped or something like that,i think u should have a choice cuz it wasnt ur fault


message 44: by Kristen (last edited Dec 14, 2011 09:03PM) (new)

Kristen | 349 comments Steph wrote: "on this my pov.is if u have sex and its ur fault w/out a condom or pill then u have to keep the baby that is ur mistake.if u r raped or something like that,i think u should have a choice cuz it was..."

Well, I wouldn't say you have to keep the baby. But you should have to give it life. Sometimes, giving a baby up to someone who can love it and take care of it, is the best thing you could do for that child. And there are plenty of people who want a baby.

On the second thing, Why does how a baby was conceived lessen it's value as a person? It's not the baby's fault the mother was raped.
More trauma(an abortion) isn't going to help that woman out in the slightest. It's only going to add to her problems. Adding guilt and potentially alot of health problems. And it sentences and innocent person to death for something someone else did.

Besides that, pregnancy is a rare occurrence from rape(not impossible, but rare - it only happens about 5% of the time according to RAINN) and many women who do become pregnant don't choose an abortion.

"in the only major study of pregnant rape victims ever done prior to this book, Dr. Sandra Mahkorn found that 75 to 85 percent did not have abortions." http://afterabortion.org/2004/rape-in...
Of the one's who did choose abortion, 78% regretted it. http://www.theunchoice.com/coerced.htm

I think people are so quick to be sympathetic to a woman in that situation, they don't even stop to ask what they would want or what they would suffer from our 'compassion'. It's still her child. And the effects from an abortion can haunt her for the rest of her life.

If you want to see the damage from abortion - whether it was rape or not - take a look at the victims of it: http://www.theunchoice.com/coerced.htm

Abortion helps no one, but it hurts a whole lot of people in huge ways.

Besides, if God allowed that baby to be conceived, I think He knows what He's doing. Don't you?


message 45: by Stephanie (new)

Stephanie Kristen wrote: "Steph wrote: "on this my pov.is if u have sex and its ur fault w/out a condom or pill then u have to keep the baby that is ur mistake.if u r raped or something like that,i think u should have a cho..."

Yes I do that you can adopt but its like murder.killing your own kid.but it were me i would keep the baby


message 46: by Kristen (new)

Kristen | 349 comments I think I would too, but I guess you can't really be sure until you're in that situation.

"its like murder.killing your own kid"

yes, exactly. I don't understand how so many people can't seem to grasp this very basic concept. How can people be so callous to their own children. People amaze and disgust me sometimes...


message 47: by Kristen (last edited Dec 18, 2011 12:30PM) (new)

Kristen | 349 comments I think doctors think they know more than they do sometimes.
Not to say that doctors don't know anything, but sometimes they think they know everything. Truthfully, they never really know what absolutely will happen 100% of the time. Particularly the ones who don't think anything is wrong with abortion. I've heard story after story about doctors who told the mother that her life was at risk, or the lives of her other babies if it was a multiple pregnancy - and that they should abort one or more. And when the mothers refused, they all(or almost all) made it. Some with health problems, maybe, but they were all alive.
In one instance that my nursing roommate told me about, the baby that the doctors said would kill the mother if she continued, actually fixed the problem and saved her life as it was allowed to grow and eventually be born.

Now, I won't say the situation doesn't happen when the mother's life is truly going to be at risk, but honestly there's no way to know for certain. I think as Christians, we ought to be willing to put it in God's hands rather than the doctor's. He created both the mother and the baby and I think He can take care of them.

And anyway, what makes one life more valuable than another? Why is the mother's life worth more than her baby's?


message 48: by Kristen (new)

Kristen | 349 comments Alex ~The Veggie Monster~ wrote: "I will probably be going on the March For Life in January in Washington D.C. I'm so excited! :D"

Awesome :) Wish I could go.


Cat *living for the One who breaths life into me* | 21 comments Christina wrote: "Pro-Life foreever <3 Every life is worthwhile, and a baby is alive the moment it is conceived. Christ loves all of us, and every single person deserves a chance to live"

amen. :)


message 50: by Kristen (new)

Kristen | 349 comments Yeah, isn't that funny that they'll say "my body, my choice", when in reality it's not their body. It's someone elses body that they're destroying.


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