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Malazan Book of the Fallen > "Gardens of the Moon" Part 3--March 1-7, 2011--Books 4 & 5 (Chapters 11-16)

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message 1: by Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (last edited Feb 28, 2011 05:35AM) (new)

Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (captain_sir_roddy) This is the folder for all of our comments and discussions on the third part of our group read of Steven Erikson's "Gardens of the Moon". Discussions open up on March 1st.

Things are really starting to heat up in Darujhistan now, with lots to talk about!


message 2: by Shelley (new)

Shelley (shelley69) | 597 comments Christopher wrote: "This is the folder for all of our comments and discussions on the third part of our group read of Steven Erikson's "Gardens of the Moon". Things are really starting to heat up in Darujhistan now, ..."

So I decided to reread Gardens while I wait for TCG come out this week. I'm almost caught up with everyone, just started chapter 9 this morning. I am SO glad I'm rereading this book now, I had forgotten all the poems and histories that are in this volume, most insightful they are! And I have to say the Deck readings make so much more since on the third go around... :)


message 3: by Raven614 (new)

Raven614 | 17 comments Still here reading with you all and reading the comments. It seems the coin has picked the young thief. So it will be interesting how this one young man, that everyone seems to like, will affect all the superpowers that are gahering in the city.


message 4: by Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos (new)

Maggie K | 1202 comments Mod
wow and another Kruppe dream.. and this one reincarnates Tattersail! It took a few of these scenes to get used to Kruppe...but now I live him. ALthough just like he is so slippery, its hard to get an idea of exactly what his power is...


message 5: by Sandra (last edited Mar 01, 2011 05:25AM) (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1059 comments Maggie wrote: "wow and another Kruppe dream.. and this one reincarnates Tattersail! It took a few of these scenes to get used to Kruppe...but now I live him. ALthough just like he is so slippery, its hard to get ..."

Well I figured Tattersail would be reincarnated anyway. No one seems to stay dead in this book. :) Maybe he dreams things into existence?


message 6: by Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos (new)

Maggie K | 1202 comments Mod
I think it is some kind of foretelling power, but as far as I have read it has never quite been explained. I am about to start Toll the Hounds though and he plays a big part in that book, so maybe there


message 7: by Shelley (new)

Shelley (shelley69) | 597 comments I've caught up with everyone...yay!...during my readings last night I was reminded of what an impact chapter 10 has on all the books to come, defiantly read it slowly! :)

Of important note Crone was the first to use the word "convergence", then Brood used it later in the same chapter, you can almost feel the coming convergence can't you?!

As far as Kruppe is concerned, he is a favorite of mine....You see SE true genius thru Kruppe! I have my own suspicions about him, to be sure he is not what he seems, but who is in this story!!


message 8: by Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos (new)

Maggie K | 1202 comments Mod
I also love our first action sequence here. The short little POVs make for some good tension building. We really see Kalam's talent here, and the assassins falling from the sky???? Really stimulating stuff...I am usually not a big fan of battles and such, but I like how SE does it.


message 9: by Amelia (new)

Amelia (narknon) | 523 comments Maggie wrote: "I also love our first action sequence here. The short little POVs make for some good tension building. We really see Kalam's talent here, and the assassins falling from the sky???? Really stimulat..."

That's something I've noticed too. He really does fighting scenes well. I cringe with pain as the different fighters get hurt. It really seems like I'm experiencing the pain with the characters.


message 10: by Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (last edited Mar 01, 2011 10:27PM) (new)

Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (captain_sir_roddy) My thoughts and comments on much of the third section of our read. I have endeavored to insert 'spoiler' protections at appropriate places in case you're not completely done reading this section. There is just tons of stuff happening here, and I can't possibly cover it all, but I do hope that each of you will ferret out things that we can discuss further.

Book Four is entitled, "Assassins" -- telling, eh what?

I love the first epigraph leading off Chapter 11--
"I dreamed a coin
with shifting face--
so many youthful visages
so many costly dreams,
and it rolled and rang
'round the gilded rim
of a chalice
made for gems"
Hmmm...seems like there could be some references to Oponn, Crokus, Paran, Kruppe's dreams, and quite possibly the elite of Darujhistan, especially one young lady, Challice D'Arle.

Chapter 11 is an important chapter. As a teaser, I'll tell you that we do pick this event up again in the third book, "Memories of Ice". So, do pay some attention to Kruppe's dream of the birth on the Rhivi Plain. It is quite important.

Whiskeyjack's discussion with Sorry later in the chapter is also important, and worth filing away. It relates back to her original possession by Cotillion (The Rope) on the Itko Kan coast road.

Chapter 12 leads off with Kruppe reading some old musty tome, and what does he hone in on, but the Crippled God--
"...and in the Calling Down to earth the God was Crippled, and so Chained in its place. In the Calling Down many lands were sundered by the God's Fists, and things were born and things were released. Chained and Crippled was this God and it bred caution in the unveiling of its powers. The Crippled God bred caution but not well enough, for the powers of the earth came to it in the end. Chained was the Crippled God, and so Chained was it destroyed. And upon this barren plain that imprisoned the Crippled God many gathered to the deed. Hood, gray wanderer of Death, was among the gathering, as was Dessembrae, then Hood's warrior--though it was here and in this time that Dessembrae shattered the bonds Hood held upon him."
The Crippled God is a focal point through all ten novels in the series, so I encourage you to re-read and think about this bit of writing.

And what did everyone think of Quick Ben's meeting with Shadowthrone? Wasn't that freaky and enlightening? Did you all figure out who Quick Ben is willing to give up to Shadowthrone?

The first epigraph leading off Book Five, the poem attributed to Silverfox, is another important bit of foreshadowing. File it away for safekeeping.

And then early in Chapter 14 we learn from Onos T'oolan that the Warren, the First Warren, Starvald Demelain, is the Warren of Dragons! Yikes! And we'll see the power of Starvald Demelain again before too long.

I am dying to know what folks thought about what happened out on the Plain with Toc the Younger, Captain Paran, and the puppet, Hairlock. That was some very serious s**t, wasn't it? Quick Ben became one of my very favorite characters in the series from this point forward! I loved what Quick Ben says at the seminal moment, (view spoiler)

What does everyone think happened to (view spoiler) Stay tuned.

The scene of Paran inside (view spoiler)

I think this is enough for now, and I am looking forward to your thoughts and observations! Cheers! Chris


message 11: by Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos (new)

Maggie K | 1202 comments Mod
Great points Chris-I also really liked the scene at the Phoenix Inn-where Sorry killed the guard that Crokus discovered, then he sees her sword is all bloody...and that Meese and Iralta decided to protect them both.
This is all further deepened when Sorry watches him sneak into Challice's room later and she lets him see her...I think maybe a bit of the young girl is leaking through Cotillion's mask?


message 12: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1059 comments Maggie wrote: "Great points Chris-I also really liked the scene at the Phoenix Inn-where Sorry killed the guard that Crokus discovered, then he sees her sword is all bloody...and that Meese and Iralta decided to ..."

It was shaken up a bit earlier when she was close to a magic surge - I've forgotten exactly what - but I thought it was interesting.


message 13: by Amelia (last edited Mar 02, 2011 12:02PM) (new)

Amelia (narknon) | 523 comments Christopher wrote: "My thoughts and comments on much of the third section of our read. I have endeavored to insert 'spoiler' protections at appropriate places in case you're not completely done reading this section. ..."

About Paran: (view spoiler)

And Toc, well, your hints give me hope that he is going to be around again sometime. (view spoiler)

Quick Ben is another very interesting characeter. Will we eventually learn more about him and his past? (view spoiler)


Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (captain_sir_roddy) Amelia wrote: "Christopher wrote: "My thoughts and comments on much of the third section of our read. I have endeavored to insert 'spoiler' protections at appropriate places in case you're not completely done re..."

Amelia, your questions are all very good ones. I think I can help you out, but I'm going to 'spoiler-protect' them, not only for your consideration, but for other readers as well.

1. Who did Paran speak with 'inside' Dragnipur (Rake's sword)? (view spoiler).

2. Did the Hounds, with Paran's help, escape imprisonment in Dragnipur? Answer is (view spoiler).

3. Does Paran receive benefits for rescuing the Hounds? (view spoiler).

4. About Toc the Younger--(view spoiler).

5. Will we learn more about Quick Ben and his use of his sorcery? (view spoiler)


message 15: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1059 comments Mercy. All very intriguing. I'll get back to it soon. Finishing another book, Downbelow Station, very exciting right now.)


message 16: by Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos (new)

Maggie K | 1202 comments Mod
Yes, the different things we find out about Rake's sword in this section...really big twist on killing someone eh?

and Paran seems to manage to do things to get the attention of the gods all the time doesn't he? I dont think even he can decide if that is good or bad...lol


Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (captain_sir_roddy) Maggie wrote: "Yes, the different things we find out about Rake's sword in this section...really big twist on killing someone eh?

and Paran seems to manage to do things to get the attention of the gods all the..."


Boy, do I agree with your observation, Maggie, that Paran is a 'lodestone' that draws the attention of the gods and ascendants. He draws them like a moth is drawn to a candle flame!


message 18: by Jason (new)

Jason (darkfiction) | 82 comments Maggie wrote: "wow and another Kruppe dream.. and this one reincarnates Tattersail! It took a few of these scenes to get used to Kruppe...but now I live him. ALthough just like he is so slippery, its hard to get ..."

That dream was creepy! I loved it. I also loved Kruppe's reaction to it, too. Made me laugh out loud.

I love Kruppe. He seems such a comical character for one who's obviously going to play a big role.


Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (captain_sir_roddy) Jason wrote: "Maggie wrote: "wow and another Kruppe dream.. and this one reincarnates Tattersail! It took a few of these scenes to get used to Kruppe...but now I live him. ALthough just like he is so slippery, i..."

Kruppe is truly one of the great characters in the series, and you will definitely get to spend a lot more time with the "round little man in the red jacket". You are also going to meet some other characters that are just as endearing and eccentric as Kruppe too.


message 20: by Jason (new)

Jason (darkfiction) | 82 comments I can't wait these coming characters. Erikson really excels with his characters, I think. There are so many of them, yet each and every one has a different personality and overall "feel" about them.


Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (captain_sir_roddy) Jason wrote: "I can't wait these coming characters. Erikson really excels with his characters, I think. There are so many of them, yet each and every one has a different personality and overall "feel" about them."

Jason, I am so glad that you are enjoying the series so far! Honestly, it only gets better, and better as you proceed. I truly do think that a big part of the overall success of this series is due to Erikson's characters. They really are quite like people we all know. They can be terribly ambiguous, at times good, and at other times bad, reflecting the full gamut of the human experience. One can almost see the differing perspectives on the 'great morality play' that is 'Life' through the eyes of the squad members of the Bridgeburners, Captain Paran, Adjunct Lorn, Kruppe, Murillio, Rallick, Crokus, and so on and so forth. Just some terrific character studies here!


message 22: by Amelia (last edited Mar 03, 2011 12:26PM) (new)

Amelia (narknon) | 523 comments Christopher wrote: "Amelia wrote: "Christopher wrote: "My thoughts and comments on much of the third section of our read. I have endeavored to insert 'spoiler' protections at appropriate places in case you're not com..."

Thanks for the answers. I'm really amazed at how much more I caught just from reading the first book twice. Guess I'll find out more when I continue and read more of the series.


message 23: by Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos (new)

Maggie K | 1202 comments Mod
Christopher wrote: "My thoughts and comments on much of the third section ...I am dying to know what folks thought about what happened out on the Plain with Toc the Younger, Captain Paran, and the puppet, Hairlock. That was some very serious s**t, wasn't it? "

I think this scene was a big 'hook' for me when I read it...it was just so jarring to have hin vanish, I was actually worried about him!


message 24: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1059 comments Maggie wrote: "it was just so jarring to have hin vanish, I was actually worried about him! ..."

LOL!


message 25: by Shelley (new)

Shelley (shelley69) | 597 comments Jason wrote: "I can't wait these coming characters. Erikson really excels with his characters, I think. There are so many of them, yet each and every one has a different personality and overall "feel" about them."

To add to this, I would say that Erikson has the ability to created some a the best friendships; Toc the Younger and Ganoes (Paran), Whiskyjack and One Arm, Fiddler and Hedge, Kalam and Quick Ben.... the list goes on and on!


Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (captain_sir_roddy) Shelley wrote: "Jason wrote: "I can't wait these coming characters. Erikson really excels with his characters, I think. There are so many of them, yet each and every one has a different personality and overall "fe..."

I couldn't agree with you more, Shelley! I love these relationships!


message 27: by Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos (new)

Maggie K | 1202 comments Mod
Another thing I feel he does really well is the infusion of humour. There will be some horrific battle or massacre (or crawling through underground tunnels) and some character will make some wry quip that is both hilarious yet realistic.


message 28: by Shelley (new)

Shelley (shelley69) | 597 comments You are SOOOO right Maggie, I do love SE's humor the best!! And for this reason "Midnight Tides" is my favorite book of the whole series! Tehol and Bugg's story line, friendship and EPIC humorous dialog was so refreshing! :)


message 29: by Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos (new)

Maggie K | 1202 comments Mod
I like that we find out the backstory re Coll's fall from grace, and thus why his friends have a plan in regard to Simtal...I think that whole concept of letting himself down by not fighting with her was a very human trait, and SE showed it very well.


Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (captain_sir_roddy) Maggie wrote: "I like that we find out the backstory re Coll's fall from grace, and thus why his friends have a plan in regard to Simtal...I think that whole concept of letting himself down by not fighting with h..."

Good point! I like Coll too, he's a complicated character with a good heart to be sure. I have honestly known people just like him too; who, after some terrible experience, have just fallen into alcohol or drugs. And like Coll, it really takes some galvanizing event to shake them out of their rut and cause them to rejoin society.


message 31: by Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos (new)

Maggie K | 1202 comments Mod
I am glad Alex-I truly love having the experience of having read these books...and it only gets better...this was his very first book, written about ten years before the rest of the series, so they really get stronger.


message 32: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1059 comments Well, I'm caught up.


message 33: by Jason (new)

Jason (darkfiction) | 82 comments Me, too. Finally! lol


message 34: by Shelley (new)

Shelley (shelley69) | 597 comments Alex wrote: "What a book!

The different story lines are becoming more familiar now, so the jumps between them aren't so harsh.

I was just reading this book up until now, but after this section I'm completely..."



I too am glad to hear this Alex! When you get done with the whole series and go back and reread Gardens, you will see what a masterpiece it is! Just know that there will always be little things you missed on your previous readings to discover.

I wanted to say that SE put in his acknowledgements for TCG a thank you to his readers for the long conversation "we've had" and what was three and a half million words between friends!! I love this sentiment and feel blessed for the 3 1/2 million words he has given us!!


message 35: by Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (last edited Mar 08, 2011 11:53AM) (new)

Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (captain_sir_roddy) Shelley wrote: "Alex wrote: "What a book!

The different story lines are becoming more familiar now, so the jumps between them aren't so harsh.

I was just reading this book up until now, but after this secti..."


Yeah, Shells, I loved that acknowledgment too! I have to tell you too, that I encountered a couple of those 'weepy' and emotional sections in TCG on the train this a.m. Man, this is a good book!


message 36: by Shelley (new)

Shelley (shelley69) | 597 comments Christopher wrote: "Shelley wrote: I wanted to say that SE put in his acknowledgements for TCG a thank you to his readers for the long conversation "we've had" and what was three and a half million words between friends!! I love this sentiment and feel blessed for the 3 1/2 million words he has given us!! "

I know Chris, I know!! I have teared up quit a few times too!!! When SE is done with me, I know I'm just going to sit back and be AWED!!


message 37: by Jason (new)

Jason (darkfiction) | 82 comments Shelley wrote: "When you get done with the whole series and go back and reread Gardens, you will see what a masterpiece it is! Just know that there will always be little things you missed on your previous readings to discover.

I'm sort of getting this idea. Although this second read through of Gardens makes the story a bit clearer for me, there are things, like all the foreshadowing to remember that leaves me somewhat lost and afraid that I'll forget something.

In a way, I can't wait until I'm where you are, at the end, just so I can see how it all connects.


Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (captain_sir_roddy) Jason wrote: "Shelley wrote: "When you get done with the whole series and go back and reread Gardens, you will see what a masterpiece it is! Just know that there will always be little things you missed on your p..."

Oh, Jason, it is so worth it! Just enjoy the ride, just enjoy the ride!


message 39: by Margot (last edited Mar 08, 2011 06:42PM) (new)

Margot (freezebaby) Maggie wrote: "wow and another Kruppe dream.. and this one reincarnates Tattersail! It took a few of these scenes to get used to Kruppe...but now I live him. ALthough just like he is so slippery, its hard to get an idea of exactly what his power is... "

Maggie, I totally agree. At first I wasn't so sure about Kruppe. But he really grows on you. I found a big part of the fun of this book was learning more and more about Krupple.


Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (captain_sir_roddy) Margot wrote: "Maggie wrote: "wow and another Kruppe dream.. and this one reincarnates Tattersail! It took a few of these scenes to get used to Kruppe...but now I live him. ALthough just like he is so slippery, i..."

Kruppe is another character that just grows and grows with the reader as you ferret out more clues about him. And his unique personality becomes quite endearing after a time. One quickly realizes that it is very worthwhile to pay attention to everything he says and does.


message 41: by Shelley (new)

Shelley (shelley69) | 597 comments Jason wrote: "In a way, I can't wait until I'm where you are, at the end, just so I can see how it all connects...."

And Jason, I in my way envy you! Getting to meet everyone for the first time, to be surprised by the twist and turns coming, and being left trying to figure out what the hell just happen...yeah I envy you! So keep reading and posting comments so I can relive these moments thru you all here! :)

Ummmm....but don't get me wrong, I've waited over 14 months to read TCG and I'm glad to be sitting here reading this most amazing book. :)


message 42: by Jason (new)

Jason (darkfiction) | 82 comments Shelley wrote: "Jason wrote: "In a way, I can't wait until I'm where you are, at the end, just so I can see how it all connects...."

And Jason, I in my way envy you! Getting to meet everyone for the first time..."


I know what you mean. I remember saying the exact same thing to someone who was just starting A Song of Ice and Fire a little while ago.

And I totally appreciate where I am. As Christopher suggested, I'm going to sit back and enjoy the ride!


message 43: by Shelley (new)

Shelley (shelley69) | 597 comments Oh yes A Song of Ice and Fire, great series except for the WAITING for the next book!! GRRM is killing me! :(


message 44: by Jason (new)

Jason (darkfiction) | 82 comments Yes, it's killing me too! Did you hear about the new release date, for July of this year? I wonder if he'll keep to that one? lol


message 45: by Shelley (new)

Shelley (shelley69) | 597 comments Jason wrote: "Yes, it's killing me too! Did you hear about the new release date, for July of this year? I wonder if he'll keep to that one? lol"

WHATTTTTTT?????????? Holy hell that's frigging AWESOME!!!! Geeeez I finished book four, four years ago now and I have been very impatiently waiting to find out what happens to Jon Snow!! Thanks for letting me know Jason!! Oh I can't wait for GoT to come out on HBO on 17 Apr!! Shells:)


message 46: by Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos (new)

Maggie K | 1202 comments Mod
I do not believe it for a second! lolol


Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (captain_sir_roddy) Maggie wrote: "I do not believe it for a second! lolol"

I agree with you, Maggie...Not until I actually see it sitting on the shelf in the bookstore will I even acknowledge that it has been published...and maybe, just maybe, I may buy a copy. I shudder to think how many years it will take for the next installment...


message 48: by Ryan (new)

Ryan Mclelland (theryanmc) | 6 comments I think this date will stick due to the HBO series. The fact that he only had 3 chapters to finish back in November is also a good sign.

The next books should actually be faster. This book and the last one were not totally planned in the original arc but were added because of continuity issues he saw when he started writing the 4th. The book after Dance should be faster. Hopefully.


message 49: by Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos (new)

Maggie K | 1202 comments Mod
naw, it won't. I could explain but I would just want to go find a Martin book to rip up. If it gets published on that date I will personally buy Christopher a copy, so he can keep it as a doorstopper wile we wait ten years for the next one.

Anyway-this is the Erikson thread Yay! We like him. He writes books.lol


message 50: by Shelley (new)

Shelley (shelley69) | 597 comments Maggie wrote: "naw, it won't. I could explain but I would just want to go find a Martin book to rip up. If it gets published on that date I will personally buy Christopher a copy, so he can keep it as a doorstopp..."

You are exactly right Maggie!!! I swear in the 11 years that SE has been releasing the Malazan series (3 1/2 million words) GRRM has released one book okay maybe two, the man is killing his readers and me most of all!

I think I respect SE MORE because he has written the whole series in very little time!! :)


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