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SERIES—List & Discussions > Wars of Light & Shadow--Traitor's Knot - Ch. I, II, III - SPOILERS!

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message 1: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments The book opens - with several explosive scenes. And Hopefully chapter three gave you a few tears of laughter - spoilers allowed, have at it...


message 2: by orannia (new)

orannia I found the first three chapter sets of Traitor's Knot rather fascinating. It's the secondary characters that are holding my attention ATM, particularly Dakar and Sulfin Evend. The steps Sulfin Evend took to save Lysaer... I found it rather ironic that Sulfin used sorcery to save Lysaer, when Lysaer is intent on stamping it out! I wonder if this will change now that Lysaer knows he's just doing the necromancers' work for them. Probably not. This is Lysaer, and he's nothing if not pig-headed!

I also didn't realize that it's all heirs that are chosen by the Fellowship.

And I know the sorcerors are all enigmatic, but Davien takes that to the extreme IMHO! I know he probably has a reason for continuing to 'step out' as he does, but...I really wish he would actually do something to help! And I mean directly, not indirectly as he is currently doing by preparing Arithon.


message 3: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1141 comments orannia wrote: "I found the first three chapter sets of Traitor's Knot rather fascinating. It's the secondary characters that are holding my attention ATM, particularly Dakar and Sulfin Evend. The steps Sulfin Eve..."

Well, remember, Ms. Wurts is cagey about what she lets us know, and especially with Davien!


message 4: by orannia (new)

orannia Very good point Sandra! Am sure he has his reasons...but the guessing is driving me nuts! I'm wondering if his reticence is in some way still part of what drove him to cause the uprising. Or perhaps a new tactic?

I feel sorry for Lirenda. To all intents and purposes she is enslaved. I so want her to wake up and truly 'see' what is going on.

And has anyone noticed the parallels between Dakar and Fionn Areth? What I mean is, their view of Arithon. Dakar's view changed...will Fionn's?


message 5: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1141 comments orannia wrote: "And has anyone noticed the parallels between Dakar and Fionn Areth? What I mean is, their view of Arithon. Dakar's view changed...will Fionn's? "

Yes, there are parallels. This was especially obvious while they were both at Rockfell Peak in Peril's Gate.


message 6: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments orannia wrote: "Very good point Sandra! Am sure he has his reasons...but the guessing is driving me nuts! I'm wondering if his reticence is in some way still part of what drove him to cause the uprising. Or perhap..."

Good catch, Orannia, on the parallels between Dakar and Fionn - watch this thread as it grows.


message 7: by Stefan, Group Founder + Moderator (Retired) (new)

Stefan (sraets) | 1667 comments Mod
The group has finally reached the point where I stopped in the series, so I'm going to try and read along now, 3 chapter sets per week (depending on how the rest of my reading schedule works out).

I enjoyed the discussion between Arithon and Davien. I loved the scene with poor Fionn and the 's Brydions - poor man gets played by everyone! I also liked the description of Sulvind's ritual to revive Lysaer, but I'm having trouble recalling exactly who caused Lysaer to get to that state. I think I was so sucked into Arithon's ordeal in Davien's Maze in Peril's Gate that I barely registered some of the other story details.

I thought these first 3 chapters were great at repositioning all the characters for the next phase of the story, almost like resetting the board for the next part of the game. I'm hoping to get to the next 3 chapters this week, but I need to finish The Wise Man's Fear first (review is due in a week and I'm not even 1/3 through) so I may have to catch up next week.


message 8: by Jon (new)

Jon (jonmoss) | 626 comments Stefan wrote: "... but I'm having trouble recalling exactly who caused Lysaer to get to that state."

I thought about this last night and I think it goes way back to Warhost or Fugitive, when Talith was still alive. There was a scene where (view spoiler). There might be an earlier instance, but that scene popped out at me when I was reminiscing last night.


message 9: by orannia (new)

orannia @Stefan - I think it was Jeriayish's actions (the blood letting for the scrying) that permitted the opening. As for the instigators...do you want to know or would that be a spoiler?

@Jon - I think the person you're referring to is Mearn. He overheard the Avenor High Council when he was attempting to locate Talith.


message 10: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1141 comments Cerebald started it all I believe with his ability to do 'mind meld' with Lysaer in earlier volumes. And the blood letting in PG with the scrying.


message 11: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments There are references to necromancy salted through fore running volumes.

The actual start of the addictive blood magic was in Grand Conspiracy - XII. Dire Portents. It escalates from there, now that you know what you are looking for, it will hit you face-on. ;) Pretty blatantly stated in Peril's Gate, Ch III set, Diviner; with several more references, slight to blatant. The Fellowship's reaction is there, too...

If I had to hazard a guess - people don't read into Lysaer's chapters as deeply?? and there are so many layers...

Doesn't matter, as by the opening of Traitor's Knot, it's not possible to miss it. :)


message 12: by Bill (new)

Bill (kernos) | 334 comments I don't recall which chapter it was in, but the Koriani Great Waystone was referred to as their penultimate 'power' (or some such). What is the ultimate 'power'.


message 13: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments Kernos wrote: "I don't recall which chapter it was in, but the Koriani Great Waystone was referred to as their penultimate 'power' (or some such). What is the ultimate 'power'."

Read on....:)


message 14: by Bill (new)

Bill (kernos) | 334 comments Somehow, I knew you were going to say that, Janny :-)


message 15: by Kathi, Moderator & Book Lover (new)

Kathi | 3153 comments Mod
Janny wrote: "If I had to hazard a guess - people don't read into Lysaer's chapters as deeply?? and there are so many layers..."
I don't think that's true, Janny, that the readers don't read Lysaer's chapters as deeply. But one difference is that in Arithon's chapters we glimpse his tortured thoughts and decision-making and we see him as a person, through his own eyes and the eyes of those around him. The intimate glimpses into Lysaer are fewer--he not only doesn't let his followers in, he doesn't generally let the reader in either. We see the persona of the Prince of Light, and most people around him see him in rather one-dimension, so we don't get quite the nuanced look at him that we get of Arithon. Without Talith, there is no one he really lets in, with the new exception of Sulfin Evend.

My random thoughts & questions after the first 3 chapter sets:
What's up with Jeynsa, refusing to take the oath as cathdein?

Will there be a showdown between Lysaer and Cerebeld--does Lysaer see the connection between his link with Cerebeld and the necromancy?

Sulfin Evend is going to be in one heck of a bind, between his loyalty to Lysaer and his ties to sorcery and clanblood as evidenced by the ritual to release Lysaer. Would that ritual have "awakened" his clan blood or any other powers he may have?

Now that Kevor is a a member of Ath's Brotherhood, will he still play a significant role at some point? I hope so.

Fionn got the comeuppance he probably deserved, although it is no fault of his own that he wears the likeness of Arithon. The s'Brydions are an wonderful bunch, but rather harsh to "poor" Fionn. And Fionn probably got the shock of his life when he realized they are not true allies of the Alliance of Light.


message 16: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1141 comments As usual, right on the nose with my thinking as you read, Kathi. I have to say that I hated Lysaer through most of the books! There are a few times that I felt sorry for him and wondered if more was going on than he ever showed, but I hate his 'prince/ruler' persona crap so much that it hardly mattered to me.

I wanted to smack Fionn about the head throughout much of the story! He is the stubbornest, thick headedest idjit I've ever seen almost! ARgh.


message 17: by Bill (new)

Bill (kernos) | 334 comments Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "As usual, right on the nose with my thinking as you read, Kathi. I have to say that I hated Lysaer through most of the books! There are a few times that I felt sorry for him and wondered if more ..."

But, he's so beautiful and charming one'll forgive all of his faults when seen. He's a living legend in the sense of Muhammad or Jesus. He's the perfect Shepard for the sheep. Of course we dysfunctionals can see thru his rainbow.


message 18: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1141 comments Kernos wrote: "Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "As usual, right on the nose with my thinking as you read, Kathi. I have to say that I hated Lysaer through most of the books! There are a few times that I felt sorry for h..."

Riiigghht!


message 19: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments Kathi wrote: "Janny wrote: "If I had to hazard a guess - people don't read into Lysaer's chapters as deeply?? and there are so many layers..."
I don't think that's true, Janny, that the readers don't read Lysaer..."


Definitely not true in your case, Kathi, based on your perceptive post! And likely not true for a lot of readers - but a few admitted to skimming over these bits, in a discussion sited elsewhere. (to their loss - given where the series is going. :X :) )

And yes, your observations about what you are Not Seeing matters. A Lot. Watch that space...


message 20: by Kathi, Moderator & Book Lover (new)

Kathi | 3153 comments Mod
Janny wrote: "Definitely not true in your case, Kathi, based on your perceptive post!"

Well, thanks!


message 21: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1141 comments I'm rereading this one and suddenly find myself full of questions about Enithen Tuer. We know she's a former Koriani freed by Fellowship sorcerers. We know they owe her a debt. Here are my questions:

Why do they owe her? What did she do for them?
How does she know the rituals for cutting the ties to necromancy?
Why does she know it will be her death if she helps Lysaer?
Why do spirits start to attack her?
Do the Koriani have some connections to necromancy? Especially in light of Morriel Prime's possession of Selidie?

I'm very intrigued here.


message 22: by Kerry (new)

Kerry (rocalisa) | 487 comments I just finished these three chapters. Right now I find myself still resettling my perceptions. Someone above mentioned placing the pieces ready for the next stage, and that's very much how I feel things are here.

I'm mostly feeling puzzled about Lysaer. At this point, I have no idea what aspects of what he says and does may be real, what is grounded in self-delusion and what is cold-minded manipulation of others. He can do all three, but as Kathi said, we never get enough inside him to make a judgement on his true motives; instead we see him from outside and at this point, I feel I don't have enough information to follow his motives.

I can totally see Sulfin Evend's practical solution to the problem, but I don't think any of the "personas" of Lyaser's that we have seen, could do that. (Besides, where's the story then?) So I'm figuring there will be a confrontation of some kind of come. I just don't know (as I commented in the previous paragraph) whether he is truly standing against evil, he's so caught up in this whole "Avatar of the Light" shtick that he really believes the whole "cleanse the darkness from the government I created" thing he told others, or what. I shall keep reading to find out.

I agree that Sulfin Evend is going to have some conflicting loyalties and I actually look forward to that, as he is such a complicated and fascinating character who will be facing complicated and fascinating issues.

I do kind of feel sorry for Fionn Areth. I mean yes, he's acting like a brat, but given his life so far, his behaviour and beliefs do actually make sense. I'd rather people were trying to help him see the truth rather thank mocking him for his ignorance. I've seen the parallel between him and Dakar (and the irony that it is Dakar who currently has what was Arithon's role for him, to play for Fionn Areth). I look forward to seeing it unfolding further.

It's fascinating to start seeing glimpses of Davien's motives. I say glimpses, as I'm sure there's much still to be revealed, but we're certainly starting to get the sense that he had reasons for what he did and blindly calling him the Betrayer without knowledge of those nuances is probably short sighted.

Also, I'm fascinated (I'm using that word a lot, aren't I?) by Arithon's new perceptions and especially the flowering of his s'Ahelas foresight.

So lots and lots and lots of building blocks here and lots to look forward to reading.

As an aside, I read Fugitive Prince and Grand Conspiracy on my iPhone and made highlights and annotations there, but I can't get them off again, so I've slowly been manually transferring them to my Kindle copies of the books. I think I make way too many notes! I ended up with 256 notes and marks for Fugitive Prince and 258 for Peril's Gate (and I was consciously trying for less in that one to speed up my reading). I still have to find out how many for Grand Conspiracy.


message 23: by Kerry (new)

Kerry (rocalisa) | 487 comments Oh, and I totally agree with Sandra's questions about Enithen Tuer. I hope we get answers to them. In a way, she's been such a minor character, but I think she's done something major here and I'd like to know her story as well.


message 24: by Helen (new)

Helen I only popped on this for a nosy and you've got me wanting to go grab my copy for a re-read. Such a fantastic series. I know that Lysaer is a victim in a sense but that still didn't stop me cursing him! Although you do then suddenly get filled with sympathy for him.


message 25: by Kerry (new)

Kerry (rocalisa) | 487 comments Helen, I'm not even caught up yet and when I was transferring the notes for Fugitive Prince, I was all ready for an immediate reread myself! They're those sorts of books, aren't they?


message 26: by Aussie500 (last edited Nov 11, 2011 04:18PM) (new)

Aussie500 | 35 comments I always thought of Lysaer as a victim, he never had any chance of fighting that curse at the start, unlike Arithon he had no training to help him fight against the wraith that possessed him. Lysaer had no friends back then who were not light blinded, the only one who could have helped was cursed to be his enemy. We could see before the failed coronation at Etarra how far Lysaer had come from what he had been, and also how he was reacting to the dreams of what was to come. Lysaer was cursed to kill Arithon, and his sense of justice was warped to think that was right. The curse blinds him to conscience or remorse for what he did trying to kill Arithon, so he feels no guilt. We were also given a chance to see how the curse was gradually warping how Lysaer felt about other things not directly related to Arithon. The Prince who charged down the hill at Avenor, might have lied to himself to justify his reason for not wanting the prisoners enslaved, but still his sense of justice reacted rightly. Later it was warped enough he did not even blink when consigning Tysans captured clansmen to slavery. Same as for Arithon, the curse was becoming stronger and more invasive over time.

Even though Sulfin Evend might have started out just a blind follower of the light, and how he was dumped at Lysaer's feet seemingly by a miracle, reinforced that, by the start of Traitor's Knot he is not so blind to Lysaer's faults. And then Lysaer is finally given a chance, when Sulfin Evend, is willing to take a caithdein's oath in order to help him. Even though Tysan's caithdein was his enemy, Lysaer did end up with a cathdein from that lineage, who's wakened talents as a truth seer finally give him a chance to fight against the curse.

And those wondering about some of the questions concerning Enithen Tuer should closely inspect the entry under her name in the glossary for Traitor's Knot.


message 27: by Kerry (new)

Kerry (rocalisa) | 487 comments Aussie500, I'm not going to risk looking at the glossary for Traitor's Knot until I've finished, but thank you for the suggestion. I'll remember it for later.

Yes, I pretty much agree with everything you've said about Lysaer. And Janny writes him so well that just as we get to see how he is a victim, he does something so annoying and/or awful and I get annoyed with him all over again and the reminder of that gets lost. But he never stood a chance against the MW, something that is made clear when it happened and when Arithon relives it in Davien's Maze. The MW targeted Lysaer because he was the weak link.

So I'm very glad that it looks like he might finally have that chance. And Sulfin Evend seems an appropriate caithdein for him, because he want to save Lysaer, but at the same time, I'm guessing his heritage (even if he wants to deny it) will indeed tie him to the land. Does this count as the best of both worlds? I certainly think it is Lysaer's best chance.


message 28: by Aussie500 (last edited Feb 22, 2012 09:01PM) (new)

Aussie500 | 35 comments Sulfin Evend's blood oath tied him to the land, Enithen Tuer made sure of that before she let him have that knife. When he repeats his oath later in the presence of a Fellowship Sorcerer that binding will become even stronger.

The glosaary in Stormed Fortress also sheds more light on Enithen Tuer's background, so those that have read that far could find more answers there.


message 29: by Shel, Moderator (new)

Shel (shel99) | 2175 comments Mod
So good to be immersed in this world again! Nice to have some funny scenes after the gut-wrenching ending of Peril's Gate. Poor Fionn Areth!

It will be VERY interesting to see how Sulfin Evend handles the conflicting loyalties that are bound to arise from his new oath.

More to say, but typing is a pain on the iPhone so it'll have to wait until I'm at a computer again!


message 30: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1141 comments Shel wrote: "So good to be immersed in this world again! Nice to have some funny scenes after the gut-wrenching ending of Peril's Gate. Poor Fionn Areth!

It will be VERY interesting to see how Sulfin Evend h..."


I'm going to enjoy reading your comments. It is a nice world to be immersed in, isn't it?


message 31: by Aussie500 (new)

Aussie500 | 35 comments As so many of the threads converge for Destiny's Conflict we definitely need more readers willing to share their impressions. The more ideas and speculation on the previous books, the more fun while we try to guess where it is all leading.


message 32: by Aussie500 (new)

Aussie500 | 35 comments Janny any chance we could please have a translation of t'an li'arient Lu-haine? Just for the budding linguists chasing clues. Thanks.


message 33: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments Aussie500 wrote: "Janny any chance we could please have a translation of t'an li'arient Lu-haine? Just for the budding linguists chasing clues. Thanks."

With pleasure, Annette.

The simple answer: this is a desperately adamant summons to bring a discorporate Sorcerer's help to the scene as swiftly as possible.

The in-depth answer, with the fully revealed layers of subtlety: you've spotted (if memory serves me with accuracy,) the ONLY phrase of actualized Paravian yet written out in the books that are published to date.

The Paravian language, if you haven't guessed, marks and measures the flow of energy: from unformed creation, or concept, to realized form.

The passive, or descriptive mode merely identifies things as they are, and is used for the purpose of communication.

The active mode shifts the emphasis and raises the effect to what amounts to a reactive command. This is the 'actualized' form, and it WILL impact reality, and in absolute terms, directly influence the named currents as spoken, with literal precision.

For the completists among you, here's the detailed 'breakdown' of (it was Dakar's) actualized summons:

t'an
The 'a' denotes the void before creation (feminine potential), made manifest in the world by the suffix 'n', (masculine state of a thing, made as form) - combined to 'an, which seeds the 'concept for 'one', or beingness, established by the lower range suffix 'n' - we have 'an,' or one anchored in reality, then augmented by the DOUBLED masculine (spirit form, concept unformed, yet ordered by a framed intent) aspect which denotes a Named flow toward consciousness - t' - but here, inflected as a PREFIX, this 'actualizes' the summons, and opens an energetic gateway of ACTIVE connection (one step in vibration above precipitate reality) to 'call into realized summons HERE/NOW' that 'one' as beingness, now influenced into a state of flux.

li - is the word for exalted grace/and the implication of free will cooperation.

arient is the root word, 'ar' - which is the etheric cord, or tie to vitality that infuses all spirit with life, and 'ient' which is the suffix for the emphatic form - the GREATEST, or the MOST, if you will, frame of referent - Dakar has added this as a plea for the voluntary co-operation of a disembodied entity (Luhaine) far more powerful than himself.

Luhaine's name follows, identifying the Fellowship Sorcerer being called upon to appear.

In the scene in chapter one, Dakar has appended his 'demand' for the sorcerer's intercession at the tail end of some gibberish doggerel, hoping to hide his intent as long as possible from the enemy ranged against him.

It's a lot of abstract complexity, yup...Don't panic! A reader doesn't need to delve THIS deeply into the language to understand the events in the books. I just like to know what I am talking about, all the way down to the roots - it keeps the concepts consistent, throughout, and lends a sense of grounding to what amounts to a world where the supernatural functions as part and parcel of the reality of Athera.


message 34: by Aussie500 (new)

Aussie500 | 35 comments Thanks Janny, that gives a much better understanding of 'ar' and you never really covered 't' in any of the other phrases or words.

*aussie madly runs away with the 't' yelling gleefully.*


message 35: by Alissa (new)

Alissa | 171 comments Sandra wrote: "I'm rereading this one and suddenly find myself full of questions about Enithen Tuer. We know she's a former Koriani freed by Fellowship sorcerers. We know they owe her a debt. Here are my quest..."

Totally. Who is Enithen Tuer???? Why is her life tied to the fact she helped Sulfin? Will we know her identity?? We saw her performance, we know what Sandra outlined, and since Sulfin knew her and where to find her, I think there is a connection with Hanshire and the Koriani who are and were in service of the Mayor, she says "After the scandal that destroyed your grand-uncle, surely you recognized Lysaer's malaise as a blood-bound tie of compulsion?". So I wonder if that scandal is connected to her leaving the Koriani. Could she be connected to Sulfin's bloodline?


message 36: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1141 comments Alissa wrote: "Sandra wrote: "I'm rereading this one and suddenly find myself full of questions about Enithen Tuer. We know she's a former Koriani freed by Fellowship sorcerers. We know they owe her a debt. H..."

She's the one where Elaira first saw the princes in Curse. Asandir took them there on their journey to the ancient Paravian ruins to defeat the curse. At this point in the story not much is known about her. I had my suspicions tho about the Koriathain use of necromancy - the souls all trapped in the crystals, Morriels possession of Selidie, and other things. Not as black as the Gray Cult, but still...


message 37: by Aussie500 (last edited Mar 11, 2015 03:53PM) (new)

Aussie500 | 35 comments At this point, that Sulfin Evend knew where to find Enithen Tuer, I would think she has been there a while. Why would she be hiding in Erdane? Or was she there keeping an eye on the necromancers maybe, she would need the protection of the knife from them, although I thought the warped spirits that tried to claim her were Koriani. Enithen if she was keeping an eye on things in Erdane for the Fellowship, would then know what mischief the necromancers had been up to. It might also explain the debt the Fellowship owed her? Or the debt could have been that she was waiting there to pass the knife and knowledge on so Lysaer could be saved.

Sulfin Evend probably had heard of her in Hanshire, but if there were any blood ties between them we might have to wait for the last book to see the connection. There were no clues to it that I could see, but Janny is devious when it comes to hiding things in the books, to spring on us later.

If I was to go for a tie to Hanshire, it would be the old initiate Cadgia, who had once worn jade rings. Janny never did give us the Paravian meaning of her name. I associate jade with Hanshire, because of something Janny mentioned in Traitor's Knot, something I am expecting Janny to return to later.


message 38: by Alissa (new)

Alissa | 171 comments The old seeress relinquished the knife and got attacked. The warped spirits may be Koriani, and the Koriani may be using some kind of necromancy with all their oath-binding, and Morriel's possession of Selidie gives much opening to thoughts, too! Thank you very much for your insight!!
And the Fellowship freed Enithen, but they have a debt to her so she undoubtedly performed some service, I guess either she was in Erdane to keep an eye on the necromancers for the sorcerers or she was there exactly to receive Sulfin when the time came, or both.
I'm quite curious about what, exactly, happened in Hanshire that Sulfin Evend was privy of, and why he knew how to locate the old witch in Erdane. :)

About the Koriani and the Waystone which has malicious trapped spirits, my earlier speculations went more to the wraiths of Desh-thiere.

Cadgia and jade, I hope to see the connection, too :):)


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