Terminalcoffee discussion

71 views
Rants / Debates (Serious) > A trolling author starts a fight about appropriate holiday greetings

Comments Showing 1-50 of 128 (128 new)    post a comment »
« previous 1 3

message 1: by Andy (new)

Andy Strum (fed-upamerican) | 1 comments To All My Left of Center Friends:

Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, my best wishes for an
environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low-stress, non-addictive,
gender-neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within
the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or
secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular
persuasion and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice
religious or secular traditions at all. I also wish you a fiscally
successful, personally fulfilling and medically uncomplicated recognition of
the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2011, but not without due
respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to
society have helped make America great. Not to imply that America is
necessarily greater than any other country nor the only America in the
Western Hemisphere . Also, this wish is made without regard to the race,
creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith or sexual preference of
the wishee.

To All My Right of Center and Independent Friends:

Merry Christmas and a Happy and prosperous New Year!


message 2: by ms.petra (new)

ms.petra (mspetra) LOVE IT!!!!!!!!! "right" back at you, Andy!


message 3: by [deleted user] (new)

Ooooops I just skipped right though until I got to...

Merry Christmas and a Happy and prosperous New Year!

If you are on the Western hemisphere, does that place me on the Eastern? I never seem to be in the 'right' hemisphere dang it!


message 4: by Suefly (new)

Suefly | 620 comments Happy Holidays...?


message 5: by Phil (new)

Phil | 11694 comments People are so fucking stupid. Say whatever you want. If it's meant with good intentions it should be received that way.

As a left-of-center person, I don't give a rat's ass what you think or celebrate in your home -- just don't try to get everyone else to conform to your beliefs and don't try to get government sponsorship.

Is it truly that hard to show consideration for others? Do christians (an overwhelming majority in this country) really feel persecuted? Well get the fuck over it.


message 6: by RandomAnthony (new)

RandomAnthony | 14536 comments I hear you, Phil, going both ways, though; people getting upset about others saying "merry Christmas " need to get the fuck over it, too. Let people say what is meaningful for them and recognize good intention.


message 7: by Kate (last edited Dec 25, 2010 09:59AM) (new)

Kate (kateharper) | 206 comments Hey, Phil and RA. I don't know if "get the fuck over it" exactly fits in with my holiday wishes for everyone but I do agree that people should look at the intention and do the translation to whatever works for them.

So, in the spirit of my leanings: A lotus for you, a Buddha to be.


message 8: by Félix (new)

Félix (habitseven) Yeah! Fuck 'em if they don't have good intentions. Er ... uh ... no, that's not what I intended to say.


message 9: by RandomAnthony (new)

RandomAnthony | 14536 comments Hee. A lotus to you all, and to all, a good night :)

You're right, Kate, by the way. Well said.


message 10: by Phil (new)

Phil | 11694 comments "Get the fuck over it" may sound harsh, but it's how I feel after a full month of letters to the editor and snarky comments from people around town about those "un-American folk" who "want to take Christmas away from us."

Once again Bill O'Fathead Gasbag had his "culture warriors" out in force, demanding that everyone say "merry christmas" instead of "happy holidays," and denouncing as tools of the devil anyone who dared defy them.

Or is it just in Utah?


message 11: by RandomAnthony (last edited Dec 25, 2010 01:13PM) (new)

RandomAnthony | 14536 comments It's hard for me to compare Utah with Wisconsin, since I haven't been in utah in fifteen years, but I haven't heard too much of what you describe here and I try to let both sides of that argument roll off my back, anyway. I don't succeed all the time.


message 12: by Kevin (new)

Kevin  (ksprink) | 11469 comments Merry Christmas


message 13: by Félix (new)

Félix (habitseven) The whole thing is a manufactured controversy.

Yup. That's what pinheads like Bull Oh Really do.


message 14: by Phil (new)

Phil | 11694 comments Misha wrote: "Okay, so, despite all of Bill O'Reilly's protestations, I've never actually met anyone who gets offended when someone says, "Merry Christmas," nor have I ever met anyone who insists that others not..."

I want to live where you are. I don't know ANYONE offended by "merry christmas," but I'm surrounded by people who insist others say that and not "happy holidays." Surrounded, I tell you.


message 15: by RandomAnthony (last edited Dec 26, 2010 08:46AM) (new)

RandomAnthony | 14536 comments I don't know anyone who insists people say Merry Christmas. I can understand both sides. I can understand that people may get frustrated with the implication that saying "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Hannukah" is evidence that they're denigrating other faiths or belief systems, because there's a potential impliciation that if "Happy Holidays" is inclusive than "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Hannukah" is aggressively anti-inclusive. I can also understand how people who say "Happy Holidays" would get frustrated if using that phrase were to be considered anti-Christmas. However, I don't think either implication is very commmon. I don't know anyone who seriously cares a lot about this one way or the other. I must live in a pretty good place, because I hear people saying "Merry Christmas" and "Happy Holidays" with smiles to strangers rather than ill will or self-righteous assumptions.


message 16: by Phil (last edited Dec 26, 2010 10:02AM) (new)

Phil | 11694 comments Welcome to the theocracy that is Utah.


message 17: by Rebecca (new)

Rebecca White (rebecca_white) | 1028 comments Phil wrote: "People are so fucking stupid. Say whatever you want. If it's meant with good intentions it should be received that way.

As a left-of-center person, I don't give a rat's ass what you think or cele..."


With you 100% on this, Phil. What is called "political correctness" is what used to be called "good manners." Good intentions by definition has to include the understanding that not everybody celebrates Christmas.

But for everybody, there are multiple holidays this holiday season, so getting offended at "Happy Holidays" is just silly. But maybe nobody does. Maybe this is, as RA says, just an invented controversy.

Message 1 is a stereotype of the left. I'm assuming this is a joke, but that nonsense is spouted as the truth too often and too many people believe it. Ultimately stereotypes are always damaging.


message 18: by RandomAnthony (new)

RandomAnthony | 14536 comments Yes, I see what misha is saying about message one. It does sound like one of those forwarded emails.


message 19: by ms.petra (new)

ms.petra (mspetra) I am to the right of center and I am not offended by "Happy Holidays." I work in a mixed neighborhood that includes, Jews, Christians, and Muslims and that greeting covers it all. What I am offended by is the fact that in a predominately Christian nation, many people want to disregard what Christmas is and means and turn it into just another secular event. These same people have no trouble taking the day off work with pay. Somewhat hypocritical IMO. I am not a bible thumper, but I am not afraid of the religious aspects of specific holidays either. My Libertarian streak says live and let live. Pat Conroy's latest book has an interesting reflection on political correctness and its effect on free speech. He is speaking as a liberal and a writer. Very interesting perspective. Check it out.


message 20: by ms.petra (new)

ms.petra (mspetra) Christmas is a religious holiday.


message 21: by ms.petra (new)

ms.petra (mspetra) if we really celebrate a secular holiday then let's make it the winter soltice.


message 22: by ms.petra (new)

ms.petra (mspetra) Misha wrote: "How does taking a day off without pay for what they consider a secular holiday make someone a hypocrite? Thanksgiving is secular, as are Memorial Day, July 4 and Labor Day - all days for which many..."

no Misha. I am speaking in general as usual and I should know better on TC. I guess my point is, I hear these arguments about separation of church and state. That a nativity scene can not be displayed in a public setting. That the word "GOD" can not be used. These same people have no problem with the state giving a paid holiday for Christmas which is a religious holiday, whether you celebrate it or not is not the point. Hannukah is not a paid holiday, Easter is not a paid holiday, Ramadan is not a paid holiday. These are all religious holidays.


message 23: by Rebecca (new)

Rebecca White (rebecca_white) | 1028 comments "I am offended by is the fact that in a predominately Christian nation, many people want to disregard what Christmas is and means and turn it into just another secular event."

and then a few sentences later...

"My Libertarian streak says live and let live."


message 24: by ms.petra (new)

ms.petra (mspetra) I am saying celebrate your holiday and let me celebrate mine.


message 25: by ms.petra (new)

ms.petra (mspetra) wow, I guess I am done here.


message 26: by Rebecca (new)

Rebecca White (rebecca_white) | 1028 comments Christmas is, whether or not you or I or anyone likes it, a religious holiday for some, a social and secular holiday for others, not a holiday at all for others, and for nearly all Christians, it's both. Christmas is a secular holiday when families and friends gather and do whatever they want. That justifies it. The State of Kentucky used to give its employees half a day off for Good Friday, but I'm pretty sure that's stopped, and I agree that it should have, because it IS purely a religious day.

BUT = those who get chintzy about pay and benefits for government employees need to remember that you get what you pay for. It always amuses me that those who are so critical of government agencies are the same ones who don't want to fund them properly.


message 27: by Kate (new)

Kate (kateharper) | 206 comments ms.petra wrote: "wow, I guess I am done here."

Hey, ms. petra, most of us understood what you were saying. Don't go anywhere!


message 28: by Rebecca (new)

Rebecca White (rebecca_white) | 1028 comments ms.petra wrote: "I am saying celebrate your holiday and let me celebrate mine."

But you talk about people wanting to "turn it into a secular event," implying that they are trying to change how Christians celebrate it, or try to forbid people from expressing their own religion. That is what is troubling, because it just isn't true. Keeping the majority religion from dominating public life (which includes us all) is protecting religion, and if ever the majority religion is different, and that group seeks to dominate, these will be the same people trying to protect you.


message 29: by Phil (new)

Phil | 11694 comments I love the close of that Colbert bit. I also love what Rebecca has written. I don't love that words like hers typically fall on deaf culture warrior ears.


message 30: by Ken (new)

Ken (playjerist) | 721 comments I expect to go at it with Andy during the Festivus Feats of Strength.


message 31: by Brittomart (new)

Brittomart Hi, Ken.


message 32: by Ken (new)

Ken (playjerist) | 721 comments Hiya Britt.


message 33: by Michele (new)

Michele bookloverforever (lovebooks14) | 1970 comments Brief church history here: the roman catholic church picked dec.25th as the birthdate of christ for several political reasons: 1) the old roman holiday of Saturnalia. 2)many goddess religions celebrated the solstice and 3)dec.25th happened to be the birthdate of Mithras (I think I got the spelling right) a competing religion at the beginning of the christian movement. the church fathers were not stupid and figured they might as well go with the flow and christianize pagan rituals.


message 34: by ms.petra (new)

ms.petra (mspetra) Ken wrote: "I expect to go at it with Andy during the Festivus Feats of Strength."

:)


message 35: by Spellbound (new)

Spellbound (spellboundreads) | 117 comments Michele is perfectly right.
Do people in the States really argue about "Merry Christmas" and "Holiday Greetings"? Wow, and I thought Italians liked to fuss about fried air! ;-)

Easter is always on Sunday, that's why nobody gets the day off. Unless you work Sundays I suppose, but in Italy we normally don't.


message 36: by Kevin (new)

Kevin  (ksprink) | 11469 comments i agree with petra. we don't take kwanzaa and make them say "happy holidays" nor do we try to influence the naming or celebrating of other religious holidays. christmas is a christian religious holiday that can be celebrated by everyone. interesting how many people who want to change the name and the intent of the holiday will still take the day off work and accept all bennies of it. the ones that i really respect are the ones who do not celebrate christmas as all because of other religious beliefs. in my book you can't be adamant about "happy holidays" and still take the CHRISTMAS BONUS (and or ham, turkey, days off, etc...)


message 37: by Jonathan (last edited Dec 27, 2010 10:22AM) (new)

Jonathan Lopez | 4728 comments If I know someone celebrates Christmas, I'll wish that person a Merry Christmas, just as I would wish Jewish friends a Happy Hanukkah.

But if I don't know people well enough to be aware of which holidays, if any, they celebrate, then I don't think there's any real context of friendship which would make it appropriate for me to offer "wishes" of any kind. This is why I don't really care for the phrase "Happy Holidays" (although I'm sure I've used it at some point or another). To me it seems like empty verbiage, similar to "Have a nice day," which people use just to fill up an awkward pause at the end of a conversation.

But for someone like Petra, whose line of work requires that she interact in a cordial, outgoing way with a wide variety of people whom she may not really know, I can see that "Happy Holidays" might be a useful phrase, just as it could be in other business situations that require an enforced, and often superficial, friendliness. But in ordinary personal life, I really can't see much use for it.

At the end of December, "Happy new year" generally seems to work pretty well.


message 38: by Sally, la reina (new)

Sally (mrsnolte) | 17346 comments Mod
Hey, Kwanza!


message 39: by Félix (new)

Félix (habitseven) A Kwanza hut? (No disrespect intended.)




message 40: by Lori (new)

Lori I actually knew one person who did get offended at everyone saying Merry Christmas to her, she is pretty Jewish. Shame really, because by saying that no one is forcing Christianity down her throat, it's said with wonderful intent of wishing someone well. The irony is that even tho her Christian stepfather is dead, her mom still gets a Xmas tree which the person loves! A bit muddy I say.

I say Merry Christmas to people who I know celebrate Christmas with all the intent that it is meant to say - meaning joy and peace to you!

But I've been fascinated for several years about the "war on Christmas." Stores no longer sell Xas trees, but "holiday" trees, ridiculous.


message 41: by Lori (new)

Lori Oh and I took the 1st message as a joke, a comment about how politically correct everyone has to be over Xmas.


Rick-Founder JM CM BOOK CLUB  | 1 comments Happy Holidays to all of you wonderful people and a special hello you your pets..I,m sorry..Animal Companions
Rick and Velvet (My Schnauzer)


message 43: by Félix (new)

Félix (habitseven) "Politically correct" has been turned into a pajorative, as something some really stupid, overly-sensitive person would do. I'm sick of the expression. It's used in strawman arguments and in ridiculous examples such as Andy's -- to make the point that liberals/progressives are bleeding heart idiots who over complicate things with sentimentality and over-compensation for the feelings of others.

Happy New Year.


message 44: by Jonathan (last edited Dec 27, 2010 10:38AM) (new)

Jonathan Lopez | 4728 comments Let me amend what I wrote earlier: there is one situation in which I tend to use "Happy Holidays." My cousin Richard's wife is Jewish, and every year I send them a non-denominational card with snowflakes or something like that on it. Inside, I'll write "Happy Holidays" or "Best Wishes for the New Year," along with a few lines of personal or family news. They live far away, and I hardly ever see them, so I don't really know which holiday they celebrate--or maybe they celebrate both. But the exchange of cards is one of the few ways that we keep in touch, and I'm glad that we do it.


message 45: by Félix (new)

Félix (habitseven) No salt for me, Misha.


message 46: by Lori (new)

Lori Misha, that's true about the tree being a pagan tradition, indeed that's why the Christians perpetuated it. I dunno, I just don't get riled up about the wording, perhaps from being in a minority all my life. I never felt like anyone was forcing me to do one thing or another about Christmas. I've always liked Christmas. FOr both the religious who truly believe in Christ, it's their time of celebration (as long as they don't force anything on me) and for the high spirits of everyone.


message 47: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Lopez | 4728 comments Misha wrote: "maybe "holiday tree" is actually more appropriate..."

Only if you're living in some Orwellian distopia.

Seriously, Misha, how many people do you personally know, in current-day America, who buy a Norway Spruce in mid-December so that they can celebrate a Druidic ritual in the family parlor? The pre-Christian origins of the Christmas tree are interesting, but not really relevant to modern nomenclature.


message 48: by Lori (new)

Lori I used to! Using that rationale just because I wanted to have a tree. The first time it was so trashy - I threw on everything imaginable - hundreds of lights, tinsel, garlands, what fun! Then I got very stoned and watched all the lights chase each other.


message 49: by Félix (new)

Félix (habitseven) I like how in Japan they use Mickey Mouse alongside Santa Claus for their "Christmas" decorations.

So-called culture wars are a bore -- stirring up outrage over something that doesn't amount to anything in the grand scheme.

As my old friend Rodney King so aptly said, "Why can't we just get along?"


message 50: by Jonathan (last edited Dec 27, 2010 11:00AM) (new)

Jonathan Lopez | 4728 comments Misha wrote: "I'm scratching my head over the people who are so caught up in the nomenclature that it somehow spoils their holiday to purchase a "holiday tree" instead of a "Christmas tree."

Many members of the Democratic party rightly take offense when Republicans call it the "Democrat party." Conspicuously mangling the names of things you don't care about, but that other people do care about, is an a kind of Archie Bunker-ism:

Archie: What's the difference, Edith?

Edith: Well, Archie, some people say...

Archie: I don't mean "what's the difference," please explain it to me. I mean "what's the difference," who cares!


« previous 1 3
back to top