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Malazan Book of the Fallen > "Gardens of the Moon" Part 2--February 22-28, 2011--Books 2 & 3 (Chapters 5-10)

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Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (captain_sir_roddy) This is the folder for the second part of our discussion of Steven Erikson's novel, "Gardens of the Moon". This section covers Books 2 & 3 (Chapters 5-10). Discussion starts on Tuesday, February 22nd.


message 2: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1059 comments Well, I've gotten this far! And just discovered I've been spelling the damn name wrong! LOL.

I'm liking it better. It's starting to feel more comfortable. The magic system is interesting - starting to get a feel for it and how some of it works anyway.


message 3: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1059 comments Read chapter 5. I like Kruppe and his way of talking/thinking about himself in the third person. Didn't know what to make of the thief and the people trying to kill him, but I must say I'm glad he got away. The city is well drawn.


Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (captain_sir_roddy) Sandra, Kruppe is nothing more than just a priceless character (he reminds me so much of some of the characters developed by Charles Dickens!). Kruppe is a fellow that you definitely want to pay very close attention to every little thing that he does or says. He is a very, very significant player.

The scene on the rooftops across Darujhistan was awesome wasn't it. Very exciting and very mysterious. It almost becomes difficult sorting out who the prey is or who the hunters are. I really think the scenes in the city, with all of its wonderful characters and imagery, is some of most cinematic in the whole novel. Fortunately for all of us reading the book, most of the novel takes place in Darujhistan. Somehow this city reminds me of an ancient city in north Africa.


message 5: by Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos (new)

Maggie K | 1202 comments Mod
Kruppe is pretty hilarious!

I think it is important to note here that the assassin that is killed ends up dying on the temple to an elder god K'rul. Can anyone say blood sacrifice?


message 6: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1059 comments Yes, the rooftop scene was very good, although I found myself comparing it to a rooftop chase/race in the very fine Queens' Play by Dorothy Dunnett. I think I would've enjoyed it more if I knew the characters.

Maggie, I must say the complexity is starting to intrigue me.

And, Chris, the city is intriguing, indeed. Glad to hear we'll be spending more time here.


message 7: by Raven614 (new)

Raven614 | 17 comments I am bothered by Lorn’s mission. It seems to me unnecessary. The extermination in their own ranks is a recipe for disaster. Also doesn’t it seem that almost every character has a good rule to live by? Even if they are thieves, assassins, and sorcerers. They have that have that one thing they won’t do. Examples the courtier Murillio will not pray on married women. The thief feels guilty about violating his mark's innocence by seeing her naked. I guess this makes them human but doesn’t seem to go with the dark nature of the book. Also there is very little humor, we are constantly reminded of the horrors of war.

This book is definitely expanding my imagination what with this Tool character, the flying bug race, the gods. This book is not for everyone. What gets me is the steep learning curve from the beginning. Didn’t George Lucas start on chapter 4 A New Hope (Star Wars) because he thought that would be a better place for the audience to get into the movies.


message 8: by Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos (new)

Maggie K | 1202 comments Mod
Raven614 wrote: "I am bothered by Lorn’s mission. It seems to me unnecessary. The extermination in their own ranks is a recipe for disaster. Also doesn’t it seem that almost every character has a good rule to live ..."

Well, the issue is What is really Lorn's mission? Lorn herself is going after the tyrant. She has ordered Paran to go after Sorry. I don't think she said anywhere Sorry was to be killed neccessarily. (although I could be wrong about that one) There are certain people worried she is there to kill the bridgeburners, but is that true, or just an assumption based on everything else?


Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (captain_sir_roddy) First, I very much like Adjunct Lorn. She is a complicated and interesting character; and as able an administrator as she is, her humanity does come to the surface periodically (e.g., remember her visceral reaction to Tattersail at the dinner with Tayschrenn, Dujek, and Toc the Younger). Maggie, I also think you're correct in framing Paran's mission to find Sorry. I don't think that he was supposed to just outright kill her, but find her and find out what/who is controlling her.


message 10: by Raven614 (last edited Feb 22, 2011 09:05AM) (new)

Raven614 | 17 comments Your right I'm assuming just one aspect of her mission, but you do bring up the Tyrant which I just read about . It is just one more piece of the 1000 piece puzzle. Wow wait till you get to the conversation between Brood and Crone, not sure I got it all.

That release of power was sure exciting!


message 11: by Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos (new)

Maggie K | 1202 comments Mod
Raven614 wrote: "Your right I'm assuming just one aspect of her mission, but you do bring up the Tyrant which I just read about . It is just one more piece of the 1000 piece puzzle. Wow wait till you get to the con..."

I agree! We get a whole new bunch of characters right in this first chapter even, and I think the Crone and Caladan Brood are both important ones.


message 12: by Raven614 (new)

Raven614 | 17 comments Christopher wrote: "First, I very much like Adjunct Lorn. She is a complicated and interesting character; and as able an administrator as she is, her humanity does come to the surface periodically (e.g., remember her..."
That part of the formal dinner was, so far, my favorite part of the book. Lorn shows so much emotion then when called in check goes on business as usual. She is one tough SOB.


message 13: by Raven614 (new)

Raven614 | 17 comments It’s really fun to watch the dynamic choosing of whose side the different characters are deciding on. That seems to be one of the big ideas in the book. Some are on the fly choices other are based on history. No one really trusts each other. Except the bridge burners which everyone can see is the one true unified group. Maybe that why the empire sees them as a treat and others admire them. I’ve got a tiger by the tail here barely holding on to the facts but still enjoying the ride!


message 14: by Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (last edited Feb 22, 2011 09:46AM) (new)

Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (captain_sir_roddy) A side-note, sort of--

Early on in our second section of the novel, we have our first encounter with a member of the T'lan Imass, an Elder race of beings. I don't want to spend time here explaining more about the T'lan Imass, as you will learn much more about these peoples shortly. What I do want to point out that this really illustrates one of the strengths that Steven Erikson and his Malazan co-creator, Ian C. Esslemont, bring to the series--and that is their love of and expertise in the fields of anthropology and archaeology.

To me, it is quite apparent that Erikson/Esslemont have modeled the T'lan Imass on the Neandertal (Homo neandertalensis), a hominid species that occupied portions of prehistoric Europe, Asia, the Middle East, and Africa for something on the order of 300,000 years, only becoming extinct perhaps as little as 25,000-30,000 years ago. They clearly co-occupied regions and habitats with our early ancestors, modern man (Homo sapiens), and it is these potential interactions that continue to intrigue and inspire anthropologists and archaeologists today. Anyway, I do see lots of Neandertal characteristics and behaviors in the T'lan Imass peoples of these novels.

Additionally, there are other races in the Malazan world that exhibit characteristics similar to Native American peoples that occupied portions of North America, both pre-Columbian, and post-colonization by European settlers. For example, some of the Malazan "pastoral nomadic societies" bear strong similarities to native American tribal societies that occupied the Great Plains, following the great herd migrations of bison, etc. Look at Erikson's 'Rhivi' and 'Barghast' peoples and you can see some of these characteristics, in my opinion.

In subsequent novels, we will meet other races of peoples in the Malazan world that follow this mold as well. Maybe it is just me, but I really found this a most fascinating element of the novels and one that really lends to the overall feeling of gritty authenticity exhibited by the series.


message 15: by Shelley (new)

Shelley (shelley69) | 597 comments Christopher wrote: "A side-note, sort of--

Early on in our second section of the novel, we have our first encounter with a member of the T'lan Imass, an Elder race of beings. I don't want to spend time here explaini..."


First, I must say that I have read this series in its entirety twice (and just finished DoD for the third time waiting for ACG to come out on Mar 1st!) over the last two years and it has consumed me! I have gone so far as to buy the first three books for everyone I know...if you make it to Memories then you're hooked, I won't need to do anything more!! So to see all these new readers of the Malazan Series is friggin AWESOME, IMO!! :))

I too am impressed with what SE/ICE have created, being both a student of history and a former member of the military, they have been able to capture two of my greatest loves in this epic series. The history of this story goes back eons and with their creation of the Malazan military you see hints of both Rome and Greece, not to mention their mythology. Someone up above brought up the Star Wars movies and that's funny because that was the movie I use as an example to describe this series. You know how Lucus starts the filming in the middle of the story?? He does this because if he started with the beginning there would be no mystery to who Skywalker is, ect. So here the story starts with the Bridgeburners (it has to) and they are the eyes you view this world you've entered, and you get glimpses of what came before in characters such as Rake, Crown and Brood. But keep in mind that every and all associations are important and nothing is as it seems!!

SE/ICE's ability to capture and include so much detail boggles the mind really and I wish there was a companion guide!


message 16: by Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (last edited Feb 22, 2011 06:17PM) (new)

Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (captain_sir_roddy) Shelley wrote: "SE/ICE's ability to capture and include so much detail boggles the mind really and I wish there was a companion guide!"

Shelley, great comments all! I couldn't agree with you more enthusiastically. This series really does have it all--fabulous characters, tremendous sense of a fictional history, a story-line steeped in anthropology, some epic military fiction, and a mind-blowingly cool mythology.

It is my understanding that SE/ICE are actually working on a reader's companion for the series even as we speak. A question we should pose for corroboration for SE in our Q&A folder.


message 17: by Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (last edited Feb 23, 2011 10:20AM) (new)

Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (captain_sir_roddy) I thought I'd throw out some of my thoughts/observations and questions associated with Part 2 of our read here and see what all of you think--

Who do you think are the 'Hunters' that are prowling the rooftops of Darujhistan taking out members of the Assassin's Guild? And why are they doing this?

Baruk, the High Alchemist of Darujhistan is another intriguing character, isn't he? His meetings with Councilman Turban Orr, Crone, and then Anomander Rake all indicate that he is a very important Daru personality, and one to keep an eye on.

What did all of you think of Anomander Rake's perspective of the "Sorcerous Enfilade" during the attack on Moon's Spawn during the Siege of Pale? This little tidbit came up during Rake's meeting with the Daru mage Baruk. It was interesting, to me, getting Rake's viewpoint about that important event, and it raises more questions than it probably answers, eh?

What do all of you think of these little dream sequences of Kruppe's? They are worth paying close attention to, methinks.

Do all of you like Crokus Youngblood's friends: Rallick Nom, Murillio, and the lush, Coll? And of course, the little round man with the red jacket, Kruppe, is the other member of this little group too.

Crokus and the coin. Hmmm, what's up with this? "The Lad pushes, and the Lady pulls." Oponn's Luck. This seems quite important right now, doesn't it? Even some of the Malazans in Pale are aware of the "spinning coin." It seems that many understand that the gods are directly meddling. Can this be good?

And who is "The Eel"? Hmm, "he's a slippery one..." Put your thinking-cap on for this one, folks. ;-)

Okay, now the Bridgeburners are near Darujhistan. One can only wonder what kind of mischief they're going to be getting into.

Maybe this is enough for now...

I'll leave you with a Trivia Question--

What name did Captain Ganoes Paran give to his sword?


message 18: by Sandra (last edited Feb 22, 2011 05:26PM) (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1059 comments None of you have mentioned Crone, the raven, who I find to be quite interesting and very funny. She reminds me a little of that bird character in Kay's Sailing to Sarantium, Linon.


Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (captain_sir_roddy) Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "None of you have mentioned Crone, the raven, who I find to be quite interesting and very funny. She reminds me a little of that bird character in Kay's Sailing to Sarantium, Linon."

I mentioned Crone, above (post no. 17), in the context of her meeting with Baruk. She's a pretty cool (and powerful) character, isn't she?


message 20: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1059 comments Christopher wrote: "Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "None of you have mentioned Crone, the raven, who I find to be quite interesting and very funny. She reminds me a little of that bird character in Kay's [book:Sailing to Sar..."

Oh, sorry. Missed it. But yes, she's cool. And powerful.


Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (captain_sir_roddy) Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "Christopher wrote: "Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "None of you have mentioned Crone, the raven, who I find to be quite interesting and very funny. She reminds me a little of that bird character in Kay's ..."

And the imagery of those flocks, and flocks, and flocks of these giant ravens roosting on the surface of Moon's Spawn was pretty awesome too!


message 22: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1059 comments Christopher wrote: "Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "Christopher wrote: "Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "None of you have mentioned Crone, the raven, who I find to be quite interesting and very funny. She reminds me a little of that ..."

And feasting on the carnage of the first battle scene at Itko Kan (or was it just a slaughter scene?)


Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (captain_sir_roddy) Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "Christopher wrote: "Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "Christopher wrote: "Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "None of you have mentioned Crone, the raven, who I find to be quite interesting and very funny. She reminds ..."

"Slaughter scene" is probably closer to it, Sandra. It didn't seem that the soldiers of that mounted regiment had much opportunity to actually fight all seven of the Hounds of Shadow.


message 24: by Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos (new)

Maggie K | 1202 comments Mod
this week we had some political intrigue too, with the assassination of that Councilman at Simtal's estate, and then later the talk of 'voting' regarding the cities neutrality.
The first time through I had no clue why the assassination happened.It seemed like he wanted to kill SImtal out of revenge, but then for some reason the conversation made him change his mind and kill Lim instead.


message 25: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1059 comments Maggie wrote: "this week we had some political intrigue too, with the assassination of that Councilman at Simtal's estate, and then later the talk of 'voting' regarding the cities neutrality.
The first time thro..."


Yes, I was a little bewildered, too. It almost felt like he killed the Councilman accidentally - didn't he lose his balance because of a magic surge or something?


message 26: by Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos (new)

Maggie K | 1202 comments Mod
I took it as he got a magic surge and changed his mind, thinking this would be a more elaboate revenge


message 27: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1059 comments Maggie wrote: "I took it as he got a magic surge and changed his mind, thinking this would be a more elaboate revenge"

Are we going to get more explanations re: these 'magic surges'?


message 28: by Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos (new)

Maggie K | 1202 comments Mod
IIRC, he heard 'the spinning coin'...which indicates Oponn interfering


message 29: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1059 comments Maggie wrote: "IIRC, he heard 'the spinning coin'...which indicates Oponn interfering"

Oh yeah. He did.


Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (captain_sir_roddy) You guys have the right of it with respect to Rallick's killing of the Councilor versus his original target of Lady Simtal. That 'magic surge', if you will, seems to have definitely been the "push-pull" of Oponn's influence on events in Darujhistan; and apparently Oponn did not want the "neutrality resolution" being prepared by Councilor Orr to pass the Council. Maggie, I think you are right that Rallick Nom originally wanted to kill Lady Simtal out of revenge (view spoiler).

There's just so much good stuff to talk about in this second section of the novel, and I think it will keep us busy all week chasing tidbits around! ;-)


message 31: by Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos (new)

Maggie K | 1202 comments Mod
oh I remember!

Another great tidbit you brought up before Christopher...what Rake said about the Battle at Pale. IIRC, he claims that Tayschrenn killed the mages, and deflected Rake's attacks on to the soldiers around him...was this all just another cover-up? All these deaths?

But even more freaky is this sword of Rakes. Even BAruk gets scared that Rake wants to use it on the refugee wizards, and says he will deliver their heads... very ominous!


Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (captain_sir_roddy) Maggie wrote: "oh I remember!

Another great tidbit you brought up before Christopher...what Rake said about the Battle at Pale. IIRC, he claims that Tayschrenn killed the mages, and deflected Rake's attacks ..."


Ah, yes, Anomander Rake's great sword. We shall certainly be learning more about it. Doesn't Baruk have a sense of a "great aura of blackness" when he looks at the sword as it hangs on Anomander's back?

Regarding Rake's perception of the "Sorcerous Enfilade at Pale", it was my sense that he was telling the truth as he described the battle to Baruk. What did you think?


message 33: by Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos (new)

Maggie K | 1202 comments Mod
I agree--I think this is one of those mysteries that never is fully revealed, but it seemed to me like the whole attack on Moon's Spawn was a cover-up for Tayschrenn to kill Nightchill and the other mages. Mostlikely on Laseen's orders. But thats just my take.


message 34: by Shelley (new)

Shelley (shelley69) | 597 comments Christopher wrote: "I thought I'd throw out some of my thoughts/observations and questions associated with Part 2 of our read here and see what all of you think--

Who do you think are the 'Hunters' that are prowling ..."


These are great topic/discussion points Christopher!! I sure wish I had had access to something like this forum when I read the series my first time thru! Oh and I have started to compile my list of Q's for SE! :)

Maggie your last post was mostly right, just keep in mind that in this series you may get an answer three books from now...


message 35: by Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos (new)

Maggie K | 1202 comments Mod
oh beleive me I have learned that one Shelley-lol Thee books keep me on my toes. I don't know how many times Ive had to go 3 books back to verify something or another. It amazes me how epic the malazan world is.


message 36: by Shelley (new)

Shelley (shelley69) | 597 comments Maggie wrote: "oh beleive me I have learned that one Shelley-lol These books keep me on my toes. I don't know how many times Ive had to go 3 books back to verify something or another. It amazes me how epic the ma..."

Yeah Maggie, EPIC is the word I use most often when discribing the Malazan world! As for going back and rereading sections, I did the same thing, even during the second read thru.


Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (captain_sir_roddy) Shelley, I am so glad that you've stopped by and I hope that you'll dive right in here as you see fit. Your enthusiasm is infectious, and your knowledge adds ever so much! Cheers! Chris


message 38: by Shelley (new)

Shelley (shelley69) | 597 comments Christopher wrote: "Shelley, I am so glad that you've stopped by and I hope that you'll dive right in here as you see fit. Your enthusiasm is infectious, and your knowledge adds ever so much! Cheers! Chris"

Awwww thanks Chris!! :) I have to say there is a part of me that's envious of the new readers to this series because they're getting to meet this motley crew of characters for the first time! So in a way this forum is giving that newness back to me! :))


message 39: by Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos (new)

Maggie K | 1202 comments Mod
Oh and here we have it...Kruppe dreams of K'rul, the Elder God, who has been awakened...blood sacrifice!


message 40: by Raven614 (new)

Raven614 | 17 comments Ok dumb question but why is everyone traveling through the Rhivi plain I thought they started from Pale and had to go south around the lake to get to Darujhistan.


message 41: by Jason (last edited Feb 24, 2011 07:40AM) (new)

Jason | 6 comments Shelley wrote: SE/ICE's ability to capture and include so much detail boggles the mind really and I wish there was a companion guide!
Spot on as usual Shells! I think the thing to know about SE/ICE and how they wrote the series is that some of the little things are really not little things later in the series.

The other impressive thing about this series is how well the two authors SE/ICE compliment and have faith in each other for what they are doing. I am not sure if I have read a better author combination for a series yet with how SE/ICE have done for the Malazan books.

I'm currently re-reading the series again and am on House of Chains and it is amazing to see how well SE sets up the entire series by Memories of Ice. I was hoping to have it done by the time The Crippled God makes it out, but that will not happen, so I will keep plugging away until TCG comes out and then read that than go back to the series and finish the second read through.

Like Shelley, I am glad to see new readers of SE and am jealous as they are getting to read it for the first time. You guys are in for one hell of a ride =) I simply think this is probably one of the greatest series ever written.


message 42: by Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos (new)

Maggie K | 1202 comments Mod
Raven614 wrote: "Ok dumb question but why is everyone traveling through the Rhivi plain I thought they started from Pale and had to go south around the lake to get to Darujhistan."

I am not sure who you are talking about, and I dont have my book with me here at work, but IIRC, Pale is a city right on the Rhivi plain, on the south end.


Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (captain_sir_roddy) Raven614 wrote: "Ok dumb question but why is everyone traveling through the Rhivi plain I thought they started from Pale and had to go south around the lake to get to Darujhistan."

Raven, Maggie is correct, those leaving Pale would be traversing the southern portion of the Rhivi Plain on their way to Darujhistan.


message 44: by Shelley (new)

Shelley (shelley69) | 597 comments Jason wrote: "Shelley wrote: SE/ICE's ability to capture and include so much detail boggles the mind really and I wish there was a companion guide!
Spot on as usual Shells! I think the thing to know about SE/I..."


And Jason your right as usual!!!! :)

For those of you who may be crazy about maps like am, here is a link to the one of the better maps of the Malazan world...



Shells:)


message 45: by Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos (new)

Maggie K | 1202 comments Mod
What does everyone think of the plotting between Murillo and Rallick? This scene at the Hunter's tower is kind of creepy...and clearly Murillo isnt exactly approving. Did anyone have a take on what they are up to?


message 46: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1059 comments Maggie wrote: "What does everyone think of the plotting between Murillo and Rallick? This scene at the Hunter's tower is kind of creepy...and clearly Murillo isnt exactly approving. Did anyone have a take on wh..."

I don't, and feel mostly frustrated because I haven't got a clue what's going on and why everyone's so nasty.

I popped in to say the link to maps that Christopher posted in the Planning to read thread has been very helpful.

Raven614 wrote: "Ok dumb question but why is everyone traveling through the Rhivi plain I thought they started from Pale and had to go south around the lake to get to Darujhistan."

Good question.


Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.) (captain_sir_roddy) Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "Maggie wrote: "What does everyone think of the plotting between Murillo and Rallick? This scene at the Hunter's tower is kind of creepy...and clearly Murillo isnt exactly approving. Did anyone ha..."

Things become more clear in a bit. I do hope that you caught that both Murillio and Rallick Nom very much care for Crokus. These two are pretty smart fellas and seem to have their fingers on the pulse of Daru.

As I said above (no. 43), to leave Pale and head down to Daru you would be traversing the southern portions of the Rhivi Plain; just as one leaving Dallas on the way to Austin would be in the very southern end of the Great Plains. ;-)


message 48: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1059 comments I just finished Chapter 9. Finally some characters are showing human feelings.

Thanks for your clarifying comments.


message 49: by Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos (new)

Maggie K | 1202 comments Mod
Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "Maggie wrote: "What does everyone think of the plotting between Murillo and Rallick? This scene at the Hunter's tower is kind of creepy...and clearly Murillo isnt exactly approving. Did anyone ha..."

Sandra-I had no clue yet at this point either...it will come out!


message 50: by Maggie, The Malazan Queen of Chaos (new)

Maggie K | 1202 comments Mod
We finally meet our first T'lan Imass in Ch 9. Talk about walking dead...T'lan end up becoming pretty important to the plot, but here we are meeting our first one. He sure can kick some ass at any rate.
Note that Lorn is surprised by the things he tells her...which is more than anyone knows about this unique race.


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