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Stormed Fortress (Wars of Light and Shadow, #8)
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Wars of Light and Shadow > Stormed Fortress - the Biedar - SPOILERS!

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message 1: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 414 comments Just how powerful do you think they are?

What might make them different than the Koriathain?

Why do many of Ath's Adepts seem to be of Biedar blood?

How long have they been 'protecting' Arithon?

As an undercurrent faction, just rising to notice (in the story) what role might these people play?


Sandra  (sleo) | 1059 comments Oh, I've been thinking about them forever and I can't wait to learn more about them! I think they're very powerful indeed. They are in tune with Athera's Law of the Major Balance, which is totally opposite the Koriani.

I hadn't noticed that Ath's adepts are of Biedar blood!

I think they've been 'protecting' Arithon for a very long time indeed.

I hope they play a role in bringing down the Koriathain and in bringing the whole business to a satisfactory conclusion! I just love elements like the Biedar, so in tune with nature and the elemental spiritual facets of life.


message 3: by Amelia (last edited Jan 13, 2011 08:34AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amelia (narknon) | 523 comments Plus they are going to be a big influence on the baby. That's going to be very interesting to see what happens in the upcoming books.


Sandra  (sleo) | 1059 comments Amelia wrote: "Plus they are going to be a big influence on the baby. That's going to be very interesting to see what happens in the upcoming books."

Yes! And what baby was that, anyway?


Amelia (narknon) | 523 comments Arithon's baby. (I guess this is a spoiler thread, so I can say that.)


Sandra  (sleo) | 1059 comments I'm going to have to reread it. I thought the F7 had the mother (whatsername) in their custody.

And yes, this is a spoiler thread. I think all of them are.


message 7: by Amelia (last edited Jan 13, 2011 12:34PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amelia (narknon) | 523 comments I thought you just barely reread it. (Or haven't you got this far?)

You are right about the Fellowship having the baby, but I thought that the old Biedar magician (now I need to reread it to remember the names - plan to sometime) had helped with the conception and also kept the Koriana from being able to put any hooks in. I thought that the Fellowship were protecting the mother and daughter, but eventually she would be sent to the Biedar.


message 8: by Sandra (last edited Jan 13, 2011 04:02PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Sandra  (sleo) | 1059 comments I DID just reread it, damn it! My memory is just lousy. I think you're right. I think I got confused about the time, as the baby in the book appeared to be born right as she was going to live at Althain Tower.


message 9: by Amelia (last edited Jan 14, 2011 10:29AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amelia (narknon) | 523 comments Heck, you've probably cruised through so many books already you've forgotten again. It's amazing you read so many books last year. I wish I had time to read that many.

Back to the Biedar. This was something I always wondered about. I read the short story about their forerunners, Sundering Star, which enlightened us a little bit about how their magic works. Anyway, I've always wondered how they got to Athera. Were they part of the group the Koriana brought with them? Or did they find their own way there? Somehow I think they got there without any help from the Koriani. Maybe they came from that splinter world that Arithon and Lysaer went through before they got to Athera. That seemed like it was a very desolate, desert place, such as what was described in the short story.

As for how long they've been protecting Arithon. I remember that the cook on one of Arithon's ships was a Biedar. In a way, though, you could go back to the other short story - Child of Destiny - and say they've been protecting his bloodline long before they were born. They appeared to his ancestress and helped her make some crucial decisions that later caused her to go the world where Arithon and Lysaer were both born.

Hmm, very interesting thoughts. I'm thinking that the Biedar will end up being very important in the books ahead. I think their goals and plans are more in line with the Fellowship - but may not align exactly the same. It seems like they have very different ideas for the future of Arithon's daughter.


message 10: by Jeff (last edited Jan 14, 2011 03:23PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Jeff Watson | 46 comments So here's a question for the group. Which group do you think poses a greater threat to the continuing survival of mankind on Athera - the Koriathain? the Fellowship, or the Biedar? And... why?


Sandra  (sleo) | 1059 comments No, no, no! Amelia, the baby born on the black sands of Sanpashir, on the dark moon fallen nearest the spring equinox, is an infant, who mother dark charges to watch over the one named as Mother Dark's Chosen through the trials of the next generation.... I LOOKED IT UP. It's not Arithon's daughter, but another...

Jeff, the greatest threat to the continuing survival of mankind on Athera is clearly the Koriathain, because they have no respect for Athera at all. Selidie/Morriel cares for nothing beyond restoring the knowledge to mankind to once again travel among the stars. The one planet of Athera means nothing to her. The Fellowship and the Biedar both value mankind and know we can only survive with the law of major balance intact, Athera intact, and the Paravians once more restored....

At least that's the way I see it.


message 12: by Jeff (new) - rated it 5 stars

Jeff Watson | 46 comments Sandra, by what method would the Koriathain enact the destruction of mankind?

The Fellowship are bound by the Drakes to ensure Paravian survival even if that cost is mankind itself and I've not doubt that they have the power to do so. As to the Biedar, since we know little of their motivations isn't it possible that they could shift reality and wipe out mankind?


Sandra  (sleo) | 1059 comments Jeff wrote: "Sandra, by what method would the Koriathain enact the destruction of mankind?

The Fellowship are bound by the Drakes to ensure Paravian survival even if that cost is mankind itself and I've not d..."


They would have to upset the delicate balance of Athera in some way. I'm not sure how at this point. My feeling at the end of Stormed Fortress is that the Koriathain have lost a significant amount of power, but the sneak peeks Janny has given us of the new book are making me wonder. Still, Seshkrozchiel seems an ally in keeping the grimwards under control and they were always a threat to the survival of Athera, so what the Koriani might get up to is a little mystifying at this point. I suppose they could try something new and pernicious in the necromancy department. What do you think, Jeff?


Sandra  (sleo) | 1059 comments And as to the Biedar, I know we don't know much about their motivations, but they seem friendly with the F7 and they also are very connected with the earth, etc. They are guardians of Arithon, and now have birthed a new baby to guard Arithon's daughter. I just don't see them wiping out mankind.


message 15: by Jeff (new) - rated it 5 stars

Jeff Watson | 46 comments I think the Koriathain are distant third in terms of real power. This is best shown by Morriel engaging in intricate plans and plots that span years in an effort to gain a foothold against the Fellowship and regain that which is lost... the stars. I also think it would afford Morriel little to achieve her goal and have no humans along.

On the other hand we saw what the Biedar can do in Sundering Star (have you read this?). So to my mind the real question is who poses the greater threat to mankind - the F7 or the Biedar.

We know the F7 must act to preserve the Paravians so if the Compact is broken would that require the F7 to act in a way that would wipe out mankind or is their another solution to Paravian survival?

I agree that we don't know if the Biedar have a motivation to save/destroy mankind, but I think they have the ability and the power.

Does anyone else have an opinion?


Sandra  (sleo) | 1059 comments Jeff wrote: "I think the Koriathain are distant third in terms of real power. This is best shown by Morriel engaging in intricate plans and plots that span years in an effort to gain a foothold against the Fell..."

Hmm. Interesting line of thinking. But the F7 have the power, too, and I don't think they ever would. And Arithon certainly doesn't suspect the Biedar. And they let Sulfin Evend meet with him... all seeming to be in favor of mankind.


message 17: by Jeff (new) - rated it 5 stars

Jeff Watson | 46 comments The F7 absolutely have the power, imo, but they are bound by the Drakes to a specific task/goal. So far we haven't seen that the Biedar have any restrictions on their actions.


Sandra  (sleo) | 1059 comments Jeff wrote: "The F7 absolutely have the power, imo, but they are bound by the Drakes to a specific task/goal. So far we haven't seen that the Biedar have any restrictions on their actions."

Ah. I see your point. They do seem, however, to hold the land sacred.

And yes, I've read Sundering Star.


message 19: by Amelia (last edited Jan 17, 2011 08:40AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amelia (narknon) | 523 comments Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "No, no, no! Amelia, the baby born on the black sands of Sanpashir, on the dark moon fallen nearest the spring equinox, is an infant, who mother dark charges to watch over the one named as Mother D..."

Was this in Stormed Fortress? I don't remember that part. I'm sure you're right about it though. I was just going off my memory and it's been longer since I've read it. Now I need to go read about that other baby and find out whose it could be. Dang you Sandra.

Can I throw in on your discussion of the who is the biggest threat to humankind?

I agree with Jeff that the F7 have been charged with the survival of Athera and the Paravians. The humans were almost a secondary consequence. They were allowed to live on Athera as long as they followed the rules of the compact. If it came to the point where humanity threatened the survival of the Paravians and then ultimately Athera, I believe that the F7 would have to protect Athera, even if it meant destroying humankind. I don't think we have any idea really what the motivators of the Biedar are. They're the wild card in the scheme of things.


Sandra  (sleo) | 1059 comments Amelia wrote: "Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "No, no, no! Amelia, the baby born on the black sands of Sanpashir, on the dark moon fallen nearest the spring equinox, is an infant, who mother dark charges to watch over t..."

LOL, it's in the last little piece of the ending trilogy of the book, so easy to find.

re: threat: Asandir states at some point that the F7 would have to destroy humanity if it came to that. That's a moot point. I'm not sure where it is -- perhaps that bit in the fisherman's boat before he rouses the forests to foil Lysaer's plan to burn the forests? Grand Conspiracy?


Sandra  (sleo) | 1059 comments And yes, it's right at the end of Stormed Fortress. She gives us that last little bomb shell and then leaves us hanging!


message 22: by Jeff (new) - rated it 5 stars

Jeff Watson | 46 comments Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "They do seem, however, to hold the land sacred."

Yes they do. But do they view humanity as part of the land of Athera?


Sandra  (sleo) | 1059 comments Jeff wrote: "Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "They do seem, however, to hold the land sacred."

Yes they do. But do they view humanity as part of the land of Athera?"


Oh, damn, Jeff. You're causing me all kinds of uneasiness here!


message 24: by Jeff (new) - rated it 5 stars

Jeff Watson | 46 comments ::laughing maniacally::


Sandra  (sleo) | 1059 comments Very funny. Humph.


message 26: by John (new) - rated it 5 stars

John | 138 comments Okay, first, to the babies: yes, the Biedar had a hand in the conception between Arithon and Glendion/Elaira. When things are about to fall apart, "The crone at Sanpashir did not falter. The time and the hour had been her kept charge. [...] she hurled her bold appeal to the Warden at Althain Tower. 'I choose to call in Anshlien'ya's debt!"

By way of explanation, we get this: "Hope's promise, now reclaimed, from another, prior conception enacted five hundred years in the past. When, as an act done in free consent, spun under the influence of the tribes' singing, a young maid who had been the last-born of s'Dieneval's prophets had crossed her bloodline with Shand's royal heritage. (break) Dari s'Ahelas has spring from that night's union, and young love, in the heat of Sanpashir's black sands. (break) Let Sethvir dare to deny the Biedar their right to influence tonight's culmination! The Fellowship Sorcerors would yield their fierce claim. Due answer was owed, for what the desert tribe had granted at the behest of the Ilitharis Guardians: a bright light for the future, and continuance for a kingdom, when Shand's crown succession had been the inheritance facing sure threat of extinction" (608-609 in the mass market paperback). The deal goes on, that the child is to remain ignorant of her paternity and be given her own freewill and raised at first by the F7 (and there's a prophesy that she will spare Arithon, though ignorant of their relationship).

Now, that said, I wasn't entirely clear about the purposes of the Biedar here. Are they claiming her for themselves? I had an initial sense that she was being claimed to be the s'Ahelas heir, but as I was typing all that above I got the impression that my initial reading was wrong and that the reason the Biedar were owed this debt was because they had acted to protect the royal line, not that the calling in of this debt was intended to enable that continuation. So I guess I'm saying that I feel like I don't have enough information yet, beyond saying that, yes, the Biedar are tied up in Arithon's child's fate.


message 27: by John (new) - rated it 5 stars

John | 138 comments As for the question of who is most dangerous to the continued survival of mankind on Athera, I think the answer is none of the above: the biggest danger is mankind itself, having lost touch with the conditions under which they were allowed to settle there. Now, as far as that goes, of those three groups mentioned, the Korianthain and their agenda are actively pushing mankind toward that willful ignorance and self-destruction while the Biedar and F7 are trying to pull them back into line (while still allowing them free will).

I don't want to put words in Jeff's mouth (but I will if I have to!), but implicit in his comments is fact that the terms of their binding by the Drakes and the compact that allowed human settlement on Athera could make the F7 the instruments of the destruction of mankind. I think this is a bit backward: it's blaming them for being, in essence, the natural consequence of mankind's actions. If I tell you "hey, this stove top is hot, don't put your hand on it" and you say "okay" but then put your hand on it anyway, was it my fault for getting the stove hot or yours for failing to follow my directions?

And no, I haven't read Sundering Star.


Sandra  (sleo) | 1059 comments John wrote: "As for the question of who is most dangerous to the continued survival of mankind on Athera, I think the answer is none of the above: the biggest danger is mankind itself, having lost touch with th..."

Way back in Fugitive Prince, when Asandir is taking the fishing boat to raise the forest in its own defense, he explains to the fisherman that the F7 will have to destroy mankind before it upsets the original binding by the Drakes.


message 29: by John (new) - rated it 5 stars

John | 138 comments Yes, that's exactly what I'm referring to. But my point is still that the destruction of mankind will be mankind's fault. If they're not playing by the rules their ancestors agreed to in order to be allowed to settle there, then it's their actions calling down their own destruction. When someone breaks the law, we don't blame the police for arresting them, we blame the person committing the crime.

That analogy might be different if, say, we're dealing with a crooked cop or an unjust system or an unjust law, but that doesn't seem to be the case here, does it?


Sandra  (sleo) | 1059 comments John wrote: "Yes, that's exactly what I'm referring to. But my point is still that the destruction of mankind will be mankind's fault. If they're not playing by the rules their ancestors agreed to in order to b..."

Well, no, it doesn't. And exactly -- it's mankind's greed calling down the destruction... just like in real life, eh?


message 31: by John (new) - rated it 5 stars

John | 138 comments Yeah. I know that Janny reject any simple analogy to our own world, but I can't help seeing it there in the way that we've consumed resources and degraded our environment in the name of progress.


Sandra  (sleo) | 1059 comments John wrote: "Yeah. I know that Janny reject any simple analogy to our own world, but I can't help seeing it there in the way that we've consumed resources and degraded our environment in the name of progress."

Oh, ITA, and think Janny would too. I think she means it's not similar to our medieval system and the traditional royalty thing, not that it doesn't resonate with themes from life.


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