City of Bones by Cassandra Clare (No Spoilers)

[Jim]

Discuss City of Bones by Cassandra Clare. No Spoilers, please! There is a topic for spoilers
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...
or use the Spoiler tags.

[spoiler][/spoiler] tags. (replace the [] square brackets with <> less/greater than signs to use or see help.)

[Terry (Ter05 TwiMoms/ MundieMoms)]

Looking forward to this discussion and the spoiler one too!

[Werner]

Hmmm! Am I the only one here who thinks Clary's mom is WAY negligent in letting her go out with just another 15-year-old for company, in New York City at night, depending on cabs for transportation, to a club (even if it is for "all ages")? I wouldn't have let any of my kids do that even in Bluefield, which is a far less dangerous city than the Big Apple!

[Terry (Ter05 TwiMoms/ MundieMoms)]

I would agree with that although I have never lived in a city. I think perhaps her mom was a little obsessed with the supernatural world she knows about and not paying much attention to the mortal world and it's dangers. Parents in YA books often seem a little illogical to me. But then parents in real life often aren't very logical or responsible either.

[[deleted user]]

Terry (Ter05 TwiMoms/ MundieMoms) wrote: "I would agree with that although I have never lived in a city. I think perhaps her mom was a little obsessed with the supernatural world she knows about and not paying much attention to the mortal..."

I would agree also but I used to do similar when I was a little older. One of my high school friends thought I was a dare-devil but I never thought that and just wanted to go dancing. I also thought I was very cautious. Maybe Clary felt the same. She does see things that others don't so its all different for her. Even her beau couldn't see the ones with powers.

[[deleted user]]

I forget her beau's name already...sigh. Read this two weeks ago.

[Terry (Ter05 TwiMoms/ MundieMoms)]

Simon! But then I have read it four times! LOL

Simon is totally human and can't see past the glamour. Getting back to Clary's mother, I think she has a lot of confidence in Simon taking care of Clary too.

And the Shadowhunters aren't immortal. They just have powers.

[[deleted user]]

Thanks you can tell I have only read it one time. (unlike Twilight which I have read 5 times and done the quiz even more!) ....LOL! I liked Simon very much. I think I can tell who he is going to end up with tho but don't want to spoil anything. Hope I am wrong.


Terry (Ter05 TwiMoms/ MundieMoms) wrote: "Simon! But then I have read it four times! LOL

Simon is totally human and can't see past the glamour. Getting back to Clary's mother, I think she has a lot of confidence in Simon taking care of ..."

[[deleted user]]

Thanks also for this reminder they are not immortal. I am not sure what to call them. At first I thought they were going to be vampires.

[Joan]

I'm on my last 150 or so pages. :) I like it, but I have to work so my reads are somehow cut into pieces.

Nevertheless, every time I start reading it, I get totally hooked.

[Werner]

Did anyone else appreciate Simon's allusion to A Tale of Two Cities near the beginning of Chapter 3? It's obvious that Clare, to her credit, is well-read; the epigraphs from Shakespeare (from which the series title comes) and Milton that preface the book itself and Part 1 are a nice touch, IMO.

Who else thinks that Jocelyn Fray is going to prove to be an ex-Shadowhunter herself? Or am I all wet? :-)

[[deleted user]]

Werner wrote: "Did anyone else appreciate Simon's allusion to A Tale of Two Cities near the beginning of Chapter 3? It's obvious that Clare, to her credit, is well-read; the epigraphs from Shakespeare (from which..."

You are right on target! Makes me wonder what page you are on? will go to your page so I can check.

[Werner]

I'm currently on p. 90. (Usually, I don't post what page of a book I'm on in my updates, unless I'm doing a buddy read; it clutters the updates too much, IMO.)

Speaking of updates, Alice, I recall that in one of yours, you indicated that you felt that when Clary hauled off and slapped Jace, she was out of line and rude. Interestingly, my reaction was just the reverse; I thought that (as Surak on Star Trek might have said :-) ), "The cause was sufficient," and I actually liked her better for it. If Jace was going to take a chance with her life, he should have asked for her permission, IMO; he comes across as too arrogant by half, and a good slap might prompt a needed attitude adjustment. How do the rest of you feel about that?

[Terry (Ter05 TwiMoms/ MundieMoms)]

I thought Clary was justified in slapping Jace. If you consider her state of mind just discovering all this crazy (to her) stuff, not really knowing him. The shock that he would take a chance on her life is pretty good justification.

In a no spoiler discussion, how do we know who has read what. Not sure how much to say on here.

[Werner]

Terry, good question! I'd say, just refrain from any comments that would prematurely reveal major plot developments or secrets, in cases where that would dash some reader's pleasure in anticipating/ speculating about the coming revelation in the author's own good time. For instance, talking about Clary slapping Jace is okay, because it's not a major plot point, and nobody was sitting around wondering if she would or she wouldn't. And speculating out loud about possible developments, like a possible Shadowhunter background for Jocelyn, is fine. But if someone were to read ahead to say, p. 250, and then drop the sudden bombshell comment, "WOW! Jocelyn was a Shadowhunter!" (or a demon, or a reincarnated Egyptian priestess, etc. --you get the idea :-) ) I'd say that would belong on the spoiler thread. (Or you could use Jim's technique for hiding parts of comments that could be spoilers.) Mostly, I'd say we can use a thread like this for comments like the above, or discussions of style, literary influences (I'd guess that Stephenie Meyer was a big one!), things the author does or doesn't do well, themes and messages, background information about the author or setting, etc. Does that help any?

[Terry (Ter05 TwiMoms/ MundieMoms)]

Okay, I got it. Funny, I don't see Stehenie Meyer as an influence on this book. It's just a whole different take on the teen/supernatural genre. It would be just as easy to say that L.J. Smith was an influence as some of her books are a bit more like these with multiple supernaturals in them/teens. And they came ten years before Twilight. I suppose they all influence each other in some ways unless the author has been living under a rock. There is just something totally unique about Cassandra Clare's writing that I have not found elsewhere. I notice it a lot with the audios too - I see it all unfolding like a movie in my mind and although that happens a bit in other books, not as much as this one.

[Werner]

Terry, where I saw the Meyer influence was in the teen heroine, who's somewhat klutzy at times, and who's drawn into a supernatural world she didn't previously know existed; a teen hero who comes across as somewhat dangerous, and who's physically described in leonine terms; the possibility of a romantic triangle (Clary-Jace-Simon); the wry humor; and a prose style that's direct and straightforward, and tells the story without calling attention to itself. Since Clare no doubt has read the work of many of her predecessors in the genre, you're surely right that all of them are shaping influences on her to one degree or another (not having read any of Smith's work myself, I can't pick out specific parallels here, but you pointed one out). None of that denies the elements in Clare's work that are uniquely hers; actually, I find the elaborate system of magical and near-magical creatures and their interactions that she creates here very original, as is the concept of the "runes" incised into the Shadowhunters' skin.

[Terry (Ter05 TwiMoms/ MundieMoms)]

Actually when you get down to it every YA paranormal book I have read has "Twilighty" aspects to it. Teen girl, paranormal boy, (a few the other way around),sometimes a mortal or less attractive supernatural for the triangle thing, keeping the supernatural stuff secret from the world....it is all there whether the supernaturals are fey, werewolves, vampires, witches, dragons morphing into humans, (hmmm what else is there?) The oldest ones I have read like this are Vampire Diaries and they have pretty much every supernatural I've named other than the dragons. But I am betting there is something written way before them. (I think 1994)

The thing I find I think the most intriguing about Cassandra Clare's writing is her style which I have no words for. Since I have read the series multiple times I am amazed at the little hints of things that are intwined throughout the series that I did not even notice the first time or even the second that I totally understand now. Had Jace and Clary had time during this adventure to really sit down and fit it all together, they might have figured out a lot more than they did until very late in the tale. I love that part of the books and ingenious of the author. She obviously had worked out every detail and I bet smiled when she snuck these hints in. And yes, the runes idea - very original. Of course she said she got that idea in a tattoo parlor! LOL

[[deleted user]]

Werner wrote: "I'm currently on p. 90. (Usually, I don't post what page of a book I'm on in my updates, unless I'm doing a buddy read; it clutters the updates too much, IMO.)

Speaking of updates, Alice, I recal..."

Yes, I remember that as its the point where I began to dislike her. If someone were trying to save my life I would never slap them for any reason! But then I have never slapped anyone but have been slapped by two women "friends" so I am more sensitive on this point.
Ever been slapped? how did you feel?

Oh, I don't have as many friends as you do so I can keep up easier. I know you can get overwhelmed fast with too much on goodreads.

[[deleted user]]

Terry (Ter05 TwiMoms/ MundieMoms) wrote: "Okay, I got it. Funny, I don't see Stehenie Meyer as an influence on this book. It's just a whole different take on the teen/supernatural genre. It would be just as easy to say that L.J. Smith ..."

I am with you as I didn't see this book as being anything like Stephenie Meyer but I miss lots of stuff that Werner picks up on. Now I believe I have read one L.J. Smith book so could you post the title? I seem to recall titles better at times.

[Terry (Ter05 TwiMoms/ MundieMoms)]

L.J. Smith wrote Vampire Diaries and the Night World books and then several others. I think most of them are on my reviews. I like most of her books except for the last most recent Vampire Diaries ones. They have a lot of Twilight similarities but were written ten years earlier. Of course I say similarities as they are certainly not the same.

[Werner]

Alice, I basically agree with you that being slapped would make a person feel badly, and that it's not the form of communication I'd generally recommend for folks to use. No, I've never been slapped (unless it was as a kid, that I don't recall clearly). I can understand why you're sensitive on that point, and I don't blame you. (Though I'd say the psychological and ethical factors aren't always the same in every slapping situation.)

Yes, there is a TV series based on The Vampire Diaries; I haven't watched it, though I used to watch (and liked) some episodes of Forever Knight when it was syndicated in this area. (On another group, it was mentioned that the producers ended that show in a horrible way: in the final season, they killed off every sympathetic character, with Nicholas finally committing suicide in the end.) I think both series have been mentioned over on the "Movies and TV" thread.

[Terry (Ter05 TwiMoms/ MundieMoms)]

Vampire Diaries (VERY loosely based on the books) on TV is the only show I watch except Merlin. Yes, Werner, Forever Knight ended in a way that it could never be brought back. I knew that before watching it (DVD's from NetFlix) but somehow the way it was done was okay with me.
Back to the slap, if you found out a guy you hardly knew had saved your life but in so doing had risked your dying by his hand, you just might react on impulse. For a girl, a slap might just be a reflex to the emotions that went through her.

[[deleted user]]

Werner wrote: "Alice, I basically agree with you that being slapped would make a person feel badly, and that it's not the form of communication I'd generally recommend for folks to use. No, I've never been slapp..."

Very glad I didn't see the final episode of Forever Knight then, thanks for the warning in case I find copies of it at Cracker Barrel sometime.

[[deleted user]]

Terry (Ter05 TwiMoms/ MundieMoms) wrote: "Vampire Diaries (VERY loosely based on the books) on TV is the only show I watch except Merlin. Yes, Werner, Forever Knight ended in a way that it could never be brought back. I knew that before ..."

I seriously doubt I would react on impulse in that situation altho I am very implusive. It would take lots to make me slap someone. I never have and I have been very provoked quite often. I have dumped a drink on a few people who deserved it.

[Terry (Ter05 TwiMoms/ MundieMoms)]

One must remember when reading YA books that these are teens and not adults. They do a lot more things on impulse! LOL And none of us have ever experienced our mother being kidnapped and maybe dead, the discovery that there are real live demons that exist, been attacked by one, can't go back home so have no home....who knows what we would do. A slap is pretty mild under that much newly discovered information.

When reading YA, I often have to remind myself that these are teens and some of the things they do and how they react are different than an adult would act under the same circumstances. It helps keep me from being irritated with the characters. People have continually criticized Bella (getting off topic here maybe) for her decisions but remembering myself at that age, I can identify. As I told a friend who criticizes her for making all the wrong decisions - if she made the right ones there would be no story.

And to get farther off topic, there are three seasons of Forever Knight and it would be easy to watch all but the last episode. I thought about doing that but watched it anyway. It's a really good series. If it weren't so expensive I would buy it.

[[deleted user]]

Terry (Ter05 TwiMoms/ MundieMoms) wrote: "One must remember when reading YA books that these are teens and not adults. They do a lot more things on impulse! LOL And none of us have ever experienced our mother being kidnapped and maybe d..."

Good point! I often forget about the YA thing so needed the reminder. That is me.....OFF Topic about all the time. sigh...
I have moved over to the other thread as I probably will say something that is a major spoiler without thinking.
Brain fog here as usual.

[Werner]

Judging by Jace's and Alec's reactions, the insistence that they can't and don't "do" magic is a key part of the Shadowhunters' self-understanding --but it's clear that they use a very elastic definition of "do" to maintain it. They admittedly use magical tools, draw runes that have magical effects, and employ magical glamours to disguise the real appearance of things; and the Clave can cast curses. I'd say their use of magic is much more active than they admit to themselves. (That's not a criticism --just an observation!)

Clare makes one slip that I caught (on p. 158 of the paperback edition), where she has Clary say to Jace, referring to the Silent Brothers, "...you said they were librarians." Actually, I went over their prior conversations pretty carefully, and can't find any place where he said that. But that's a minor flaw!

[Terry (Ter05 TwiMoms/ MundieMoms)]

I don't remember them being described as librarians either. I really don't remember them being discussed prior to that part although I think they are mentioned without any explanation. I think their reference to not using magic means they themselves are not magical like a sorcerer/warlock who is able to summon magic for healing or to throw balls of fire, etc. But obviously there is a very fine line!

[Werner]

How are you all reacting (so far) to the various characters that Clare has created here? Hodge reminds me in some ways of Rupert Giles on Buffy, the Vampire Slayer (maybe because we first meet him in a library :-) ).

As Terry pointed out above, most of these characters are teens, not adults. That's not usually a problem for me in fiction, and it isn't here; I relate differently to the characters than I would to adults, but I can understand and like (or dislike) them without being put off by the age factor. Though he has some major differences from me, I can see some real similarity between Simon and myself at his age, so I suppose I sort of identify with him. I'm liking Clary; she's got her faults, but for a girl on the cusp of 16, who's been confronted with what she has, I think that in the main she's handling it with guts and good grace. And I also kind of like Isabelle; I can see why some people might not, but with a few more years of maturity, I think she might grow into a pretty impressive woman. (That's just me!)

Jace is one character I'm not liking all that much. I know he deserves allowances for the horrible way he was raised, and the trauma he went through at age 10 that nobody should have experienced at any age. And I give him full respect for his bravery and fighting ability. But his psychological damage gives him a lot of unlovely qualities, including arrogance and a willingness to hurt and put down others at times; I can feel compassion for him over that, but he's hard to like. (Female readers, I suppose, might react to him differently --perhaps more like Clary does. :-) .)

[Terry (Ter05 TwiMoms/ MundieMoms)]

I am afraid that female readers DO react differently to Jace. LOL There is something about the cocky beautiful warrior that has a certain appeal although we probably would not enjoy living with someone like that. He is one of those book characters that I and my granddaughters are all in love with (and a lot of my friends of all ages). But then we all are in love with Damon on Vampire Diaries too, but certainly not alone in that. Some of it is that although Jace has that smart aleck exterior it is obvious that he cares deeply for Clary - more so than he ever has for anything or anyone in his short life. I know this is jumping all over the place but I have read the prequel to these books, Clockwork Angel where Cassandra Clare has brought us two more boys in a bit of a triangle. In that book (granted the "rest of the story" is yet to be told), one of them is just too over the top cruel to the girl in the story and that turns me off.

Actually my brother and my sons like Jace when I think about it but not sure how they felt just from this first book.

[Werner]

True, we can tell that Jace is attracted to Clary in a way that's more than physical. He's willing to stick his neck out for her (though for someone who revels in danger like he does, that's not as much of a sacrifice as it would be for most people), and he does at times go out of his way to do something nice for her. Those moments are when he comes across as at his most endearing, and I temporarily stop wanting to box his ear. :-)

[Danielle The Book Huntress]

Sorry to be late to the discussion. I read this one last year, and I enjoyed it a lot. I wasn't that into the romance elements, but I enjoyed the fantasy aspects. I liked the interesting world that Clare created. This book had some twists and turns that really threw me for a loop. I plant to read the rest of the series.

[[deleted user]]

Terry (Ter05 TwiMoms/ MundieMoms) wrote: "I am afraid that female readers DO react differently to Jace. LOL There is something about the cocky beautiful warrior that has a certain appeal although we probably would not enjoy living with s..."

I liked Jace much better than Clare but I never felt in love with him at all. He reminds me right now a little of Raphael the angel in Angels Blood which I am just reading. I agree with you about the warrior types..you are right on target. When I was in my early twenties I dated many pilots and they were very arrogrant. We used to make jokes about it.

I did not like Damon at all in Vampire Diaries. I cannot really tell you why tho. None of these people appeal to me like Bella and Edward do. Two male characters who really appealed to me in books were Gus in Lonesome Dove and Poldark in those novels. They were tough guys but had hearts. Not as messed up as poor Edward who I think has some severe mental problems due to being a vampire. Jace may have some mental problems too. What do you think?

I generally like really nice female heroines like Bella and also Werner's vampire..she is super nice and considerate of most everyone.

I have been very worried today about the earthquake so hoping that I make some sense. I really need something to take my mind off it all. (son and DIL in Japan)

[Werner]

I do think that Jace has significant psychological hangups, due to his rearing and childhood trauma. He seriously believes that to love somebody is to weaken and destroy them, so he represses loving feelings like the plague; he probably has survivor's guilt in spades stemming from the death of his father, which explains his general recklessness as an unconscious death wish, and his grief over that tragedy has corroded into deep cynicism and grudge-holding towards the universe. (And then there's his arrogance as defense mechanism, and his messed-up attitude toward girls as nothing but sex objects.)

I've suggested before that there are certain commonalities in the portrayals of Jace and Edward Cullen; but I'd have to say that I don't think the latter really has psychological problems like this. To me, he actually comes across as pretty well-adjusted, and able to come to psychological terms with his vampirism without it warping the essentially kind and ethically-minded person that he is. Compared to Jace, he's a model of stability, IMO.

Thanks for your kind words about my vampire heroine, Ana. Yes, one local radio host who liked my book said, "She's the nicest vampire you'll ever meet; you could have her babysit your kids!" :-)

[[deleted user]]

I didn't realize that Jace thought of girls as just sex objects but it seems to be a very common attitude today. Its one thing I like about Edward Cullen in that he really has a conscience. Things really bother him and he thinks about them deeply which is why I wish Stephenie Meyer would be able to finish her book on his viewpoint. I think Edward was very messed up when he thought he could save Bella by leaving her. He didn't think things over very well. But at least he was really THINKING. Most of the characters in these books lately just run around madly being very physical and not a thought in their heads it seems to me.

You are right, he is a model of stability compared to Jace.

[Terry (Ter05 TwiMoms/ MundieMoms)]

I am probably messed up on this thread because I have read all the books so many times. And listened to the audio books. It's hard for me to remember just where COB left off and COA started and just finished listening to COA on audio. Jace was messed up about love due to his father, but then Clary has given him something he thought was gone - caring more about a person than himself or anyone else. He does love Alec and Isabell though - even though they have that sibling thing going on where they give each other a hard time. Not to mention he is oblivious to how Alec feels about him. So have any of you read this entire book or past it or just reading it now?

[[deleted user]]

Terry (Ter05 TwiMoms/ MundieMoms) wrote: "I am probably messed up on this thread because I have read all the books so many times. And listened to the audio books. It's hard for me to remember just where COB left off and COA started and j..."

Hi Terry, I read this book in Feb. I thought it was just a few weeks ago but I looked back and it was actually Feb 7th that I finished it. I really should have waited and read it with the group.

[Werner]

Terry, I'm just reading it now. I'm up to p.368. (As far as I can tell, none of your comments have messed up at all; keep 'em coming!)

Alice, the clearest indication in the text so far of Jace's (poor) attitude towards girls was the lines, "...he wasn't sure he had ever wanted to hurt a girl before. Usually he just wanted them [i.e., sexually] and then [after sex] wanted them to leave him alone."

[Terry (Ter05 TwiMoms/ MundieMoms)]

Okay. This is hard because I know so much more about Jace. You are coming up on some big stuff that sets up for the next book. I have been listening to the audio books when driving (which is a lot of short trips so takes awhile) and although I thought after multiple times of reading them that the third book was the best one but now I am not so sure City of Ashes isn't my favorite. But obviously getting ahead of "us". I think COB is really showing us what Jace has been in the past and just a glimpse of what made him that way - the cruel father and yet that father being the only person he had to love, then the kindness of the Lightwoods but yet not quite belonging. I think he felt those years with them that he had to prove himself and just did not quite do it. I don't remember which book it is in, but is it in this one where he talks about listening to Alec and Isabel's mother singing to them at night through the wall of his room but she never sang to him. There are a lot of things that made Jace what he is, but there is a lot more to him than a cocky warrior kid.

[[deleted user]]

Thanks for those lines Werner! I laughed! I have already forgotten so much of the book. Its terrible anymore how quickly I forget stuff. I should have waited to read it along with the group.

[[deleted user]]

Terry, Someone said in a review that City of Ashes was better. I like it when a series improves. I think the Sookie Stackhouse series is like that as it just gets better and better.

[Terry (Ter05 TwiMoms/ MundieMoms)]

I basically feel each book in this series gets better and better. City of Ashes is great and probably the second half of City of Glass is the very best. Once you get into this series there are a lot of little hints along the way that I basically missed the point the first time I read them. Each time I read them I discover other things I "should have noticed" but not knowing their significance I just didn't pay attention.

[Werner]

Terry, if Jace makes that comment about Alec and Isabelle's mother singing to them in this book, it's in a part that's further on from where I am. But it was mentioned that his mother died when he was born, so he never knew her love; and you can readily understand how seeing what the Lightwood kids had with their mom would make him really miss that. I'm sure that Clare will have his character develop and grow a lot in the course of the trilogy, through what he'll experience.

[Terry (Ter05 TwiMoms/ MundieMoms)]

Well, then I did a spoiler but hope it is a minor one. I could not remember which book he talked about that in. It may be in COA.

[[deleted user]]

Terry (Ter05 TwiMoms/ MundieMoms) wrote: "Well, then I did a spoiler but hope it is a minor one. I could not remember which book he talked about that in. It may be in COA."

OK by me as I never mind spoilers.

[Werner]

No, Terry, something like that isn't a spoiler; it's just a minor detail that illuminates something about a character. Now, if you'd written, "Hey, at the end of the trilogy, Clary ends up with Alec, Jace marries Jocelyn, Simon elopes with a pretty demon who wants to reform, and Isabelle enters a convent," that would pretty much constitute a spoiler. (As well the weirdest ending in the history of fiction, but it serves to illustrate the distinction. :-) )

[Terry (Ter05 TwiMoms/ MundieMoms)]

Oh, that would be quite the ending - glad it doesn't happen!

[Werner]

Me, too! (I figured I'd come up with the most far-fetched ending I could as an example, so that no one could mistake it for an actual spoiler! :-) )

[Terry (Ter05 TwiMoms/ MundieMoms)]

Having read all three books I can assure you that none of these things happen! But some surprising things do happen - which of course is the fun of it.