Breaking Dawn (The Twilight Saga, #4) Breaking Dawn discussion


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message 2: by Kat (new) - rated it 2 stars

Kat Helgeson Meyer doesn't owe us an explanation. If she doesn't want to defend her book, she's probably going to lose some fans, but that's her business. Who are we to demand answers of her?


Annalisa You're right. She absolutely doesn't. But do you think we owe her one? She appears to think the backlash is from surprise at the unexpected. If I had written a book that had so angered many of my fans, I think I would want to know why exactly they were upset. I suppose that's what reviews are for--although they aren't always kind constructive criticism. I don't think anyone should be mean to her, but I do think it would be useful for her to understand why the book failed many people so she can avoid the same pitfalls in the future. And while I don't think she owes us anything, for me it has been helpful to understand where she was coming from and what she intended with the book.


message 4: by Kat (new) - rated it 2 stars

Kat Helgeson You make a fair point, Annalisa, but from all I have gathered Meyer doesn't seem to want an explanation of what we dislike; in fact she seems to be writing off the complaints of those of us who didn't like the book. Wasn't there some comment that those who don't like it just don't get it yet? Or something? That doesn't sound like she's prepared to take constructive criticism seriously. We don't owe her an explanation unless she either asks for one or openly joins the discussion. Right now she's playing defense, and I'm not interested in playing offense.


message 5: by Annalisa (last edited Aug 11, 2008 01:22PM) (new) - rated it 1 star

Annalisa You are absolutely correct. If I were her I would be upset and heartbroken. I don't think I'd want to hear what people spewed at me in anger either. It's only natural for her to take the defensive and when someone is out to defend themselves, they won't listen to any point from the offense, especially when it is attacked. I just hope she has a friend somewhere who can kindly sit her down and explain it to her. I don't know why I care so much that she understands. Maybe for some closure :).


message 6: by Abby (new) - rated it 1 star

Abby I suggest watching the interviews on Entertainment Weekly's website concerning this book. It is clear that Stephenie Meyer never intended to have a career as an author, that she writes purely for her own enjoyment. The only reason we have the Twilight series in our hands is because she so loved the story that she wanted to share it with others. As a writer myself, I might feel taken aback by all the criticism if I were in her situation, but it wouldn't necessarily make me regretful for what I had written if I believed in it like Stephenie believes in Breaking Dawn. I have a huge beef against the book and I wish it had turned out differently, but I'm not about to sign a petition asking for an explanation or apology. Stephenie is happy with the series and that's what ultimately matters. We should be thankful she at least shared the first three books with us. I for one know I will love those books for a long time regardless of how I feel about breaking dawn


message 7: by Jayda (last edited Aug 11, 2008 12:12PM) (new) - rated it 2 stars

Jayda I'd like to point out that anyone who had a truly serious problem with the final book, Breaking Dawn, to the point where they're putting up a petition that has pretty much no point to it, obviously are not true fans. I loved the book and personally do not see the problem. I love the books previously, but I don't see what the HUGE deal is. IT'S A BOOK. Deal with it and read the first three instead.


message 8: by Kat (new) - rated it 2 stars

Kat Helgeson Agreed, Abby, and I'll add that people who are writing for their own enjoyment should never be afraid to do so because of what the reaction of others might be! In fact, where Harry Potter got more people reading, I'd say this series might get more people writing, as people say to themselves "I could do this!"


message 9: by Jessica (last edited Aug 11, 2008 01:01PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Jessica I think it is asinine that you would want anyone to sign a petition because of the way an author chose to end a characters story. You must have tons of free time in your hands to put forth that much effort.. get a life.


message 10: by Lisa (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lisa Well,
thats just too bad that you didn't like it. Too bad. Get over it. The book wasn't written for YOU to like it in the ways you wanted...


Danielle I guess I don't spend that much time obsessing over the books I read. Who cares?


Lizzey I don't mean to be rude, but nobody cares how you would write the book. Go write your own book if you're so concerned. Stephanie Meyer wrote what she imagined would happen, not what you imagine. And what's this silly nonsense about how disapointed you are that she was pressured by her fans and altered her writing. What do you think you're doing if not pressuring to alter? Many "classics" are extremely controversial, but thay are still published and loved.


Lizzey I don't mean to be rude, but nobody cares how you would write the book. Go write your own book if you're so concerned. Stephanie Meyer wrote what she imagined would happen, not what you imagine. And what's this silly nonsense about how disapointed you are that she was pressured by her fans and altered her writing. What do you think you're doing if not pressuring to alter? Many "classics" are extremely controversial, but thay are still published and loved.


message 14: by Keara (new) - rated it 1 star

Keara I totally agree, Jessica.
Stephenie Meyer does NOT need to explain to us why she chose to end her book the (crappy) way she did. The book was NOT made to suit EVERY fan's needs. Some people don't even like 'Twilight'. She can't make everybody happy. If she could, I would call her an AMAZING miracle worker. Nobody can make everybody happy with one thing.
So, if you hate the book; give it to somebody, throw it away, bury it in a box in the back of a closet in your basement, or just don't read it again. MOVE ON WITH THE LIFE THAT YOU HAVE (you don't need to scream to everybody on the internet that this is the suck-iest book ever, we've heard it from everybody else in the country, soon to be the world).


Alyssa I agree 100% with Lizzey.
A large chunk of your "petition" is giving your alternatives with what YOU think should have happened in the book. It's NOT your book and they're NOT your characters. Sorry to be harsh, but stop whining over something you don't have any control over. Stephenie doesn't owe anybody an explanation. And I personally think she did a great job.


message 16: by Toni (new) - rated it 1 star

Toni I still think the returning your book idea was the best and most efficient way of showing how you felt, while gettting your money back.

While I can understand your disatisfaction, it seems people are too personally invested when they start demanding apologies and explanations. Although I admit, I'd like an explanation for the WTF that was the entire pregnancy plot, I won't die if I never get one.

I agree with Keara. It's a waste of time and energy to go through this kind of trouble.


message 17: by Leah (new) - rated it 5 stars

Leah I'm really confused- I'm mean REALLY confusded! What is everyone so upset about? I just finished reading the book and didn't see any reason why people would be upset or not like it? Did I miss something?????????


message 18: by Leah (new) - rated it 5 stars

Leah Okay I just read the petition.... now I know what some people are upset about. It's completely silly. I'm 100% satisfied with the ending- in fact I was relieved with the way she chose to end it. Anyway I'm not confused anymore. Hopefully everyone gets over it, enjoys it for what it is and has fun seeing the movie!!!!! :)


message 19: by Alisha (last edited Aug 11, 2008 05:45PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Alisha I started to read the petition when my curiousity got to m and I wondered what it was all about. However, I couldn't even get half way through it before I couldn't take it anymore. Does this mean I am allowed to go and write a petition for ever other book or movie for that matter that didn't end the way I wanted it to or that didn't develop the characters the way I wanted to see them. Yeah I probably could, but I would be an idiot. Seriously people this was a fiction and Meyers is a great writer. You think you can do better go ahead, but why does she owe an explaination for anything?


Shannon She doesn't OWE anyone an explanation. Even if the petition generates one (which I doubt), what good will it do? It isn't as if Breaking Dawn will suddenly be undone.

That said, I am feeling a perverse sense of satisfaction at the completely awkward situation all of this bad press has generated for SM. I know, it's mean. Usually, I'm not that mean. BUT, I did bristle a little at the interview she did with EW, as I apparently fall into the category of people that "don't get it yet". I'm also still a little bitter about reading Breaking Dawn, since it completely altered the Twilight series experience for me (and I once considered it a favorite guilty pleasure). AND I'm also irritated that the publisher completely refused to acknowledge that the response to this book was anything less than perfect. So, while I don't expect an apology (which is ridiculous), I think it's kind of fun to hold their feet to the fire.


Sarah I totally disagree with the comment that Stephenie used the imprinting as a way out of a hard spot. Without the imprinting, the wolves would also have been the enemy. Having Jacob imprint on Bella's daughter created a situation where the wolves would also protect Nessie with their lives. I think that Stephenie has far surpassed what most authors have done. She has created a world for each of us as readers that we can crawl into and enjoy along with the characters. I also agree with several of the other comments in that if you are THAT into this book that you need an apology because the book didn't turn out the way you wanted it to then you should get a life!!


message 22: by Sarah (new) - rated it 1 star

Sarah Sorry, I don't think SM will take the petition seriously and she shouldn't. It's ridiculous- the story is over move on. Get involved with reading a new series and let your mind leave it. Believe me, I've started doing this and I am feeling a lot better.


Noelle I agree with all of you to the fact that SM does not owe us any explanation on her book. This is true. She's the author and she can write whatever she pleases.

Then why did I sign the petition? Well, because she did make a mistake. When asked about the fans backlash, she gave her idea of why we didn't like it as the "Rob Effect". That we would warm up to the book after a while because apparently we're to stupid to get it the first time we read it. I completely lost respect for SM when she said this, and yes, I want her to explain why she would ever think her fans were that dumb. What she should have said is I don't care what anyone thinks rather than blame her crappy book on us.

Robert Pattinson is an actor who was casted when we had preconceived notions on who he was as an actor (Cedric Diggory). We warmed up to him because we realized he could embody Edward and do a good hob and not be the same person he was in HP. That in no way is the same situation as the book. A book can't change it's words. Once you read it, it's not changing. I'm not going to wake up tomorrow morning and realize I liked the book.

SM, I believe, owes us an explanation as to why she would blame the backlash on her book on something as stupid as the "Rob Effect" and blame it all on us. No SM. Although you don't owe us anything, Breaking Dawn was wack and it was nobody but your own fault. It's called the "Bad Book Effect".




message 24: by Abby (new) - rated it 1 star

Abby I have heard a lot of people voicing discontent about the whole "Rob Effect" comment. I had to watch the interview for myself to see what all the fuss was about. I think her comment is being somewhat blown out of proportion and the wrong connotations are being applied to it. I don't think she is blaming her fans for her book's lack of success. I think she means that just as we each had our own idea of who the perfect Edward would be, we each had our own idea of the perfect ending to the series. This was by far the biggest book for fans, it was the conclusion, the final adventures of Bella and Edward. Of course we all had preconceived notions about what should take place in the story. I think by calling it "The Rob Effect" she is saying that (hopefully) once her fans let go of the ideals that they held for the final book, they can accept it and maybe even like/love it for what it is, just as most of us have come to love the idea of Rob as Edward. I don't think that my opinions about the book will ever change, but I also don't consider Meyer's comment an insult to my own intelligence. It's always been clear that she cares about and appreciates her fan base, so I don't think she was meaning to insult anyone - she just sounded like she believes the hype and expectations hurt the reception of the book and that she hopes it will later grow to be more well-received.


message 25: by Kat (new) - rated it 2 stars

Kat Helgeson Is there somewhere I can read a transcript of what she said regarding the "Rob effect"?


Leslie It's funny, but now that I've read Breaking Dawn, I think Robert Pattinson is perfect for the part. I didn't for the first three, but the character becomes more what I believe he, as an actor, can pull off. I'm not meaning to 'slam' him, but Henry Cavill could never have been the Edward in Breaking Dawn!


Shannon Helkat,
I don't know about a transcript but you can watch the interview at EW.com. It's in one of the first 2 or 3 segments.


message 28: by Kat (new) - rated it 2 stars

Kat Helgeson Ok, I have just seen the interview...

Meyer didn't choose her words carefully enough, obviously, but she really didn't come across to me as calling anyone stupid. It sounded to me like the point she was trying to make was that fans were disappointed in the book because they didn't get the specific ending they were hoping for, but once they had a few days to accept that whatever they'd been thinking wasn't going to happen, they'd start to warm up to the story.

I don't think this is remotely TRUE. Fans dislike this book because of the quality (or lack thereof) of story, In other words, it's not simply that the story was different from what I expected; it's that it was different and not good.

But I'm not offended by Meyer's comment. I don't think she's saying I'm too stupid to understand her story, just that her story didn't end the way I was hoping. This much, at least, is correct.


Shannon I personally think it's a little smug and narcissistic of her to not even entertain the possibility that some of her fans objected to the QUALITY of the book. I would've had so much more respect if she'd just said, "yeah, I know a lot of fans are upset, but I really can't go back and rewrite the story." Instead, she took it upon herself to assume that people were only upset because they were cheated of some preconceived ending and would eventually come to like the story the way it is written. Better to have kept her mouth shut on the topic, in my opinion.


message 30: by Abby (last edited Feb 25, 2009 02:36AM) (new) - rated it 1 star

Abby Hellkat, I agree with you. I think she just had the wrong idea of why we were all upset. But it's obvious why she doesn't understand that Breaking Dawn was so far off from what all of us expected. I was surprised to find out that she wrote Breaking Dawn before New Moon and Eclipse, and essentially had wanted to make it the follow up to Twilight. THAT would have been an absolute nightmare. But I think we have to understand that in Stephenie's mind, this is how the story was always going to be. It's not as if she just barfed it out after Eclipse (like it really seems). Her publishing company strongly suggested her to write New Moon and Eclipse so that Bella could at least be out of high school in Breaking Dawn. I think the addition of those two books helped her in that they really complemented each other and Twilight, and made us love the story and the characters even more. But it hurt her because we were all that much more invested when she dropped the big stinking bombshell that Breaking Dawn was. Now that I know this horrid book was always coming, I'm just glad I got to read New Moon and Eclipse instead of skipping straight to it after Twilight. If you watch more of the interviews on EW.com, she does address more of the specific plot elements like Renesmee and Jacob's imprinting. It's interesting to hear how she sees all of it, and it's clear that this has been a part of the story in her mind for so long that she just can't see how incongruous it seems.




message 31: by niamh (new) - rated it 1 star

niamh Shannon I completely agree with you. I found snippets of the book very enjoyable and like the author of the petition it annoyed me that the quality wasnt consistent through the book itself and with the other three books.

I have little understanding about the "business" side of the book industry but i know that alot of writers are under pressure to get books out and write a book a year but as the final installment of a very popular series a little extra time would have helped with the editing and finish of this book. to me it felt carelessly thrown together. and people may think that the author doesn't owe anything to their fans about were or how the book turned out
( I could debate that for hours) but they do owe us the respect to give us a quality end product , in grammar spell checking and continuity - for example a contents page for the first part of the book but none for the second and third parts.


message 32: by Ranata (new) - added it

Ranata Clark Jayda, I'm sorry but that's not the point. It is NOT just a book. You invest time, energy and MONEY into these books and you invest yourself into the story. It might be "just a book" to you but people read to escape and if they don't like the book, why's so many people pissed about it? If you liked it, great but don't tell someone else "oh it's just a book" cuz so is the Bible but tons of people would ream you for it.

I personally don't think a petition will change anything but I do think Stephenie should take into consideration that not everyone was totally in love with her ending. I'm glad so many people loved it but those that did not should not be told to get over it or that it's just a book.


message 33: by Ranata (new) - added it

Ranata Clark I think it's ridiculous to start a petition because what are you solving, really? She does not need to say I'm sorry that you hated my book because there are 545566444 people that loved it as much as you hated it.

I personally exchanged my book for something better and I don't hate Stephanie or think she's lame, I just thought her final installment was lame. Doesn't mean she's a bad person or should quit writing. Just means this is my opinion.

It's really amazing me that people are telling those that did not like the book to get over it and you're stupid but it's okay for those that did like it to spout off about how much it didn't suck to them. We all have opinions here and they really shouldn't be told to get over it because you might not agree.


message 34: by Lori (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lori I think a lot of people's expectations for this book is part of what ruined it for them. This book was built up so high that there is no way the expectation could be met. And hasn't anyone every read a book series that left you disappointed at the end? I have. And never even considered attacking the author for it. Demanding apologies...give me a break. Stephenie roughed out this book before anyone even read Twilight. This has always been the ending. If I knew the end of the series before anyone else and was asked specific questions where the answer would give everything away (and not answering would also give it all away), I would skirt around my answer just like she did. (referring to the vampires having babies)

I understand that you invest your time, energy and money into these books, but that is your choice to do so. No one forced you to buy and read the book. You have no one to blame for your disappointment.

A petition, come on.


message 35: by Kat (new) - rated it 2 stars

Kat Helgeson I just clicked and read some of the signatures on that petition. They make me ashamed of my opinion. I have been vocal about the fact that I didn't love this book, but "the undersigned" on the petition were so shockingly rude and needlessly cruel, it almost makes me want to switch sides just on principle.

I have said again and again that people who loved this book don't need to insult those of us who didn't. Well, that's a two way street. Verbally attacking the author and encouraging people to burn a book is inexcusable.


Shannon Yeah, some of the comments on that petition are WAY over the top. I wish some people could find a way to express themselves intelligently.....


message 37: by Diabla81 (last edited Aug 12, 2008 07:18PM) (new) - rated it 1 star

Diabla81 I just don't get all this effort, a petition is so unnecesary. This is not the first time that I was disapionted with an ending. To me, part of the reason why I love to read is that I get involved in the story, the story sparks something in me , it makes my mind wonder outside everyday thoughts, and it forces me to think regardless if I agree with the author's point of view or not.
I love the twilight series an although BD was something that kinda broke my heart, I can not deny that I loved the dialogue that it sparked up. I got to read some of the most insightful views ( i.e. Helkat14) not only on the book but other topics as well.

ps. Leslie, I had the same tought about Robert Pattison!




message 38: by Lori (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lori One thing I loved about Goodreads is the comments posted on these boards. "What do you think of this?" or "I would like some other thoughts about this..." I have been just sad about how the discussions have turned. It has almost turned into an all-out war against the author. Are people really no better than this? Why can't things be discussed in a mature manner? If you still have a problem with points of view, so be it. But I feel things have gotten completely out of control.


message 39: by Kat (new) - rated it 2 stars

Kat Helgeson Lori - Bummer! I keep seeing "one new post" and getting excited, and then it's just this one again! I think you have a good point though.

With the exception of the petition, I really don't feel like anyone's attacking the author. It seems like people have stayed away from that, which is great. I'm happy that we've been able to discuss not only plot points, but also the public reaction to the book. At this point most of us probably get why some liked it and some didn't, and I think it's good that there's more to discuss.

I've actually been really happy with how calm and intelligent the discussion here has been for the most part. When I first posted, I was a little nervous, thinking I would be attacked for not liking the book, and while that's happened a little bit, for the most part it's all been mature and pretty fun.


Shannon Just a little update on this petition thing......The author (Heather Faust over on the Amazon boards), sent a copy of the petition to Seth, Stephenie Meyer's brother. She got a response from him this afternoon, which was not kind, as you can imagine. But, here's the funny thing: this petition has DISAPPEARED completely if you Google it. I Googled it earlier today to see how many sigs she'd collected, and it popped up first thing. This afternoon, I was reading the threads over on Amazon and I Googled it again and got NOTHING. It's still out there, but I had to go back to a link on a message board to look at it. Coincidence? Ummmm, no.
I don't care if you agree with the petition or not, THAT'S censorship!


message 41: by Autumn (new) - added it

Autumn Doughton I do think the petition is a little silly. BUT, discussion about the book is great. It doesn't matter if you like it or not (I didn't)... analysis and polite debate wonderful and actually cathartic. It's when you start getting angry or consumed that you need to find a more positive outlet.
In my humble opinion, disappointment about this book is completely valid and should be expressed.


message 42: by Kat (new) - rated it 2 stars

Kat Helgeson Autumn - any reaction to any book is valid and should be discussed - I agree. Stifling these discussions is what causes people to do stupid things like book burning.

Shannon - do we know it's censorship? Maybe the author of the petition chose to take it down.


Alicia I got this email from Heather Faust (the author of the petition) today:

Here is his letter:

Heather,
First, let me assure you that I will not forward this email to Stephenie. You say that you are not looking to hurt her, but it would be ignorant to believe that criticism of any kind does not hurt the person to whom it is directed. I didn't even forward any of the 35 emails that I received today telling me (or Stephenie) how much they loved Breaking Dawn, how the series changes their lives, etc.
There are a few other reasons why I would not forward the link to this "petition." (By the way, you have heard that online petitions never generate results, right?). I disagree that it is "well written." Besides the grammar mistakes (which are not hard to overlook), you address the letter to Stephenie, but by the end of the first paragraph you refer to "Meyer" in the third person. I am not sure if you are speaking to her or not. Also, the "signatures" (which are completely invalid) are not just names, but a discussion board. I went to one page and found three people defending Breaking Dawn and saying things like "I am surrounded by self absorbed teenagers or adults that think they can write better books and never do!"
And, although I got very bored and wasn't able to read the entire "petition," I want to try to answer a few of your main points (although I'm sure that Stephenie's answers would be a lot better than mine):
#1 and #2: At the end of Eclipse, Alice specifically says that nobody has ever made the conscious decision to become a vampire, and so none of them had any idea how Bella would handle the entire process.
#3 and #4 (and everything else in your : These books are fiction. They are filled with FICTIONAL characters that Stephenie made up all by herself. In an attempt to keep the books clean and not make young girls think about things that they don't need to think about, no other book mentioned anything about reproductive systems. They are Stephenie's characters, she can decide anything that she wants.

And finally, Heather, your letter is not respectful at all. It is libelous in many instances. I would be embarrassed to say such things about someone who I have never met.

--Seth

So... there it is. I have no problem with you posting it. I think it's quite funny myself.

And, if you'd like, you can post my response to those that are attacking me:

I'm sorry so many of you are offended by free speech. This petition hurts NO ONE. You may say that it is accomplishing nothing- but it upset you enough to get you to take time out of your day to respond to it, didn't it? As long as people continue to respond it will continue to be effective.

I'd also like to point out that no one is asking for a rewrite, and no one is asking her to apologize for the book she wrote. It's simply my opinion, which over a thousand people happen to agree with. It was a letter that I wrote and some folks suggested that I post it. I did, and this is what has happened.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to me, though, it shows me that what I am doing is absolutely effective.

~Heather



So- you don't have to post anything, but if you want to- that would be my response.




Shannon No, the author definitely didn't take it down. Something happened. Either Google blocked it (which seems sort of extreme given the subject matter) or it's been hacked in some way. Also, it's only Google. You can still find it on Yahoo!. So it seems that an unhappy fan or someone else with a motive is trying to silence the petition.


message 45: by Kat (new) - rated it 2 stars

Kat Helgeson I'm so not understanding something here.

Heather says no one is asking for a rewrite, and no one is asking for an apology. Yet her petition all but demands an explanation. In other words, she wants Meyer to defend herself and her book.

So by definition, then, isn't the petition "offense"?

She also says that what she's doing is "absolutely effective," but I haven't seen it have any clear effect other than to piss people off.

Again, how is this not "offensive?" If all it's doing is to offend, and she says it's doing what's intended...

With that said, censorship of the thing IS inappropriate. She does have a right to express herself. I mean, how would I like it if someone deleted this post I'm making now because it doesn't support the petition?

So no, Heather, I don't hate freedom of speech. I just choose to use my own to disagree with the way you use yours.

I'm not even going to bother with what I think of Seth's letter. It's the same stuff I've been saying all along. But the bottom line is that I think he's right not to forward it on. What brother would?


message 46: by Abby (new) - rated it 1 star

Abby Wow, that reply from Seth was a little scathing, but right on. I would be embarrassed if I were her, only because it was senseless to do a petition in the first place. A petition is a request by definition, so she can't say that she wasn't asking for anything. If she only wanted her opinion to be known, she should have just posted a thread on a message board or written a review.


Shannon Well, that's how it started. It was a thread on Amazon, but a lot of people who read the thread/letter wanted to sign it and get behind it. She used the petition website to host it because it was the easiest way to get it out there.


message 48: by Kat (new) - rated it 2 stars

Kat Helgeson She also asked for signatures, though. At that point, you're not just stating your own opinion any more. You're asking for others to put some force behind it by agreeing with you. And the only reason to do that is that you want to cause some kind of reaction.


Shannon Well, I don't think there's any doubt she wants to cause a REaction. I'm just not sure if she expects SM to take any specific action-I think she would like to generate an explanation, but that is incredibly unlikely. Honestly, as much as I would like to hear answers to some of MY questions, I think SM would be foolish to acknowledge this type of "backlash" to her book. It will only open the door for people to say she's admitting something's wrong with the book and expose her to criticism from the other side of the fence.

As far as the author asking for signatures, according to her, many people asked her if they could sign it. So, she may have just been issuing a call to action for those people who'd already expressed an interest. I'm sure she's not unhappy about any additional signatures gathered, though.


Jenn "Awww Yeaaahhh" Helkat14, I was one who really liked BD, and agree that although there were faults with the quality and plotting of the book, it did not diminish my overall enjoyment of my reading experience. There are some excellent arguments on either side of the fence going on on the Amazon threads - thought you (or anyone else) might want to check it out in your spare time (if you haven't already).

http://www.amazon.com/Lovers-Defender...


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