Outlander Series discussion
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Drums of Autumn
@ Niq, sorry for the confusion, I seemed to have made a too big abridgement. Text between "..." is from the Outlandish Companion. The decision to read the DOA prologue in Brianna's voice was NOT made by DG. "Evidently, either the abridger or Ms James decided (they didn't ask me) that the prologues of the first three books should be read in Claire's voice, while DOA prologue was read in Brianna's voice." Then DG goes on explaining Brianna's and Claire's eyes.
@ Lori, as you can read in my previous message the thing of "Brianna's eyes" in DOA is uncertain, but wrong nonetheless. I'm soory, but the "blue, catlike slanted eyes" come from the Frasers, the red hair comes from Jamie's mother Ellen.I listened to the beginning of DOA by Davina Porter and to my ears she does it in the same "voice" as reading the narrative part of the books, in this case "I heard drums long before they came in sight."
She does the headings slightly different (Prt One, O Brave New World, ...)
PS: Did you read my answer to your "500 pounds" question in the Outlander thread?
Lotte wrote: "@ Niq, sorry for the confusion, I seemed to have made a too big abridgement. Text between "..." is from the Outlandish Companion. The decision to read the DOA prologue in Brianna's voice was NOT ma..."Okay. Thanks for clarifying, Lotte.
Lotte - I just read your answer to the 500 pounds thing... I'd forgotten about the initial "pain and suffering" restitution. I guess I "assumed" that the bulk of the 1st payment had been paid. But then again, so much happened in "Voyager" that I'm not sure Jamie had a chance to pay until "Drums", which could mean that Bree beat Jamie's payment.Anyway, thanks for looking all that up. I've been trying to get thru my TBR pile from the library, so I don't have late fees... so my Outlander re-read has been on the back burner. Not a bad thing, though, 'cuz once I start on one of these books, I can't seem to stop until I've gone all the way through!
Anyone know how old Jocasta is compared to Claire? "Cha ghabh mi ’n còrr, tapa leibh."
Gabaldon, Diana (2004-10-26). Drums of Autumn (p. 214). Random House, Inc.. Kindle Edition.
Ah, never mind. I found my answer.
Anyone know of a website that translates the Gaelic in Outlander into English? I'm currently using the German website, but I haven't very good German vocabulary so an English version would be helpful.
Edit: I saw mention of a discussion somewhere about Jamie's psychic abilities, and wondered whether this might account for them:
“Asgina ageli is a term that the red savages employ—the Cherokee of the mountains; I heard it from one I had as guide one time. It means ‘half-ghost,’ one who should have died by right, but yet remains on the earth; a woman who survives a mortal illness, a man fallen into his enemies’ hands who escapes. They say an asgina ageli has one foot on the earth and the other in the spirit world. He can talk to the spirits, and see the Nunnahee—the Little People.”
Gabaldon, Diana (2004-10-26). Drums of Autumn (pp. 36-37). Random House, Inc.. Kindle Edition.
Niq wrote: "Anyone know how old Jocasta is compared to Claire? Sorry, can't answer this right away, needs quite a bit computig. It cannot be too many years, as Jamie's mother was the eldest of the MacKenzie bairns and Jocasta the youngest one. And still Jocasta was the earlier one to (be) marry(ied)and Claire is (about) 5 years older than Jamie.
I was rather surprised that you use a German website for your Gaelic translation, I did not know that such a thing existed. I googled it, thouhg, and being surious tried the English version as well and found this one:
http://www.lexilogos.com/english/gael...
Though I do not have any problems with the German vocabulary, I find the English version more convenient. Give it a try!
Thanks, Lotte! I might have put Diana Gabaldon or Outlander as well as the Gaelic phrase I was looking up in the Google search bar. It gave me the German website for Diana Gabaldon.
http://www.dianagabaldon.de/sprachfue...
I am not aware of whether the English website has the same list of translations. In fact, when I tried to pull up this page again via the main webpage, I couldn't find it within the menus. :\ It'd be nice if the English website had this as well, though. I'm noticing that the webpage I listed above has corrections to the Gaelic phrases that was written in the books, which I find really neat. I did notice it was missing some of the words since I couldn't find ursiq on that page....
err, I just tried looking up ursiq using the website you gave me and I am not sure how that works since the results gave me things in Gaelic? *confused*
I might just stick with the German page I found. I suppose if I really wanted to know what it said, I could look up what I don't know on LEO - or ask you? :D
Edit: Just checked author's English website and can't find a list there.
Niq wrote: "Thanks, Lotte! I might have put Diana Gabaldon or Outlander as well as the Gaelic phrase I was looking up in the Google search bar. It gave me the German website for Diana Gabaldon.
http://www...."
Hi Niq, sorry for this confusion! I did hot check the results before forwarding this link to you. I had some experience with a French online dictionary which looked quite similar and therefore I assumed it would work in the same way. You never should, though!
I get the same Gaelic(?) words/translations as you do. They are no help. I think they want you to do a download and that's always tricky. I did a more thorough (or is it thorougher?) search this time. As there is an Irish and a Scottish Gaelic, this adds to the confusion and you also have to beware not to choose something where they would charge you.
These are my results: http://www.freelang.net/online/scotti...
I checked this site and though they also offer a download, it worked keying in the word next to Gaelic and then go to the search button. Out of your list in your previous message I just received results for the first and the last word. Would you please tell me what "Cha ghabh mi'n còrr, tapa leibh" is in English? And how you worked this out!
I was not surprised by the poor results of just 2 words out of 6. Some years ago I took a course in another Celtic language, Cymraeg=Welsh. What I still remember is the "abnormal word order" and that you can't be sure about the first letter of a word, which is changing (acc. to case, gender?) and which is rather confusing if you want to look it up in a dictionary. ... and not for verbs, this is for nouns. I think this also might apply for the Scottish Gaelic.
I also looked at the German website you mentioned above. They seem to have put a curious mix of languages there, not just Gaelic-German translations and no alphabetical order, alas. I loved to find this one: Rache = German (what else, and this for Germans!). By the way, if you need any help, I'll do my best to supply it (and my English-German dictionary is never far away). In order not to bore the others we might do it via the mail system.
PS: Nothing remained from my Welsh lessons and all the Welsh I met spoke a fluent English!
"Cha ghabh mi'n còrr, tapa leibh" - I didn't work it out. It was in the German website I posted. :)Cha ghabh mi 'n còrr, tapa leibh (Gälisch) - "Ich möchte nichts mehr, danke sehr."
Yes, they include Latin, Spanish and Chinese phrases (as well as others, I believe) that are found in the Outlander series. I just use the Control-F (Find) to search for the word I'm looking up.
Thanks so much for your help, Lotte. The new website looks much simpler to use although it didn't show up any results for ursiq. Now I'm starting to wonder whether there is such a word. I looked up ursiq + gaelic on Google search and the only result that showed up was the line in Drums of Autumn!
I am reluctantly approaching my least favorite parts of this book - Jamie and Ian v. Roger (and later Brianna). Can I just skip to the part when Roger throws up in Brianna's lap? No?
Hahaha, I have parts that I didn't want to reread, so go for it.
Hey Everyone, I finished Drums about a week ago and got to thinking (I'm into FC now), what happened to Willie after Jaime sent him to the cave when they arrived at the abandoned 'village'? I tried going back to find it, but couldn't locate it to save my life?
Jennifer, I just looked that up in The Outlandish Companion - LOL! Diana G says that, of course, he & Jamie returned home, and Willie and Lord John traveled on to Virginia. She said that with all the content, she leaves out things that seem obvious. But I guess, not always obvious to us, huh?
It is funny how some people complain about the amount of detail in DG's writing but we addicts savor every bit of detail and crave even more
I've just finished Drums and loved it even more the second time around. So much drama and emotion! I couldn't put it down and stayed up until 1:00 a.m. to finish even though I knew how it ended. :-)
Can someone remind me who Duncan is? I started reading and it jumped right back into the action and I cant for the life of me remember who Duncan is. Its been a few months since "Voyager".
I believe he was one of Jamie's fellow prisoners at Ardsmuir. He was freed when the prison was closed, but unlike Jamie who went into servitude, Duncan was left to his own devices. If memory serves it was because he had some type of affliction/handicap that would have prevented him from being any kind of servant.
Wasn't he missing an arm?
Wendy F wrote: "Wasn't he missing an arm?"He lost his arm to blood poisoning. I can't remember if the original injure occurred in prison at Ardsmuir with Jamie or during the war. He was a sailor before Cullodun. But he plays in a semi-large part in the remaining books. He has some other injuries that you will discover as you keep reading. Personally, I am kind of fond of Duncan.
Okay thanks! Like I said before its been a while since Outlander.
From a stylistic point, I dont like the structure of the book when during the Claire and Jamie chapters it suddenly breaks to Roger. I just find it difficult to follow. Its hard for me to keep the years strait and to see how much time is passing (especially in the present). I know this is random. In general Im kind of anal about my books. I read Cold Mountain and it REALLY bothered me that there wasnt dialogue in it and when there was dialogue there were not quotation marks.
I always thought that would bother me about books too, but I found that it really doesn't. Like in Chaos Walking some words are spelled phonetically, I was sure it would drive me to distraction but I adjusted really easily after a few chapters and now I think it was brilliant in terms of setting the tone.The same with Blood Red Road. It's lacking quotation marks, and again I thought it would be hard, but I adjusted and loved it. It felt more intimate.
Actually, since I'm naming them, I just read Will Grayson Will Grayson and all the even chapters are written without any capitalization. At first it was really hard to read but again, after a few chapters I adjusted.
I usually adjust to things like that even though they bug me in the beginning. It is kind of like the 5 year olds POV in Room. I thought "I talk to kids all day long this is going to drive me nuts" but I got over it as I got into the story. Why would every other chapter be with out caps? That seems weird to me.
I remember being so relieved to find out what happened to Roger, I didn't think about the transition. But other than Claire, who has the 1st person voice, everyone else provides the 3rd person perspective. So I guess I've gotten used to DG switching perspectives. I like how she often backs us up and helps us relive the same moments through someone else's eyes.Drums is probably my least favorite of this series, even though there's a LOT that I like about the book. I didn't like the whole giving-Roger-to-the-Indians thing at all. I was really angry at Jamie and Ian for a long, long time, and angry at Bree for not 'fessing up to what happened with her and Roger a lot sooner. Lizzie might still have made the mistake of thinking it was Roger who raped Bree, but somehow I think it wouldn't have all gotten so out of hand... but then again, it's probably just me.
The whole last 3rd of this book was just... harsh, IMO. I didn't like how things went or turned out. But I still love the characters and overall story.
Can you mark that as a spoiler next time because that gave away some important plot events that I haven't gotten to yet in the book.
Morgan, I'm so sorry that you got spoiled. That really stinks.I just want to explain the way these threads work (in the folder 'The Books' only), is that if you are in the Drums of Autumn you are able to speak blatantly about that book or any previous but you are to mark spoilers for any of the books that come after.
I do have a pinned thread explaining this in this same folder and I mark the folder as containing threads that may contain spoilers.
If you check out the group announcement thread I go through each folder and how they work and where you need to be aware of posting spoilers.
Again, I am sorry you got spoiled. I just wanted to warn you personally so that it doesn't continue to happen for you. Luckily Lori's post only contained information about Drums, so you still have many many surprises in store.
I don't mind transitions between characters, it reminds me of watching a show or movie on TV they always go back and forth between scenes of different characters.
I'm really sorry that my post spoiled anything for anyone... I figured anyone in the book threads knew that anything in the book was fair game for discussion. I do my best to stay within the guidelines... But I'm really sorry if my post caused trouble.
It's okay Lori, you were within the guidelines. I try to make it so that in some places you guys can talk without worrying about spoilers. I figured this was a fair compromise.
I don't know why I this just rang a bell and I put it all together. In DOA when Bree goes to see Bonnet before he's hanged, Sgt. Murchison breaks Bonnet out of Jail at the warehouse, and he hit Lord John over the head nearly killing him. Bree asks him why he did that and Bonnet asks Murchison who she was talking about and Murchison says, "Just a busy body"I always remembered the Murchison twins from Ardsmuir and Jamie killing one twin, but DUH, Murchison knew LJ from Ardsmuir too... when LJ was Governor of Ardsmuir!
You're right Jessica! I never even realized that.
I just started this book and it is so much better for me than Voyager and Dragonfly in Amber I am not sure if it because of character familiarity but I am really enjoying this book so much. It has the past and present, the young and old and intertwined together perfectly. I am really looking forward to reading the rest!
I have a question if someone can help. I am currently reading Drums of Autumn however I am little confused about what happened to the slave girl Pollyanne? The girl Claire and Jamie found while visiting the Mills last at night while Jamie was thinking over running the mills for Jocasta. They found the girl in the slave quarters in a bed, but I presumme it was not her own. It seems as though she has run away from her own quarters and came to Jocasta's slaves' quarters to have an abortion of her illigetimate child, possibly with a Sergeant? I am a little confused as to what effect this would have to Campbell.
Jamie wrote: "I just started this book and it is so much better for me than Voyager and Dragonfly in Amber I am not sure if it because of character familiarity but I am really enjoying this book so much. It has ..."This is one of my favorites. I did a lot of these on audio book, but stayed up all night finishing this one, once I hit the halfway point.
Jamie, I'm not quite sure what your question is... Pollyanne, the slave who tried to help that girl in the mill deliver her baby, was taken by Ian and the other Scottish guide (can't think of his name right now) to the Iroquois Indians, to be "adopted" by them. Jamie and Claire rode along for awhile, then branched off to see the land that Jamie was promised by the governor.
Hoping that this isn't a spoiler for you, so if you haven't read much farther in Drums, I'm going to put the rest into a spoiler tag, so you can ignore it and keep reading if you wish. (I realize that the books can contain spoilers, but since I'm still not quite sure if your question is about Pollyanne or the girl in the mill and the Campbell connection...)
(view spoiler)
Yes, Lori you have answered my question. I was confused and thought that Pollyanne and the girl in the mill were the same people but now I see that they are not and understand the connections between them and the Campbells. Thanks so much for your response.
I'm listening to this book - which will be like the 5th time I've read or listened to it - and I'm surprised that I'm a little bored, which is very scary to me. Hopefully it won't last.
Diane wrote: "I dont think jamie was acting out of character at all. His character has changed over the last 20 years he has matured and has different insight on things. Jamie understands that not all prisoners ..."It was Lizzie's fault that Jamie and Ian stopped Roger. She thought that Brianna was scared of him when he found her at the inn when actually she was mad because she had not wanted him to follow her.
After taking a couple months break from this series, I'm back in it with DoA. I'm at 45% according to my Kindle. Am I the only person who doesn't like Lord John? I just don't like him at all. If he was a woman, I'd still hate him! I wouldn't even care if he died of the measles right now. The beginning of this book was slow for me....probably didn't really start getting into it until about 200 pages in. I was in the zone!!! Now idiot has to show up with little Mr Brattypants. Jamie just referred to Lord John as his closest friend. What is that about? All the other guys he's been with in America and yet he considers LJ his bff? Sorry for the rant...just had to get this off my chest. :)
I dunno... I think Lord John knows more about Jamie than even the people in America. Besides Jamie's family at least. And they've kept in touch, even though they haven't lived near each other. So I'm not surprised that Jamie considers John his closest friend. And John did help them get out of Jamaica or whichever island they were on. I like him, but maybe Ms. Porter makes him more likable in audio than he appears on the printed page?
I've had issues with LJ ever since the conversation he had with Claire at the end of Voyager. I just can't get past the ulterior motives in his "friendship".
gertt wrote: "There is no ulterior motive to Lord John's friendship, Jamie made it perfectly clear, while still in prison, when they stood in their relationship. LJ may be in love with Jamie, but he also knows ..."Yeah, that's how I feel about it. I don't really see ulterior motives. I don't believe LJ helps Jamie because he thinks he's going to get some. He helps Jamie because he loves him, but as gertt said, knows it won't ever be more. Beyond that, LJ also respects Claire, as much as he wants to hate her, and ultimately vice versa.
Lori, you're not alone. Maybe it's the name?(LOL!) I have had serious issues with LJ, and for many of the reasons that you've listed. All I can say is that having read through the LJ series (sometimes kicking and screaming) and especially having read Lord John and the Scottish Prisoner, I calmed down.There's a lot of history between Jamie and LJ, and I don't think that we still know a lot of it. I believe there are more tidbits that will likely make themselves known the more Diana G writes the LJ series.
I've gotten over my intense dislike and distrust of LJ, even his 'motives'. I've come to realize that LJ's love for Jamie is unrequited, and both of them know it. Jamie will never, ever change his mind. But the two men have found a solid friendship and respect. LJ knows about William/Willie, and he's taken on the responsibility of being Willie's father (step-father), but the only father that Willie has known. Remember that when you're seeing him here, Willie's just lost his "mother" Isabella; and when LJ gets the measles, the poor boy is afraid of losing the only father he's known, too.
And yes, there's an uneasy relationship between LJ and Claire. Both is somewhat jealous of the other, because each has been there for Jamie when the other couldn't be. And each has a child, of sorts, of Jamie's in his or her keeping. But Claire has Jamie's eternal love; LJ does not and knows he never will. As much as these two would like to be enemies, they're not. LJ respects Claire's healing abilities, and he knows that if Jamie is so devoted to her, she must really be something. And Claire knows that there must be something about LJ, or Jamie wouldn't call him friend and respect him and his opinion so much. So the two find a sort of friendship/respect in Drums, but their friendship progresses as the books do. (Now I can't wait for you to read "Echo"!)
Just putting my two cents in... and letting you know that you're not alone. But even in "Drums", LJ provides a service to Jamie and his family that no one else could. And that's part of what helped me change my mind about LJ. That, and reading his series, because I realized that LJ really is an honorable man. He's like Jamie in many ways. And that helped me get past all of that and start to see LJ as who he is, not just someone interfering with Jamie's & Claire's lives.
My advice to you is, hang in there! You feel the way that you do, and you interpret the story and characters the way that you do; not everyone will see everything the same way, but there's always someone who can relate to what you see. And plenty of folks to discuss it with and perhaps, to help you get other POVs on the whole thing.
Lori McD wrote: "Now I can't wait for you to read "Echo"!)"DITTO!
Jamie just referred to Lord John as his closest friend. What is that about? All the other guys he's been with in America and yet he considers LJ his bff? Sorry for the rant...just had to get this off my chest. :) Iam Guessing you have not read the Scottish Prisoner. This will help you to understand the relationship between them a lot better.
Also although Jamie has loyal men besides him in America they are not his intellectual equal, Lord John is. But most of all John has raised his son for him and is now allowing him contact, that must be truly amazing for Jamie.
Wow, I love all the thoughtful defending of LJ that is going on here! Like Ann, I was going to say that LJ being Jamie's intellectual equal was what made their relationship different from his other men. But everything that has been written here already is so true. Diana does a great job over many books of slowly building LJ into a complex character - with strenth and integrity to rival Jamie's. He's just a little more uptight then Jamie - it's probably the wig ;)
Outlander Series
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Drums of Autumn (other topics)
The Scottish Prisoner (other topics)
Cold Mountain (other topics)
But something nags me that Roger's mother had green eyes. I don't have access to short story with Roger's parents or I'd look it up. I just thought that since, to me, Roger is one of those most affected by the story in Drums that this might be his prologue.
I'd never think of Brianna for the voice of the Drums prologue; since Bree's eyes are from her father's family (Jamie and his mother Ellen)...
Interested to know what Davina Porter's take is in that audio book.
Just goes to show how easy it is to interpret differently.