Fans of The Hollows series by Kim Harrison discussion

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MAJOR Pale Demon spoiler.....but I have to ask your opinion!

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message 1: by Dana (new)

Dana (erato) | 27 comments I think we may have just seen the resolution of one of the series major issues but I want some other folks to weigh in on this.

The fact that Rachel is supposed to find some magical way to save Ivy's soul when she dies has been a huge stumbling block for her. She reset Jenk's lifespan so that was a 'one down, one to go' kind of moment. Saving Ivy's soul however, has been the monkey on her back.

So, if you have read Pale Demon, you know that Trent removed Rachel's soul from her body, (her body still functioned normally AND healed), and successfully placed her soul back.

Sooooo....the question is, why wouldn't this work for all vamps? If you removed Ivy's soul, killed her to be reborn as 'dead' vamp (or just removed it quickly if she were dying like Rachel), and then put her soul back, wouldn't she then be a true vampire with a soul. Hence, capable of emotion and friendship after death? Trent can do this!

Even more interesting is Rachel's newfound ability to house a soul inside her. This looks to me like another way to save Ivy. If Rachel was to 'shelter' Ivy's soul while her body died, then she returned as a true vamp, then Reachel replaced the soul to her body she would be in the same situation as above, right?

These are both looking a lot like a resolution to a BIG Rachel problem! What do you all think?


VampireNovelFan | 489 comments I think you're right on. I think people were onto that idea in BMS when Rachel first noticed the soul in the bottle. There may be a way male demons can do it without housing a soul within themself first, so we'll see!


message 3: by Tracy (new)

Tracy (tracyw) | 22 comments I think you're right on too. What's interesting is that Trent says he's been reading up on this for 6 months and practising on birds! Was he doing it for Rachel and Ivy? It feels to me that he only started to fall in love with Rachel during PD. Hmm..


VampireNovelFan | 489 comments I think he was studying up all he could for this quest, preparing for anything that could go wrong. As he told Rachel in Vegas, "you think Ivy's a planner? She's got nothing on an a motivated elf with too much money." :P. I love that line, haha.


message 5: by Dana (new)

Dana (erato) | 27 comments PD was a great peek 'into the mind of Trent' for sure. I liked the fact that Kim still made sure he was his annoying self most of the time before she let him act like a reasonably friendly individual. It would have felt forced in any other way. :)

One thing though that jumped out at me in favor of the concept that Trent has been doing nice things for Rachel is that at the end of PD, he admits that he has been working with David to get rid of her lawsuits before the new 'we're friends' aspect showed up in this installment.

I had forgotten about the bottled soul from BMS, good reference! Although, I don't think that male demons can do this. Al himself was nervous about the bottle because he got it from Newt. I think he was nervous because he knew if it was him or any other demon, it could only be an aura. With Newt it could be an aura OR a soul. Still a guess, but I think it fits.

Thanks for the comments. The worst part of a new release is that I just want more the minute I'm done. *sigh*


message 6: by VampireNovelFan (last edited Feb 25, 2011 06:07PM) (new)

VampireNovelFan | 489 comments I forgot that he got it from Newt, so you're probably right.

I think Trent's changes started with Book 7 when he gave her the Pandora charm. That seemed like a step. And I also liked how Kim didn't make him do an instant 180 here. We know there are a million sides to Trent. We've seen that from jump (though it really started to show in Book 2 and 3), but it helped getting frequent doses of it here.

And I'm actually pretty sated since I know we're years from an end. I just liked what went down in general here, especially the end. So I'll enjoy that till Kim yanks it away in Book 10, lol.


message 7: by Dana (new)

Dana (erato) | 27 comments Oh! I'm so jealous of your zen patience!

I'm always this way after a major turning point in a series. I really should find a way to curb my inner zealot. When a story has clifhangers but you have strong ideas of the jumping off points for plot in the next book, I find I am a bit better at waiting. (i.e., Kisten dies so in the next books we will find his murderer)

When you have these big changes like we saw in PD, I get antsy, urgh! Oh well, anticipation is half the fun right? :)

And you are right, I should probably enjoy the status quo for the 12ish months that I can enjoy it! Who knows what Kim will do next?


VampireNovelFan | 489 comments Dana wrote: "Oh! I'm so jealous of your zen patience!

I'm always this way after a major turning point in a series. I really should find a way to curb my inner zealot. When a story has clifhangers but you hav..."


Well I wasn't that patient for Book 9 since I was so desperate I ebayed an ARC for a ridiculous price, haha. But I know there's a chance things will never be quite this good so I'll bask in it for now, lol.


message 9: by Dana (last edited Feb 26, 2011 11:40AM) (new)

Dana (erato) | 27 comments ...Dana pulls up a chaise lounger, hands VampireNovelFan a Mai Tai, and says...


Let's bask baby! lol


BTW, how soon before the 'release' date can you get an ARC? Do you mind if I ask how much it cost you on Ebay? I really don't know anything about them other than what the acronym means. :)


message 10: by Tracy (last edited Feb 26, 2011 02:09PM) (new)

Tracy (tracyw) | 22 comments My favourite scene - when Trent's getting dressed for the quest, she's ogling him and he's teasing her. Rachel: "You should wear thief more often." Ha! Loved it.

Yours?


message 11: by VampireNovelFan (last edited Feb 26, 2011 02:42PM) (new)

VampireNovelFan | 489 comments @Dana: I'll PM you about it ~_^.

@Tracy: I loved his reply, "how do you know I don't?" That's definitely one of my favorites (it's really hard to choose). I went back to read that one a million times. Rachel had it right, "Damn it, seeing him getting dressed was almost more tantalizing than seeing him getting undressed might be." I think I read that one as much as their kissing scene. I think I read those even more than the shower scene or the shirtless car scene since he actually caught her doing it, and then totally ran with it.I also found it highly amusing that Jenks was there next to him in the mirror primping and Rachel was wondering if there was hero worship going on.


message 12: by Kenna (new)

Kenna (kennas) | 76 comments This contains spoilers!!!

I have been avoiding this thread like the plague until I was sure that most of us had read the book. I have a few things to say about it...

(view spoiler)

And that is what I think about that.


message 13: by Dana (last edited Feb 26, 2011 07:28PM) (new)

Dana (erato) | 27 comments Kenna wrote: "This contains spoilers!!!

...not fond of the whole "Trent is a babydaddy" scenario. Its kinda creepy that he had sex with the elfladypersonthing he almost married. I guess that I thought since he was an elf and they did things the old fashioned way that they wouldnt have done that till after the wedding.


ROFL! elfladypersonthing! That is fantastic. :)

Sorry about sticking the spoiler thread in! I know how hard it is to stay away until you are done. "No one can eat just one, no one caaaannnn...." It is really tempting. Bad me, no cookie!

I was completely caught off guard by the father aspect as well. Did NOT see that coming. I'm cool with it for Trent, but I'm with you about his partner. My brain said, "Eeeewwwwww!" and I did a little mental gag on the matter. I should admit though that the whole premarital elf-love thing didn't really shock me since that is one of the heavily Christian mores. Elves may come off as high class individuals, but they are the only race we have been introduced to (if memory serves) that use wild magic. It says something about their inner tendencies to me. *wink* Frankly it bodes well for repeats of the Rachel/Trent soul-returning kiss moment. Ahhh, I can't wait.

Really good point about the Al/Pierce relationship. You can bet your last dollar that when they let him back into the fold so to speak, they didn't know that he was a demon familiar/captive. I don't like it at all that he is on the council. He'll mess it up for Rachel, even more than he has already. Just wait.

Is it only me that thinks it strange that no one questioned how he was 'living' again? He stood right there and said he had been bricked into the ground years ago and then conversation just goes on? That was an elephant in the room if you ask me.

Another thought on that topic is that Pierce is dead. And it might not even be Al that killed him. Every demon out there was 7 levels of jazzed about Rachel's existence. It could have been a demon version of a lynching. Also, Newt had essentially just found another sister after 5000 years of waiting. I bet she was wicked pissed! She could have put Pierce's soul in a bottle, squashed him like a bug, or he could belong to Newt herself now. *shiver*

Funny, I though the same thing about Jenks and Belle myself. I had fleeting thoughts about Jenks finding another pixie woman, but figured that he would just never be able to 'go there'. Whether it is romantic with Belle or not, I think it will be good for him. Who knows? Maybe that will be another aspect of the Jenks legacy? He can help overcome the pixie/faerie hostility?

So many new aspects...very exciting!


message 14: by VampireNovelFan (last edited Feb 26, 2011 10:18PM) (new)

VampireNovelFan | 489 comments @Kenna: I have been pondering Al's reaction as well. I'm a huge fan of the Kill Bill movies, so my initial reaction was be was going to pull a "Bill", mourning his "Kiddo", and then it's gonna get ugly when he finds out she's alive and well. But Al seems to put a lot of value into "genetic material," so I don't think he'll try to kill her or anything. Kick her ass around a little? Maybe. But I think he'll be glad above all. If anybody's gonna really get, it'd be Pierce.

I wanna know if Al is keeping Trent's fingers or tossed them to creepy crawlies for the fun of it.

I would like to see how Trent's new and improved demon mark will be put to work. I remember reading that the mark was transformed so that now he'll have to come to her aide whenever she needs it or something.

@Dana: I was also totally shocked when I saw the word "Daddy" on the page. Blew. My. Mind. And my reaction was the same as Rachel "Trent and Ellasbeth did the nasty? Ewwww." Loved that line too. I am thinking they just figured that since they were getting married anyway, there was no time like the present to get going on baby-making. They didn't love each other before the "I do's" and wouldn't have afterward, so what would it matter?

Good question about them not questioning Pierce living. Kim refers to him being in future books, so unfortunately I don't think we're done with him. I'm also really interested in seeing how Newt would have been impacted.

I thought that Belle and Bis kinda had something going on actually.


message 15: by Dana (last edited Feb 27, 2011 12:24AM) (new)

Dana (erato) | 27 comments Ahhhh, VNF! With the fingers...gah! I'm going to bed shortly and now I'm going to dream about Trent's fingers. Eeek!

The demon mark thing will be interesting. Question: Aren't the demon marks registered with the 'collective'? If Rachel is dead, shouldn't she show up as dead? You think that is what Trent's band does...register her as dead? Like would her summoning name still work? I'm wondering if Trent knew to include his new mark in the magic then. He doesn't know about the remaining link they have, and if it is something that should have disappeared when Rachel died but is still around, that could tip them off that she is still 'above ground'. Hhhmmm....

Am I a bad person for not wanting Pierce to show up again? I've never really liked Pierce. Other than being handy for illustrating how witches really do the sex-power-pull-thing, I was never keen on him. That and he had sex with Rachel once, told her her could love her, and then called her a whore for saving Al? What a butthead!

I love how you phrased Lucy's conception...get going on baby-making.... Like it's part of a list...do the dishes, make a baby, pick up Rx at the pharmacy...hehe. With Trent's pragmatic outlook, it probably was that way! lol

I know what you mean about Bell and Bis..it was hinted? at. But...can Belle and Bis do that? I know 'procreation' isn't the only foundation for a relationship, but that has Great Dane/Chihuahua written all over it. :)


message 16: by VampireNovelFan (last edited Feb 27, 2011 07:48AM) (new)

VampireNovelFan | 489 comments Kim did a reading of the shower scene, rofl:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhlgsp...

@Dana: I am still wondering which ones he lost. I've asked Kim. I know she said today is a travel day so I hope she doesn't miss it but I can always just post it again.

I am not exactly sure how the demon thing works, but Al said he couldn't bring Trent back even after seeing Rachel "dead". Though maybe because she was still technically breathing, Trent was still okay.

I was able to bare Pierce a *little* more this time around, but he's definitely not a favorite. I wouldn't miss his presence at all.

Oh I am pretty sure it was that way for them, lol. He admitted he wasn't in love with her. I don't know about anybody else, but I keep picturing Kristen Bell when I think of Ellasbeth. I like the actress, but I feel like she'd be perfect for that role.

As or Bell and Bis. I know what you mean about the Dane/Chihuahua thing, but maybe they'll just express their love other ways?


message 17: by Ally (new)

Ally (allycats86) | 25 comments Kenna wrote: "This contains spoilers!!!

I have been avoiding this thread like the plague until I was sure that most of us had read the book. I have a few things to say about it...

[spoilers removed]

And that ..."


Kenna wrote: "This contains spoilers!!!

I have been avoiding this thread like the plague until I was sure that most of us had read the book. I have a few things to say about it...

[spoilers removed]

And that ..."


You make a good point about Pierce. His big mouth got her into more trouble with the coven, so the same thing will probably happen with the demons. Then again, I could see Nick telling the demons as well. After all, he still has al's mark, and I wouldn't put it past him to tell Al in exchange for getting the mark removed. Either way, Rachel isn't going to be able to hide for long.


message 18: by Dana (new)

Dana (erato) | 27 comments Nick, that troll! You are right...Nick is slime and would do it for gain. At least Pierce would just do it by being a dope!

Anyone remember where Nick is? I think I have tried to block out his existence.

So, here's a thought. Now that Trent is not Rachel's familiar, she needs one right? Wouldn't it just be superb if she made Nick her familiar? I think the only person she dislikes enough to ever embrace (and actually use) that whole 'demon with a human familiar thing' is with Nick.

And boy, does he have it coming!


message 19: by Kenna (new)

Kenna (kennas) | 76 comments Speaking of familiars... I hope that with Pierce and Rachel gone that Al remembersn to feed Mr Fish. He is affer all the only thing Al has left of Rachel at the moment.

Am I the only one who thought the scene where Al and Rachel make out was Hot? I kinda feel like a mental case for that but after all that happened it seemed as right as Rache and Trent does. :/


message 20: by VampireNovelFan (last edited Feb 27, 2011 04:11PM) (new)

VampireNovelFan | 489 comments I wasn't quite as into their kiss. But I did moreso enjoy what happened after the coven-con when she was sent to the ever after and he was in her mind, offered her his room, tried to figure out what he looked like, etc.


message 21: by Dana (last edited Feb 27, 2011 02:50PM) (new)

Dana (erato) | 27 comments Kenna wrote: "Am I the only one who thought the scene where Al and Rachel make out was Hot? I kinda feel like a mental case for that but after all that happened it seemed as right as Rache and Trent does.
..."


Nope, it's not just you. I know what you mean about feeling a little mental. I have had the same issue because I have always thought the she would end up 'with' Al or at least very close and really good friends. Everyone has always thought I was weird. Seriously though, she's a demon guys! Who else should she end up with? It is more normal that she does end up with Al if you think about it that way. She's gone through the:

vampire/demon
witch/demon
reincarnated black witch/demon

combos so far.

Now Trent is elf/demon

And Al would be the only demon/demon

Kim has said that she doesn't see Rachel ending up with Al, but what's with all the recent references to Al's 'manliness' if not for that being a possibility? I smell potential misdirection my friends. :)

The thing is that biologically, it would be Al. Trent would be the mental choice I think. 'Friend' since camp, etc.


message 22: by Ally (new)

Ally (allycats86) | 25 comments I have to agree. And even if she doesn't end up with Al, I think they'll still have a close relationship. After all, Al is really the only demon she trusts. He's willing to work with her, even if he does hate all those damn lists. :)


message 23: by Dana (new)

Dana (erato) | 27 comments I forgot to mention the first combo...

human/demon

Although I think calling Nick a human is a BIG stretch!

Rachel has a very diverse dating calendar,eh? :)


message 24: by ☻Nikki☻ (new)

☻Nikki☻ C (nikkic1998) Whew...I finally got to finish it. Did anyone else think there was waaaaaay too much going on in this book?? I enjoyed it but I honestly felt like she had no downtime whatsoever. It was one crisis after another. I'll have to give myself a little time to think back and see how I really feel about it.

(view spoiler)

Wow...I still can't believe that we have to wait another year.


message 25: by VampireNovelFan (last edited Feb 28, 2011 10:26PM) (new)

VampireNovelFan | 489 comments Oh and Kim said Trent lost his right pinky and ring fingers. Looked like Al was starting small and working his way up. The thumb and index fingers are more important so at least he can still write.

She also said that Rachel does not have a smiley face mark like Trent does.


message 26: by Dana (last edited Feb 28, 2011 11:13PM) (new)

Dana (erato) | 27 comments You know what I thought was telling about how Trent feels for Rachel? The fact that he got his fingers chopped off but played it off as 'just stuff that happened' while saving her life.

Normally he would be all over Rachel for the loss of something very dumb and trying to kill her for (insert selfish Trent motive here). But losing part of his elf-self? Trent is speaking in ALL CAPS here it seems. Or I can at least hope, right?

I think, in the end, Trent is my choice for Rachel. Like a train wreck though, I must look, and I just need to know how a Rachel/Al thing would go. Call it morbid fascination about the future of demon-kind.

Book-dork question: Is Trent left or right handed?


message 27: by VampireNovelFan (new)

VampireNovelFan | 489 comments Dana wrote: "You know what I thought was telling about how Trent feels for Rachel? The fact that he got his fingers chopped off but played it off as 'just stuff that happened' while saving her life.

Normally..."


Yeah, that's definitely what I've been saying. He's certainly grown up to risk life and limb (literally) for her.

I wouldn't mind some Ral, though I'm another Trench HEA gal.

I think I read somewhere that Trent's ambidextrous.


message 28: by Tracy (new)

Tracy (tracyw) | 22 comments ☻Nikki☻ wrote: "My thoughts on Trent & Ellsbeth - there was no love in their relationship from the beginning. It was a mutual agreement to further the elf race...."

That's why I thought maybe Lucy was a test-tube baby since Trent is all into genetic research but Kim said no, Trent and Ellsbeth did do the nasty.


message 29: by VampireNovelFan (new)

VampireNovelFan | 489 comments Tracy wrote: "☻Nikki☻ wrote: "My thoughts on Trent & Ellsbeth - there was no love in their relationship from the beginning. It was a mutual agreement to further the elf race...."

That's why I thought maybe Lucy..."


So that was YOU who asked, haha. I saw that comment and laughed. Hey, Trent's still a guy and he's got needs. Most aren't gonna pass that up.


message 30: by Kenna (new)

Kenna (kennas) | 76 comments Yarg. Elf sex. Wonder how that works. Demons get violent, witches do power pulls, vampires bite, weres, well, like dogs? and Elves.....yeah.
I have a question though. Im probably wrong but did I see in the book that Ceri's baby was supposed to be the first elf born because the demons took the power to reproduce from them or was that my imagination? I thought thats why Trent had to have the blood sample from the database. If so...how does Trent have a baby?

If I am mistaken, what was the blood for again. That was many many books ago.


message 31: by VampireNovelFan (last edited Mar 02, 2011 10:03AM) (new)

VampireNovelFan | 489 comments Elf sex? Well, I'd start with imagining LOTS of tingling going on ~_^.

I think they did research to do gene therapy on the current elves so that the newborns would be rid of the demon curse. Trent got the blood sample as a reference that they could use to compare it with current elf blood and fix the curse.


message 32: by Ashalyn (new)

Ashalyn | 17 comments Ok...I have been thinking this theory and even asked about it at her signing last night. Does anyone else think that maybe Trent / Rachael ending up together might be the thing the Elves / Demons need to make peace. The baby being a big key sign. I mean everyone knows from reading as much as Rachael hates it she really likes if not loves (never admit it) Trent and vice-versa. Trent's baby didn't like anyone but her. She seemed at peace plus Trent even made Rachel her godmother.
Plus you have to think the kiss at the end. I think it was another trick because why would a kiss matter it most likely means more (as far as why it worked) then Trent let on.
At the signing last night Kim did tell me there is a very good possibility Rachael and Trent do end up together. Rarely do I root for a couple in series but with this one I am actually crossing my fingers.

As far as the soul theory. I never really thought about that as I am reading the book but now it has been mentioned I agree that would be a really good possibility.

I apologize if it his is kind of random it is 3:30 and I went to bed at midnight so a little tired.


message 33: by VampireNovelFan (new)

VampireNovelFan | 489 comments Ashalyn wrote: "Ok...I have been thinking this theory and even asked about it at her signing last night. Does anyone else think that maybe Trent / Rachael ending up together might be the thing the Elves / Demons ..."

I love everything you said but Kim said this on her blog:

"You asked about Trent? I think he loves her in some way, yes, but I don't think Rachel loves him at all."


message 34: by Dana (last edited Mar 03, 2011 09:54PM) (new)

Dana (erato) | 27 comments Right now, I think that is the way of it VNF. I don't think she loves him right now either. I think she has spent a lot of years seeing him do what she views as terrible things and wishing he were different or would stop. I think her 'inner girl' wants to be friends with Trent but her grown up morality objected.

I do think, however, that as time passes and Rachel is forced to do things that she wouldn't have in the past. Things to protect what she holds dear, she is realizing that most of what Trent does is for just the same reason.

I think she may have a bit of a revelation 9after some obligatory internal struggle) and then come to realize that they are remarkably alike. :)


message 35: by VampireNovelFan (new)

VampireNovelFan | 489 comments Dana wrote: "Right now, I think that is the way of it VNF. I don't think she loves him right now either. I think she has spent a lot of years seeing him do what she views as terrible things and wishing he were ..."

I'm okay with that, but we've got years to go yet and anything can happen.


message 36: by Wilda (new)

Wilda (wilda85) | 2 comments Holy cow! That never even crossed my mind. I definitely think you are onto something though.


message 37: by Ronove (last edited Mar 05, 2011 07:31PM) (new)

Ronove (narodnik) | 89 comments Ah, just finished the book. OH YES. Truthfully, I had to stop myself from coming on here yesterday, where I was at in the book (Trent just cursed her and the witches and coven were wanting to "burn the witch.") I had to force myself to not even turn the computer on.

I would have - RANTED - I even RANTED out loud, wanting Anita Blake (from the earlier novels) to jump into this series, show up and - KILL THEM ALL, just KILLLLL THEM ALLLL!!! Yeah yeah, crossing series, so what, he he. In my dreams - they cross often, and not just those two series!

I was SO oh god, SO mad! I wanted Rachel to tell the humans the WHOLE truth - all of it, how the Elves started it by cursing demons. How the witches were defective demons - all of them, how even Rosylin Franklin (DNA researcher, real person in the Watson and Crick thing, btw - they stole her research in real life!)...how even she was a WITCH! How Trent let day-walking serial killer insane demon loose and did not care even a bit, or think twice if thousands of humans died as a result. OUT IT ALL. Explain how the elf race is self-centered, ruthless, can't even grasp how murdering thousand of humans is bad, so long as the elf can save his little baby. OUT IT ALL. Bring on Salem, bring it on! Let it all burn to hell - and then SPLIT into the ever after and let them devour themselves here.

Demons may have been LIKE Rachel thousands of years ago, kindly, big hearts to the point of being uncommonly stupid, just like Rachel. The only reason there is a crime called uncommon stupidity is that there had been exactly that. Al said it once, after thousands of years, you learn to hate. I wanted to oh god - RANT.

Al knows what Trent did to keep her alive because Pearce already told him, after Al beat the crap out of both Trent and Vivian. Remember? Reread it! Trent even told her NOT to use the bracelet to hide - he only said she can now honestly choose. With it on, she's technically a demon (DNA) but she's a simple earth witch, not even a ley lime witch anymore.

People, Rachel has to BE who and what she is - or she can never have inner truth and peace. She is a DEMON - and Newt was pretty good with her, teaching her to make the tulpa reality. She needs to take off the bracelet - go back to the ever after and just explain to Al that the delay was her recuperating.

Last I read Pearce is NOT back with that (oh GOD I HATE THEM) coven of ethical puke. He's with Al. Pearce LOVES Rachel - even though he knows that she does NOT love him. That was made clear.

And oh yeah, Anita Blake is needed to take care of Nick and Oliver. Ha ha. She's WORSE THAN AL OR NEWT!!! HA!! And those sanctimonious witches, calling on "burn the witch." You'd think they'd know better due to Salem? Me? I'd go after them and send them to CHRISTIAN hell where they could "burn baby burn" forever and ever!! ha ha. NO mercy. NONE. Rachel - oh god - she's worse than Jesus with all that "forgive them for they don't know what they do, or didn't mean it, or blah blah"!!! LOL. All the demons might have once been exactly like that. I wanted to rant - I was a little in tears even.

The demons were nice to her. Even when they weren't sure she was one of them - Newt showed up for her - and then they were great, happy to have her. She'd have a place, a room of her own with Al as a roomate. A nice place. Al needs to stop making Newt forget. She has to also fix that hole she made that's threatening the ever-after.

We need to know the history - all of it. They ALL lived on Earth once. Elves started it, they harmed the demons. WHY? Demons struck back. Then the elves, oh the sheer arrogance of them, they whine that the witches left the ever after and left them to fight demons? My god! Elves are RESPONSIBLE for making defective demons/witches in the first place, and then lying to them about who/what they are! The sheer arrogance of the Elves! I do NOT like them.

How did Cute Socks (I can't believe I forgot how to spell his name already, hmm) - how did he make Newt kill her sisters (as he said) - or she did it for him (as she said)? We need details on what happened before anything can be resolved.

I do not see Rachel with Trent. For me, that's just NOT an option.

Ivy's soul. Kisten said, before he died 2nd death, that God was holding his soul after he became undead vamp - he saw it, felt it, and told Rachel. Remember? So imo, the whole issue of Ivy's soul IS resolved.

OH, one other thing, catch up on standard fairy tales for elf quests and such - and kisses to wake up the "sleeping beauty." Trent needed to kiss her to get the soul back in. In folklore, elves are infamous for stealing babies - and/or substituting them with changelings.

and yeah, Lucy has to be super cute with Mr. Spock ears :)


message 38: by VampireNovelFan (last edited Mar 05, 2011 05:33PM) (new)

VampireNovelFan | 489 comments Ronove wrote: "Al knows what Trent did to keep her alive because Pearce already told him, after Al beat the crap out of both Trent and Vivian. Remember? Reread it! Trent even told her not to use the bracelet to hide - he only said she can now honestly choose. With it on, she's technically a demon (DNA) but she's a simple earth witch, not even a ley lime witch anymore. "

I'm pretty sure Al thinks Rachel's a vegetable, therefore as good as dead. The excerpt goes:

Trent stood, turning to the window. I couldn’t read his tells. I was afraid to. “Pierce knew you were alive in the bottle,” he said softly, the hospital noise coming in faintly. “He also knew that I was the only one who could get you safely out. If I died, you would die.” Trent turned, his head bowed, looking nothing like himself in his wrinkled clothes and with his hair unstyled. “Pierce doesn’t like me much, but he took the blame. Said he was the one who caused your death by his failure to protect you and keep Ku’Sox from taking you into the lines. Al dropped me and took him instead.”

Al wouldn't kill Trent if Al knew because then he would know that Trent was Rachel's only hope. And Trent still wants her to lay low for just a little bit, hence why he gave her that check. I really don't get the uproar about the bracelet honestly. We KNOW it's coming off, with a shitstorm soon to follow. Should be entertaining!


message 39: by Kenna (new)

Kenna (kennas) | 76 comments I was hoping that Rachel would use Ku’Sox to plug that hole that she made. Now that I think about it it was probably impossible since it was a big one but it would have gotten rid of him once and for all.

Ronove...wo0w! Someone ate their wheaties! LOL I think that it was hinted that Ku’Sox promised that if Newt killed her sisters then he would be her "mate" or what ever it is that demons are to each other. Newt was mighty jealous when she thought that Rachel was going after him.


message 40: by Ally (new)

Ally (allycats86) | 25 comments If Al knew what Trent had done, I'm pretty sure he would have taken Rachel and her soul back to the ever-after. After all, demons can put souls back in bodies, so there wouldn't be any reason to leave something like that up to Trent. Besides, why would a demon trust an elf to save the last hope of renewing their race?


message 41: by Ronove (last edited Mar 05, 2011 09:09PM) (new)

Ronove (narodnik) | 89 comments I'm not sure demons can put a soul back in the body it BELONGS in. Ain't seen that happen yet.

If Al didn't trust Trent to do as he promised, he'd have killed Trent. If he could have fixed Rachel, he'd then have taken the soul and fixed her himself. As a demon, he'd know where the soul was and where the body was. IF he could do it, he'd have done it. That didn't happen. Fact is, Pierce knew, ergo Al knows. He probably doesn't know IF the soul is back in place yet - the state of her health.

We know Rachel is going back to the ever after in the next book, true. Oh god, one year? That's way too long.

The bracelet IS a big deal because well, if she keeps it on, she CAN have the life she thought she wanted, simple runner service, earth magic witch stuff - nothing else. That is what she thought she wanted way way back (pre series story) - and still wanted when she quit the IS.

But as we see Rachel develop in the novels - what she WANTS to be tends to clash with what she IS. She needs to BE - who she IS. She has FINALLY accepted the fact that she is a demoness, not JUST a demon!

I didn't get that Ku Sox promised to mate with Newt. Perhaps the demons intended this, but that's not what I got from what both of them said.

Newt helped Rachel (tulpa reality making). I did not get that Newt thought Rachel wanted Ku Sox as a mate. She was in agreement - she AND Rachel wanted to kill him. Newt, when she remembers things fine, as in the demon restaurant, tends to answer Rachel's thoughts, mind reading. For a moment Newt thought Rachel WAS Ku Sox, tho, Ku Sox killing Al!

mmmm, Trent only wants Rachel to lay low if she decides to wear that bracelet and stay in reality. He told her NOT to wear it to hide. She has a choice now. 1. be the earth witch simple runner she thought she wanted to be back when she was a teen, or 2. be what she really is, no matter who or what made her that way. That's the choice. I opt for 2. Heh, we all do :)

I got that when Pierce came in and said he knew what Trent did, Al was there beating Trent and Vivian up - Al turns to Pierce and takes him. Imo, Al knows what Trent did to save her. He probably can't know what state of health she is in yet, i.e., if the soul is back inside her yet (unless someone tells him) - but he'd know she's not dead. Trent has a smily face demon mark on him - ergo, Rachel is alive.

I note that Rachel has sexual thoughts all the time for ANY male that looks pretty good. She tends to get distracted by that kind of thing (which kinda irks me as really immature).


message 42: by VampireNovelFan (last edited Mar 05, 2011 09:13PM) (new)

VampireNovelFan | 489 comments Kim's said that Al believes she's dead. The only way he could know she is alive is by hearsay, but I think she said the bracelet will come off before then.


message 43: by Ronove (new)

Ronove (narodnik) | 89 comments Hmm, you know, asking the author kinda puts a muzzle on discussing POVs.

From what I know of demons and what they know and can know, I don't see how he'd believe she is dead- dead, really dead. Comatose perhaps. Demons could sense her soul. Ah, NEWT could, maybe not Al. Maybe someone asked Kim the wrong question :)

Oh yes, the bracelet will come off - it has to! The only way it would stay on is if the economy really crashes this time and KH doesn't get another book published :( OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD. lol.

OK, as of the end of PD, Al thinks she's dead. One day later - Pierce gives it all up. Or Newt gets it from him.

I'd like to know the whole history of that war. Exactly what happened. Note in one of the books, I think I remember some demon saying that it was thousands of years before Al was around. I'm not sure what "it" was that was thousands of years before. I forgot :(

This was a FANTASTIC book, btw. What I had posted was the rant I wanted to make, before I finished the book. OH, I was so mad. LOL. That means Kim is a good writer, btw. But I have to wonder if when writing that, she realizes WHAT she wrote, how older audience would read it. The ones I know offline got as raving mad as I did at that point in the novel.

The opinion was: stay there in the ever after, fix the place, plug the hole and then bring down those self righteous witches, sig the humans on them, tell the world what the elves did - they all asked for it. Saint Rachel is widely hated and reviled, even moreso by people she has saved and risked her life for. Time to give up being the Saint.

Fixing up the ever after would be easy now that there are two females that can make such nice places (with the tulpas). that is amazing. Already Rachel had a demon wanting to buy Cormel's pool scene. She has a home there. That was the opinion!


message 44: by Dana (last edited Mar 05, 2011 10:08PM) (new)

Dana (erato) | 27 comments Allyson wrote: "If Al knew what Trent had done, I'm pretty sure he would have taken Rachel and her soul back to the ever-after. After all, demons can put souls back in bodies, so there wouldn't be any reason to le..."

Well, I think that is a bit tricky. Only female demons can pull a soul out as well as being the gender that can house one inside of them. I think possibly, a properly trained male demon could spell a bottle or other container to house a soul, but they can't put it there. They can't pull it out either. They can let the soul out of a bottle and let it try to take over another's body, like what happened to Rachel, but they can't pull it out of anyone.

@Renove: I don't think All knows that Rachel's soul survived and that was the issue. They told Al that her soul was 'lost', for lack of a better term, in the lines. You can't sense a soul once it is bottled so other than being told, he wouldn't know that Trent could save Rachel I don't think. So I think the issue is whether or not Pierce will let slip the info to save himself.

Al knew that Rachel's body was alive though so having her walking and talking wouldn't change the status quo, so long as she wore the braclet. I think the bracelet just keeps her soul 'hidden', not her body.

Which, now that I think about it, answers some of the questions that I had after I started this whole conversation. I wasn't thinking about it enough at the time. I was still riding the high of reading the story! :) If Al knew her body was still alive, but soul dead, then none of the concerns I had originally would be an issue I think.

If her body was still alive:
-Her mark on Trent wouldn't disappear.
-Her summoning name wouldn't disappear.
-Once her soul was gone, the collective wouldn't register it, and if Trent's braclet keeps it hidden, then she would still be essentially undetected by the demon collective.

I really think that this is going to be where we see Pierce screw Rachel over again. He can't be dead yet since I don't think Kim would take him out 'off screen'. So he will end up being a by-atch for the demon's/Al. I still think Newt will be jerking his chain the next time we see him. Boy I'll be really sad about that. *fake sniffle* :)

On a seperate note, I don't think Newt has been upset about a 'lover' issue in forever. Unless I am remembering completely wrong, all the male demons are scared to dead of 'loving' Newt. Wasn't something said, somewhere between books 3 and 5 that Minias was the only lover Newt had had in millenia that she hadn't pulled a line through and killed. I don't think Newt is very ruled by hormones...more like psychosis. ;P


message 45: by VampireNovelFan (new)

VampireNovelFan | 489 comments Dana wrote: "Allyson wrote: "If Al knew what Trent had done, I'm pretty sure he would have taken Rachel and her soul back to the ever-after. After all, demons can put souls back in bodies, so there wouldn't be ..."

On the subject of Newt. It also appears that Minias was spelling her to keep her memory muddy. With him gone, she's getting better.


message 46: by Dana (new)

Dana (erato) | 27 comments Oh hey, VNF, you're good with recall...I can't remember if Minias is actually dead. Did we get confirmation from Kim that he is indeed dead? I don't remember that. I thought it was kind of assumed since she was super PO'd at him and then we haven't heard from him. Hhhhmmm....


message 47: by VampireNovelFan (last edited Mar 05, 2011 11:10PM) (new)

VampireNovelFan | 489 comments Dana wrote: "Oh hey, VNF, you're good with recall...I can't remember if Minias is actually dead. Did we get confirmation from Kim that he is indeed dead? I don't remember that. I thought it was kind of assumed ..."

Yeah, Kim confirmed it. He's gone for good though I liked Minias :-(. Newt says she killed him in Pale Demon as well on page 254 (gotta love Kindle's new page number feature!).


message 48: by Dana (new)

Dana (erato) | 27 comments *sigh* I really liked Minias too...bummer. While I am a big fan of both Al and Trent, I had a momentary flirtation with the idea of her demon beau being Minias and not Al. Well, that was a big NO then. :) Thanks girlie!


message 49: by Ronove (new)

Ronove (narodnik) | 89 comments Yup, when Newt showed up to kick Rachel in the head, thinking she was killing Al, or that she was Ku Sox in disguise - she talked, sort of dreamy at the time. Where is Minius. Oh, I killed him. She was still a bit foggy with her "everafter is shrinking, I need a ruler" bit.

At the diner, I think Newt was not foggy at all. Remember, Al said he'd let her keep remembering and snidely said, until she kills Minius. She was clear enough to remember the ruler, asked Rachel if she got one.

Considering the little bit I know now about Elf wild magic, that must have been some war they started with the demons - and the demons would have learned more and more skills due to that war.

When Rachel gets back to the everafter, she MUST bring Newt the ruler, and also bring tons and tons of marshmellows! I'm dying to find out what's up with the demon society, now that they have heard the bad news. I also liked Minius.

As to Newt - I agree, she's not ruled by hormones at all - but the war, being tricked or forced to kill her sisters - yeah. Obviously, that drove her over the edge.


message 50: by VampireNovelFan (new)

VampireNovelFan | 489 comments Dana wrote: "*sigh* I really liked Minias too...bummer. While I am a big fan of both Al and Trent, I had a momentary flirtation with the idea of her demon beau being Minias and not Al. Well, that was a big NO t..."

No problem. I sort of liked the idea of them back in book 6.


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