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message 1: by Mary, Minion the 1st, Chancellor (new)

Mary (mary_believes_in_faeries) | 142 comments Mod
This is the thread for those who want to discuss the Wise Man's Fear after they have finished it.
Spoli away!


message 2: by William (new)

William Owen | 27 comments Rings Rings Rings! There is so much in this book about rings. The rings namers wear, Kvothe's rings (his 10! rings), the rings of the Maer's court, Denna's ring - and the significance of each is vastly different.

I was also thrilled by the scene between Kvothe and Elodin when they discover each has been helping and interacting with Auri, particularly Elodin's interest in how Kvothe gave Auri her name. This is what led me both to surmise that Master Ash is Cinder, and that Kote must die in order for Kvothe to return :)


message 3: by Tim (last edited Mar 02, 2011 01:46AM) (new)

Tim | 8 comments Rings? Ye gads, I hadn't really thought about it that much (which is probably why I should re-read it, instead of struggling sleep deprived to finish it). I thought of the rings mostly in the Maer's court, but forgot about the namers rings.

I was more interesteted in the Ademre though. If Kvothe got through the trials with the little he knew, he has to go back sometime to learn how to fight better and rise through the stones- otherwise any Adem mercenary would be able to take him easily!

My biggest thought though, is that it is gonna be super tough to get young Kvothe's story (what is he 16-17 at the end? No not counting his time in the Fae) up to what Kote's age is, in 1 book alone. I hope there is gonna be a few more, because tWMF is chocka. And. I. Loved. It!!!


message 4: by William (new)

William Owen | 27 comments Tim wrote: "My biggest thought though, is that it is gonna be super tough to get young Kvothe's story (what is he 16-17 at the end? No not counting his time in the Fae) up to what Kote's age is, in 1 book alone."

How old do you think Kote is?


message 5: by Rosscarter5 (new)

Rosscarter5 | 33 comments Loved the book. I was dismayed with knowing that the Seven were all still alive. Cthaeh really was quite disturbing. I thought the way Pat described the Ademic Conversations was masterful (understatement).


message 6: by Rosscarter5 (new)

Rosscarter5 | 33 comments I can't remember the last time I read a book not knowing whether the ending would be tragedy or whether good will save the day. TNotW was fun and I truly believed Kvothe was a hero and would vanquish whatever evil was set before him. WMF is one of the finest books I have ever read and reading it over the span of a day left me feeling like I made an 8 way binding. I am no longer certain what this series may hold in terms of a final ending. I am left only with hope for the future but no certainty. In high fantasy literature that is an amazing thing.

I don't know if Pat reads these posts, but if he does I would only say Thank you. I count myself blessed for what he has shared with us.


message 7: by Tim (last edited Mar 02, 2011 07:04PM) (new)

Tim | 8 comments @Wado: Middle aged? He's pictured as a bearded man on Pat's blog, where theres a cartoon play that summarises NotW: http://blog.patrickrothfuss.com/2011/...

@Rosscarter: I know what you mean. Especially with 1)the way he killed those bandits in the forest and 2) the way he killed the troupe including the women. He's mostly good, but then he becomes a cold killer. Methinks he has a touch of Anakin Skywalker, pre-Darth Vader.


message 8: by William (last edited Mar 03, 2011 07:21AM) (new)

William Owen | 27 comments Tim wrote: "@Wado: Middle aged? He's pictured as a bearded man on Pat's blog, where theres a cartoon play that summarises NotW: http://blog.patrickrothfuss.com/2011/...

See, I don't think he's that old. I think Kote is played that old by Kvothe (he is Edema Ruh after all), but I think Kvothe is around 30 by the time he's telling his tale.


message 9: by Kurt (new)

Kurt Mcabee | 11 comments @Wado I seem to remember in NotW that he was described as looking not yet 25.


message 10: by Hal (new)

Hal Flowers | 4 comments I'm wondering how he could have not recognized his dear old Auntie Meluan! (If she's not his mother's sister, I'll eat an entire copy of NoTW!)
He didn't recognize Cinder either, so maybe his memory is still a bit fuddled from the 'forgetting' he did while he was living rough after the 7 attacked the troupe.
He probably didn't know that much about his mother's family, given that she ran away with Arl, so he didn't expect to be seeing someone that looked like her. He didn't recognize Cinder because he was not expecting one of the Chandrian to be hanging out in the woods with a bunch of bandits.


message 11: by William (new)

William Owen | 27 comments Kurt wrote: "@Wado I seem to remember in NotW that he was described as looking not yet 25."

I think its been kept intentionally vague, and I remember the scene you're talking about. He very well might be 25 (i put him at 28 personally). One perception of Kvothe again and again by characters is that he appears much older than he is, and there is something to be said for the candle that burns brightest as well (and now consider that adage alongside Kilvin's Ever-Burning Lamp!).


message 12: by Greg (new)

Greg | 1 comments It seems to me that when Kvothe saves Denna in Tarbeam when she can't breathe he does not use the name of the wind. It is not like the other times when the name simply comes to him, there is normally a small description of the wind.

In this case the description is of Denna: "I leaned close enough to kiss her. She smelled of selas flower, of green grass, of road dust. I felt her strain to breathe. I listened. I closed my eyes. I heard the whisper of a name."

"A name", not specifically the name of the wind. My idea is that he instead spoke Denna's true name without knowing.


message 13: by Rosscarter5 (new)

Rosscarter5 | 33 comments In NotW after the death of his parents he sealed off portions of his mind and he was much more helpless. Do you think that in WMF something similarly tragic happened and his mind has been compromised in order to better deal with what happened leaving him much more powerless? probably not to the same as when his parents died because his memory is still good but maybe something happened to his sleeping mind, his alar, etc.


message 14: by William (new)

William Owen | 27 comments Rosscarter5 wrote: "In NotW after the death of his parents he sealed off portions of his mind and he was much more helpless. Do you think that in WMF something similarly tragic happened and his mind has been compromi..."

In WMF, Elodin nearly panics when Kvothe is asking him about Denna, about what he would think of a person who constantly changes their name, and Elodin thinks Kvothe is talking about himself. I think a namer's name is the most important thing they have and the power of naming is bound to a person through their name.


I don't think his mind has necessarily been compromised, but I think his name might have, and that he might have done it to himself. We already know he got the name "Kote" from Kilvin, when the Master asks him if he knows the expression “Chan Vaen edan Kote” after the fire in the Fishery. I'm fairly certain Kote means Disaster.


message 15: by Rosscarter5 (new)

Rosscarter5 | 33 comments @ WADO good point. I'm re-reading WMF and I see that Kote retains Kvothe's abilities, but all of his actions seem to result in disaster. His abilities are also diminished for whatever reason.

On another note. I was wondering if he is maintaining some sort of Alar to protect himself and thus further sympathy is made more difficult. I do not think this is likely though.

Also, I wonder if he decided to break his mind into multiple pieces. One of which I think is Kote and he is operating from this piece of his mind.


message 16: by William (new)

William Owen | 27 comments Greg wrote: ""A name", not specifically the name of the wind. My idea is that he instead spoke Denna's true name without knowing. "

Ooo, that's a good one.


message 17: by Mary, Minion the 1st, Chancellor (new)

Mary (mary_believes_in_faeries) | 142 comments Mod
The alar- I'm pretty sure I picked up the answer to that. He compares his alar *several* times to a blade of Ramston (sp?) steel. We are also told several times that Ramston is strong but brittle. (!!!)
The tinker that sells him the knife, while he's working in the fishery(?), the buckles on his lute case... More than once. We’re even shown that a Ramston steel knife broke during the encounter with the bandits.
So, my theory- his alar was very strong but has been broken. We were told how Devi thinks of her alar as the ocean in storm. The point of that would be to show that Devi thinks of her alar as something that is flexible or in motion compared to Kvothe's unbending alar. And she wiped the floor with him when they went toe to toe. It might also be significant that he thinks of his alar as a blade. I don’t think that’s of the Lethani since Vashet smacked him around for thinking of a sword as merely a killing weapon.

Hm. This got lengthy- sorry!


message 18: by Rosscarter5 (new)

Rosscarter5 | 33 comments Mary wrote: "The alar- I'm pretty sure I picked up the answer to that. He compares his alar *several* times to a blade of Ramston (sp?) steel. We are also told several times that Ramston is strong but brittle. ..."

Great point.


message 19: by Hal (new)

Hal Flowers | 4 comments Something came to me regarding the 4-plate door today while I was reading an early version of Chapter 40 that I found on the webs (possibly linked to it from this site, but I can't remember!).
Anyway, the 4-plate door has one word carved in it: Valaritas.
And in the middle of that word? ALAR.


message 20: by Emily (new)

Emily (bluish) | 2 comments is bast kvothe and felurian's son? also dammit but rothfuss is a genius a tricky weaselly cunning witty genius


message 21: by Sophie (new)

Sophie (kurosymph) | 29 comments Did something happen to Kvothe's hands that made it impossible to play music again? In the beginning of NotW he stares at his hands (don't have the quote); in WMF, when Kvothe asks why anyone would go near the Cthaeh:
' "The flowers are a panacea,Reshi. They can heal any illness. Cure any poison. MEND ANY WOUND."
Kvothe raised his eyebrows at that. "ah" he said, LOOKING DOWN AT HIS FOLDED HANDS on the tabletop."I see. I understand how that may draw a person in, though they knew better." '
And the "If they had been music... but no, OF COURSE there was no music"s

Also, are the Amyr "accessible" through the lockless door of the Lackless? The Ctaeh said the Maer would lead him to their door, precising eventually Kvothe'd get the joke.

@Emily: In NotW Kvothe introduce Bast to Chonicler as Remme's son, and adds he is 150 years old ( but perhaps those are faerie years?)

There's an odd symmetry betwneen some character's names and some of their aspects: Elodin/Taborlin: both namers... Kvothe/*shudder* Lanre? both having trouble sleeping, related to shadows, having talked to the Cthaeh...

And lastly, is Folly Cinder's sword?


message 22: by Dallas (new)

Dallas | 18 comments Folly could be Cinder's sword. Never thought of that. Two things I wondered about:

1. It sounds like Kvothe's mother was the sister of Lady Lackless. He thinks Lady Lackless looks familiar when he sees her the first time and her sister supposedly ran off with a Ruh trouper.

2. The book mentions a shaper that was really bad so they locked him away behind a door. The four-plate door possibly?


message 23: by Anthony (new)

Anthony (anttruong) | 20 comments Yes, I expect Kvothe's mother was the elder Lackless sister. Too many coincidences for her not to be. Remember too that she chided Kvothe and Arliden for singing the Lady Lackless song.

From NotW:

I brought the tripod back and helped her set it over the fire. “Also, Lady Perial is just a character. Lady Lackless is a real person, with feelings that can be hurt.” She looked up at me.

“I didn’t know,” I protested guiltily.

I must have struck a sufficiently piteous figure because she gathered me in for a hug and a kiss, “It’s nothing to cry over, sweet one. Just remember to always think about what you’re doing.” She ran her hand over my head and smiled like the sun. “I imagine you could make it up to both Lady Lackless and myself if you found some sweet nettle for the pot tonight.”


message 24: by Kurt (new)

Kurt Mcabee | 11 comments Gavin wrote: "In the book as Kvothe is leaving the Adem he tells them he's made plans for returning his sword if he dies. Yet everyone is starting to belive he's dead and he still has the sword. So, the Adem mus..."

The sword Kvothe has hanging on the wall is different than his Adem sword. Chronicler points it out at one point in the book. Whether Kvothe still has it somewhere else or not is up in the air.


message 25: by Gavin (new)

Gavin Lackless,Lockless, Luckless, Joyless?

What about that lock less box of Meulan's? The whole time I was reading about it I kept silently screaming "it's the box from the story about Jax stealing the moon's name."

Then I wondered if Kvothe was related to Meulan could Kvothe be related to Jax?


message 26: by Brianne (new)

Brianne (iliketoreadbooks) | 91 comments Ooo. Why were you wondering if they were related?


message 27: by Anthony (new)

Anthony (anttruong) | 20 comments Gavin wrote: "Lackless,Lockless, Luckless, Joyless?

What about that lock less box of Meulan's? The whole time I was reading about it I kept silently screaming "it's the box from the story about Jax stealing the..."


The story of Jax seems to be little more than a folk tale to me. While there are seeds of truth planted in stories, it seems that Felurian's story of Iax the Shaper is much more plausible than a boy deciding to steal the moon. Though this doesn't preclude the Lacklesses being related to Iax the shaper, I suppose.


message 28: by William (new)

William Owen | 27 comments And what is if Iax is the shaper locked behind the 4 plate door, and the lockless door and only be opened with the lockless box, or even better, by one of the Lackless?


message 29: by Rosscarter5 (new)

Rosscarter5 | 33 comments @ WADO my thoughts exactly.

Also, less important, in the folk tale of jax I believe the old man at the cave is Teccam. Is he still around for Kvothe to seek knowledge from?


message 30: by Rosscarter5 (new)

Rosscarter5 | 33 comments Also, I think the Jakis family is behind the piracy on the seas on the way to Vintas. Ambrose's father is now closer to being king because of a shipwreck or piracy. It seems reasonable to suppose they could be behind it. Also, Ambrose was the one who broke the news at the university.


message 31: by Gavin (new)

Gavin I thought I'd bring this idea over from fb to hear more thoughts.

Kvothe locked his name with his magic in his trunk like jax did with the moon and now he can't get it out


message 32: by Anthony (new)

Anthony (anttruong) | 20 comments Gavin wrote: "I thought I'd bring this idea over from fb to hear more thoughts.

Kvothe locked his name with his magic in his trunk like jax did with the moon and now he can't get it out"


Eh, without citing anything from the book that makes you think this is the case, it's a bit of blind speculation. Maybe his current state is due to a broken swear to Denna?

From TNotW:
“I swear I won’t attempt to uncover your patron,” I said bitterly. “I swear it on my name and my power. I swear it by my good left hand. I swear it by the ever-moving moon.”


message 33: by Rosscarter5 (new)

Rosscarter5 | 33 comments Denna is always changing her name and she is constantly met with disaster. Could be a similar situation with Kvothe's name changes.


message 34: by Mary, Minion the 1st, Chancellor (new)

Mary (mary_believes_in_faeries) | 142 comments Mod
From TNotW:
“I swear I won’t attempt to uncover your patron,” I said bitterly. “I swear it on my name and my power. I swear it by my good left hand. I swear it by the ever-moving moon.”

Oh, no! That would explain a lot...


message 35: by Rosscarter5 (new)

Rosscarter5 | 33 comments @ Gavin the locking his name in the trunk theory. P 338 of WMF Kvothe is making up a story and said the king had his name hidden away somewhere safe so that he couldn't be hurt. Also, he gives a description of how the king locked away his same and it is similar to his own trunk.

Maybe some foreshadowing there.


message 36: by Anthony (new)

Anthony (anttruong) | 20 comments Rosscarter5 wrote: "@ Gavin the locking his name in the trunk theory. P 338 of WMF Kvothe is making up a story and said the king had his name hidden away somewhere safe so that he couldn't be hurt. Also, he gives a de..."

It's possible, but given the context of the discussion (Bast and Kote weaving outlandish tales to build a reputation for the Chronicler) I'm not so sure about it. Still, there's a seed of truth in every story.


message 37: by Brianne (new)

Brianne (iliketoreadbooks) | 91 comments There's a seed of truth in every story. It's easier to lie with truths.


message 38: by Allen (new)

Allen Tsai | 71 comments Oh interesting discussion, I was hoping to find something like this. Why didn't I think of goodreads? XD

I can't believe I never made the connection between Master Ash and Cinder. That makes too much sense.

I think the idea of Kvothe changing his name, and locking away the original has some merit. The loss of basically everything that seems to define Kvothe (no music, no sympathy, lack of interest in life) points to this. The mention of the moon's name being locked, as well as the king doing so, and including Elodin's freak out over the idea of changing someone's name repeatedly all suggest this to be possible, methinks.

Also, if Kvothe's promise of not attempting to uncover Denna's patron (especially with the incentive the tree has given him) has enough power to strip him, does it have enough to affect the moon? Perhaps they have the moon all the time now. This would help explain why there seem to be more Fae around, given Felurian's explanation of how those things work.

I'm against the idea of him having spoken Denna's true name. Felurian's was four notes, I expect a person's name to have some complexity as well.

Does anyone think he brings the downfall of the Adem school he attended? (The whole "Burning Tree" potential of his Ademic name.)

Also, can someone type out exactly what that Cth-tree said about Lackless leading him to the door of... the Chandrian? Or was it the Amyr? Also, what is the significance of Yllr (sp?). Denna knows it, it was on the box Lackless showed him. (Who doesn't think that box is important?!) Pretty world-building?

Want to read the third book sooooo much.


message 39: by Brianne (new)

Brianne (iliketoreadbooks) | 91 comments wait you haven't?


message 40: by Enginesummer (new)

Enginesummer | 27 comments At the very start in NOTW, some "sandy haired" traveler recognizes Kvothe and says "I saw the place in Imre where you killed him. By the fountain. The cobblestones are all shattered [...] They say no one can mend them" (NOTW 29). Here's hoping he kills Ambrose (a wanna-be king)!
Also, further support that Kvothe locked his name away, when he's first talking to Chronicler he says he is not what he was.
Chronicler: "And what was that, exactly?"
Kvothe: "Kvothe [...] Now I am Kote." (NOTW 47)
The distinction is important. The fact that his box resembles the Lackless' box (which I think holds a piece of the moon's name)... I don't know, just a thought.


message 41: by Kyle (new)

Kyle McMillion (McMillionkp) | 69 comments Emily wrote: "is bast kvothe and felurian's son? also dammit but rothfuss is a genius a tricky weaselly cunning witty genius"

I'm not sure if anyone else has answered this or not or responded I mean... I thought the same thing I don't have all the lines and everything about Bast's heritage so I can't tell if that's impossible or not. The age of Bast is said to be 150 years old, but you have to remember that time sin't the same in the Fae realm. I guess that would be feasible though. It is interesting to think about. I doubt that it is true, but it would be an interesting thing if it were true


message 42: by Jamie (JK) (new)

Jamie (JK) (eimajtl) Remmen would have to be another of Kvothe's name for that to be true.

Bast introduces himself, or Kvothe does, as 'Bastas, Son of Remmen, Prince of Twilight, and Twelfth Mael.'

Felurian did preside in the twilightish area...


message 43: by Kyle (new)

Kyle McMillion (McMillionkp) | 69 comments Thank you JK. I couldn't find that in the book quickly. That is the line I was talking about. I'm not sure if that completely eliminates Kvothe or not. He states that he has had more names than anyone has a right to. I still feel there is a lot surrounding the Fae that is mystery or atleast for me.

What exactly are the Mael? I thought that were malicious creatures. If they are then why is Bast with Kvothe? Are the Mael different from the Felurian type of Fae? Also does anyone know where Felurian stands in the Fae realm? Is she important or just an ordinary Fae?


message 44: by Enginesummer (new)

Enginesummer | 27 comments I don't think Kvothe could be Bast's father. Bast is, like, a fawn isn't he? That doesn't fit with either of his parents (if they were Kvothe and Felurian). Moreover, towards the start of NOTW, Chronicler and Bast have a spat and Kvothe tells them they can both learn to get along or they can get the hell out.
Kvothe wouldn't kick his own kid to the curb. Even the way he is. He'd threaten a disobedient student, but I couldn't see him doing that to his son.


message 45: by Kyle (new)

Kyle McMillion (McMillionkp) | 69 comments I can see that. Yeah I know it was farfetched and there isn't really any evidence it was just an interesting idea


message 46: by Lucsly (new)

Lucsly I didn't understand what Bast was up to at the end of the book. Why did he join the soldiers and what was it that Bast was after but didn't get? Did I miss something?


message 47: by Jamie (JK) (new)

Jamie (JK) (eimajtl) He went out to kill the soldiers. He had them go to the inn in hopes that it would get Kvothe to remember who he was. Bast didn't want them to beat Kvothe up so bad though. So, he found the soldiers and that rhyme he was doing was basically his "eeny meeny, miny moe" song - to pick which soldier to start with.


message 48: by Lucsly (new)

Lucsly Thanks, I completely missed that.


message 49: by Jamie (JK) (new)

Jamie (JK) (eimajtl) It didn't specifically say that he was going to kill them, but it can be inferred that that's what he was doing.


message 50: by Kyle (new)

Kyle McMillion (McMillionkp) | 69 comments Yeah I thought he killed them. Not only because they beat him up so bad, but to also get the money and tie up loose ends


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