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SERIES—List & Discussions > Wars of Light & Shadow--Grand Conspiracy - Ch VII, VIII, IX - SPOILERS!

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message 1: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments The plot thickens ... how do you feel about the s'Brydion and their loyalties? Dame Dawr?

Fionn Areth, now that he's older?

Why should the Fellowship Sorcerers show such concern over Raiett Raven, and other developments set into motion by Lysaer's court?

These are the chapters leading up to this book's tipping point. There is magic and mystery, unlocking the Fortress at Earle, and machinations by factions aplenty.

How many 'conspiracies' do you think might be afoot in this volume of the series? Which is the 'biggest' and which (you could be wrong!) do you postulate will have the most impact?


message 2: by Kerry (new)

Kerry (rocalisa) | 487 comments Just a quick comment to say I love Dame Dawr!


message 3: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1141 comments Kerry wrote: "Just a quick comment to say I love Dame Dawr!"

Me too Kerry!


message 4: by Michelle (new)

 Michelle (varmint3) | 34 comments The s'Brydion have made it pretty clear all along where their loyalty lies, and I haven't seen anything yet that suggests any change in their loyalties (if anything, it's easier to see now that they are with Arithon) - but they seem to be stepping up a more dangerous game now than in the earlier books where they were simply observing Lysaer's court. LOVE Dame Dawr! I want to be an old lady like her LOL!

Fionn Areth is still kind of a mystery to me, character-wise - most of what I've seen of him has been the Koriani scryings. Lirenda's reactions to seeing him are priceless, though. If he has that effect on her just through a scrying, the resemblance to Arithon must be striking.

Raitt Raven and the priests are frightening developments, in a way - Lysaer is moving further in a direction that he won't be able to back down from easily if he is ever released from the compulsion of the curse - if he did he would be breaking his own laws. Also, the persecution of magic users is bad precedent, and I can see it in the future making things rough for both the Koriani and the fellowship, if it is pressed further...


message 5: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1141 comments Michelle wrote: "The s'Brydion have made it pretty clear all along where their loyalty lies, and I haven't seen anything yet that suggests any change in their loyalties (if anything, it's easier to see now that the..."

And Lysaer's persecution of magic users is pretty hypocritical as he and his priests are using it as well.


message 6: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments Kerry wrote: "Just a quick comment to say I love Dame Dawr!"

You will see more of her, promise.


message 7: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments Michelle wrote: "The s'Brydion have made it pretty clear all along where their loyalty lies, and I haven't seen anything yet that suggests any change in their loyalties (if anything, it's easier to see now that the..."

Then, where does their loyalty lie? What does Parrien suggest on this?


message 8: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments Sandra aka Sleo wrote: " Michelle wrote: "The s'Brydion have made it pretty clear all along where their loyalty lies, and I haven't seen anything yet that suggests any change in their loyalties (if anything, it's easier t..."

Lysaer has a very clear cut policy on this issue, and when you suss it out, it says a great deal about his underlying character. Don't be fooled...;)


message 9: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1141 comments Janny wrote: "Sandra aka Sleo wrote: " Michelle wrote: "The s'Brydion have made it pretty clear all along where their loyalty lies, and I haven't seen anything yet that suggests any change in their loyalties (if..."

Oh, crap! More research, :D.


message 10: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "Janny wrote: "Sandra aka Sleo wrote: " Michelle wrote: "The s'Brydion have made it pretty clear all along where their loyalty lies, and I haven't seen anything yet that suggests any change in their..."

This is the 'in depth' read -- grin.
And you are not remiss. This is part and parcel of this series; you read the first time to see who survives/what happens...THEN you wonder where the motivations come from. When you are looking left, things are happening on the right, or right under your nose. But because your expectations were geared in another direction, the plain as day statements get missed; or dismissed as window dressing.

Why the story shifts and changes and opens and becomes YET ANOTHER story on a re-take.

Lysaer is definitely cursed. He is definitely trapped on a very deep level. A lot of who he is creates this; and a lot of who he truly is gets utterly missed on the quick take.

Which is just fine. But - watch your back - grin.

Much of what you are forming your opinion on is the opinion of other characters; just as with Arithon. What you see, surface, and what may be going on underneath - watch out for the 'window dressing' that isn't.


message 11: by Sandra (last edited Dec 18, 2010 08:58AM) (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1141 comments Well I hate to say the things I do know about Lysaer in case they're spoilers, but one thing is that he is using magic because he realized he needs it to defeat what he sees as Arithon's fell sorcery, even though Arithon's lost his magic, which he, of course, doesn't know.

I also see Lysaer's relationship to magic being influenced by his childhood history of being denied access by Arithon's grandfather and his own father; his abandonment by his mother which also colors his relationship to women. Both of these things have created envy in him for his half brother. And envy breeds many side issues - the desire to destroy the coveted other, hunger for those things perceived to be unavailable being two main ones off the top of my head.

All of what he truly is gets suborned to his perceived need to stay the course of his mission to destroy his half brother - any basic goodness included.


message 12: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "Well I hate to say the things I do know about Lysaer in case they're spoilers, but one thing is that he is using magic because he realized he needs it to defeat what he sees as Arithon's fell sorce..."

Look to the text...watch what Lysaer actually DOES.

The scene with Ellaine - who drank the brandy, after all?

Few who try to second guess Lysaer actually see him. What did you make of Raiett's assessment at the ending of ch VII?

Raiett stopped again, posed in stunned reassessment. "No one knows you," he demurred.

Lysaer: "That's no viable truth. Everyone knows me. I am the land's hope of the light to trumph and banish the darkness."

"So men say," Raiett said, calmly neutral. "I might ask for the truth."

"You'll settle for the gift of my confidence," - Lysaer.

Might read into this scene, take it carefully to its conclusion, and look at what is truly behind what is being said.

Watch what Lysaer does in the little scenes, how he reacts when not under major pressure by the curse.

Of course, there will be more opportunity to fathom his inner self as the series progresses.


message 13: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1141 comments Well Lysaer took the brandy of course, as he had to drink to get through the sex with Ellaine, and he says outright that he does not dare care for her as anyone he cares for is used against him. And how he squares this with his vaunted sense of justice is beyond me.

I think Lysaer's humanity is available in the little glimpses you talk about. Certainly his private grief when he finds out about Talith's death is revealing.

Clearly Lysaer is willing to reveal only his confidence about state issues to Raiett in the above scene. There is nothing revealed about his person. Raiett knows there is more, but ultimately is afraid to see more. Raiett is limited by his own issues here.


message 14: by Kerry (new)

Kerry (rocalisa) | 487 comments I have to admit that at this point, I simply don't understand Lysaer at all. I thought I did, but that's being underminded as I learn more, so at this point in the story and as a first time reader, I just have to say that I don't understand him at all and keep my eyes open for clues that might help me out.

From the outside, it still looks to me like he's almost got a split personality. Nothing as simple as how we'd define it out here in the real world, but he will act in totally opposing ways (which keep me writing "hypocrite" in my notes) and seem not to see any conflict. It is this, most of all that leaves me saying that right now I just don't understand him.


message 15: by Charles (new)

Charles (charliewhip) | 141 comments Kerry wrote: "I have to admit that at this point, I simply don't understand Lysaer at all. I thought I did, but that's being underminded as I learn more, so at this point in the story and as a first time reader,..."

Kerry, after reading the entire series 3 times (as published so far) I am no more sure of Lysaer than you are. He is one of the most inscrutable characters in fantasy. Yes, I thought I did,too.


message 16: by Kerry (new)

Kerry (rocalisa) | 487 comments Kerry, after reading the entire series 3 times (as published so far) I am no more sure of Lysaer than you are. He is one of the most inscrutable characters in fantasy. Yes, I thought I did,too.

Charles, I'm not sure if that encourages me or depresses me. :) But at least I know I'm not the only one. Maybe more will be revealed in the books that aren't published/written yet?


message 17: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments Kerry wrote: "Kerry, after reading the entire series 3 times (as published so far) I am no more sure of Lysaer than you are. He is one of the most inscrutable characters in fantasy. Yes, I thought I did,too.

..."


Much more will be revealed in later books (already published) and in ones coming.

Split personality - what does this suggest?


message 18: by Kerry (new)

Kerry (rocalisa) | 487 comments Janny wrote: "Much more will be revealed in later books (already published) and in ones coming.

Split personality - what does this suggest?"


That's good to hear.

I'm not sure what the split personality thing suggests at this point (part of it is Lysaer cursed and part of it is Lysaer as he would be not cursed?), but it seems noticable to me at present.

But I'm waiting for him to crack. And it isn't going to be pretty.


message 19: by Michelle (last edited Dec 20, 2010 04:47AM) (new)

 Michelle (varmint3) | 34 comments Janny wrote: " Then, where does their loyalty lie? What does Parrien suggest on this?"

Parrien's ruse with the "hanging" maintains the (very thin at this point) appearance of s'Brydion loyalty to Lysaer, but we do learn the truth of the hanging when he returns to Alestron with the men he had "hanged" - I love that he turned the "crime" for which they were hanged from conspiracy with Arithon to disgruntled, unpaid employees sabotaging the work (and in the process winning the town officials to stop funding the war preparations)!

In any case, their true loyalty is to the clans/old lineage, and because of Lysaer's avowed destruction of the clans, they have aligned with Arithon (I can't find the passage where they meet with Arithon to resolve their differences...). But they had sworn to Lysaer first (following Arithon and Dakar's raid on their armory) and thus need to maintain the appearance of allegiance with Lysaer, too - they're walking a thin line...


message 20: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1141 comments I'm not sure what you're meaning 'split personality' to mean, but my read is that Lysaer doesn't remember some of what happens when the curse overtakes him. Or if he does remember, it's so painful to him that he either tries to forget it or rationalizes it with his 'mission' of eradicating evil. Something impossible to do, BTW.


message 21: by Kerry (new)

Kerry (rocalisa) | 487 comments Sandra, I'm not sure what I mean either, so I used the closest description I could come up with.

It's like he can act in two mutually exclusive ways and not seem to recognise that that is what they are. I'm thinking of things like how he'll insist that people must face "royal justice" (such as with the s'Brydion's supposed "hanging") but he can also indiscriminately kill people without a trial, such as the crew of the ship that took Lirenda to Corith.

These are not consistent. Yet he doesn't seem to appreciate this.

Or maybe he does? We haven't really seen inside his head for a while and I get the feeling an awful lot of what he's been doing is actually meticulously planned. For example, everything that appeared peaceful in that quiet 12 years in this section, I think is really Lysaer getting everyone into the position he wants them (both geographically and in terms of frame of mind) so that Athera is tinder waiting for him to light the spark at the moment of his choosing.

So maybe he does know how inconsistently he's acting? Or maybe he doesn't? I can't tell.


message 22: by Mawgojzeta (last edited Dec 31, 2010 12:13PM) (new)

Mawgojzeta | 178 comments This is quite likely way off base, but I have started having this nagging feeling that on some level he is protecting himself from the worst of the curse through actions (that we find deplorable) which seem to align with the curse itself. He clearly (see Kerry's message above) has meticulously planned over time. He is a rather smart man. Is he as big of a hypocrite as he appears to be? Starting to wonder, myself.

I am not saying that he was always doing this. In the beginning, I do not think so. But now...


message 23: by Jon (new)

Jon (jonmoss) | 626 comments Janny wrote: "Much more will be revealed in later books (already published) and in ones coming."

And on that note ... when is Initiate's Trial going to print? :)

I'm a bit disheartened by this thread. Lysaer still remains a mystery to many of these readers (and re-readers) and no answers are forthcoming (for years).

Sigh. My impatience needs reigning in I fear.


message 24: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1141 comments Enlightenment re Lysaer is slow, but more comes by the end of Stormed Fortress.

Mawgojzeta wrote: "This is quite likely way off base, but I have started having this nagging feeling that on some level he is protecting himself from the worst of the curse through actions (that we find deplorable) w..."

It's true Lysaer knows more than he lets on, and he does seem like a huge hypocrite, but I think he justifies his political 'persona' by seeing it as necessary (remember his upbringing to be a ruler and his father's admonitions) both to comfort his subjects and to achieve his overriding objective that is curse-driven - to annihilate his half brother.

And I think, like Arithon, he is very smart indeed - genius, in fact.


message 25: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments Jon wrote: "Janny wrote: "Much more will be revealed in later books (already published) and in ones coming."

And on that note ... when is Initiate's Trial going to print? :)

I'm a bit dishear..."


Actually, some of what you are yearning for will occur in later volumes that are already in print; one thing at a time. Let your assumptions play for a bit, yet...

Initiate's Trial as of TODAY has two more chapter sets left to polish before turn in. I expect to have a firm pub date for it pretty fast. Although it is an arc start, it is into the series convergency - so the plot GALLOPS. I had to be extra careful to make sure all the minor details matched, forward AND backward, and to try to see the pages are as tight as possible. No Sprawl Here. The fat has been trimmed until the story speaks.


message 26: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "Enlightenment re Lysaer is slow, but more comes by the end of Stormed Fortress.

Mawgojzeta wrote: "This is quite likely way off base, but I have started having this nagging feeling that on some le..."


Genius in fact; re-readers here are being very quiet and careful about ALOT of things, so as not to spoil the upcoming story. Things that could shift your take on these chapters radically; it's one of the drawbacks of a discussion, that IF a person has read ahead, it makes for Lots of Duct Tape Moments.

No apologies from the author; the shifts are meant to move all the markers, that is part of the experience.

So, let that frustration boil a bit - when it blows, look out.


message 27: by Jon (new)

Jon (jonmoss) | 626 comments Janny wrote: "The fat has been trimmed until the story speaks. "

Or is that 'squeaks'? :)

I'll place my trust and faith in your storytelling, as always. I'm thoroughly enjoying Dame Dawr in Chapter IX right now. The Rotts keep looking at me funny when I chortle and snort.


message 28: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments Jon wrote: "Janny wrote: "The fat has been trimmed until the story speaks. "

Or is that 'squeaks'? :)

I'll place my trust and faith in your storytelling, as always. I'm thoroughly enjoying Dame Dawr in Chap..."


Nope; meant as written. You'll see. ;)

Delightful to hear you laughing at those bits! Made me chuckle plenty, writing them.


message 29: by Jon (new)

Jon (jonmoss) | 626 comments Janny wrote: "Why should the Fellowship Sorcerers show such concern over Raiett Raven, and other developments set into motion by Lysaer's court? "

I believe it relates to the fortifications at Etarra, which will disrupt the lane forces and cause disharmony to Athera.


message 30: by Jon (new)

Jon (jonmoss) | 626 comments Janny wrote: "How many 'conspiracies' do you think might be afoot in this volume of the series? Which is the 'biggest' and which (you could be wrong!) do you postulate will have the most impact? "

I'm starting to see conspiracies on every page and in every nook and cranny. Morriel did surprise me a bit by deliberately disrupting Lirenda's plodding plot.

I posted a quick list in response to another similar topic here: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/4...


message 31: by Shel, Moderator (new)

Shel (shel99) | 2354 comments Mod
Just finished this set. Dame Dawr definitely had me laughing with glee whenever she appeared - I loved the way she handled the sunwheel acolyte that tried to make his way to Alestron on her galley :) I'm also very glad that she managed to inform Ellaine of the true fate of her predecessor, though I'm a little worried that Gace Steward may have noticed her untasted brandy.

I feel better now that I know the s'Brydion brothers' hanging of the prisoners was a complete farce. I wasn't reading their characters wrong after all! I am 100% certain that Lysaer knows of their defection in loyalty, no matter how much he pretends he is powerless to act against them because he has no proof. I'm just as certain that, given his s'Ahelas gift of foresight and long-term planning, he's got something up his sleeve to deal with them in the future...makes me very nervous!

Really curious as to what Morriel has up her sleeve...


message 32: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments Ah - :x


message 33: by Shel, Moderator (new)

Shel (shel99) | 2354 comments Mod
well gee, always good to get that extra insight from the author!

;p


message 34: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments What Morriel has up her sleeve - will curl your toes, definitely. ;P


message 35: by Kathi, Moderator & Book Lover (new)

Kathi | 3315 comments Mod
I'm glad we got a glimpse of Lysaer's son. Ellaine has set in motion her own conspiracy.

Morriel's "tampering" with Fionn worries me as well.

And the planned disruptions to the lane forces by Lysaer's "priests" and by the Koriani are frightening, too.

I enjoyed the scene between Elaira and Feylind--2 strong but very different women who each loves Arithon in her own way.


message 36: by Alissa (last edited Feb 20, 2015 01:24AM) (new)

Alissa | 171 comments It's getting more and more tangled and more and more interesting. It seems to me the characters focus of the story in this book has shifted, we see more of the s'Brydion, which is both fun (Dame Dawr is a genuine delight! Women's power! I'm looking forward to see what her little hints have set in motion with Ellaine. Not to mention, Vhandon's and Talvish's role) and grave, they've shown a great deal of subtlety. And Lysaer is a masterpiece, now that he has changed tactics, he is true to his word to Lirenda in Fugitive Prince (bone chilling scene, that) and plans long-term. I'm very interested in the implications of his meddling with drakes' magic (immortal spirits!) and magecraft, and surely enough I hope I'll know more of Cerebeld's plans. And Raiett Raven's influence (and I agree, nobody can guess Lysaer's agenda). One thing is certain, s'Ahelas geas or not, Lysaer knows how to pick his staff! I think anyway he is genuinely convinced unifying all the five kingdoms under his banner will bring prosperity for humanity. There are so many conspiracies afoot that I'm simply reading with concentration, trying to absorb all the details and making no attempt to predict how all the strands of the tapestry are going to converge. The Alliance growing network, the trade guilds, the threat of the wraiths, the responsibilities on the Fellowship's shoulders, mankind free will, Havish.... I cannot make assumptions, but when some answers come, the related pieces of the puzzle always click into place, I just love it.
Latest I've read, Morriel scheming behind Lirenda's back. I knew the old crone had a bag still full of tricks!

I was wondering about Arithon's gift tied to sound, is sound considered an element? I see the Koriani and the Fellowship can tap the four elements. But the Paravians were able to sing conjury. I'm thinking about Arithon's handiwork in Jaelot and the craft he displayed with Lirenda's quartz etc.

And the prose! Sometimes when I read, I just pause to reflect on the rich and lush depictions and speech patterns, the evocative power behind and the words, and really, I'm continuously amazed at the poetic and pregnant quality of the style. I couldn't imagine the same story narrated any other way.


message 37: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1141 comments I'm not very good at predicting so I just read and enjoy.


message 38: by Alissa (new)

Alissa | 171 comments Oh yes but I can't help thinking! Now I'm like, what about Davien, when is he going to make a move, will he cross paths with Fionn Areth? And the like :) Just too much fun.


message 39: by Sandra (last edited Feb 20, 2015 07:05AM) (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1141 comments Well, yes, that kind of thing. But trying to figure out the ultimate outcome is beyond me.. But I do enjoy reading your speculation!


message 40: by Alissa (new)

Alissa | 171 comments Ahaha, thank you. No, I'm just happy if, sometimes, I can pay notice the little clues that come into play later. I better change thread since I'm on ch XII :)


message 41: by Cody (new)

Cody | 8 comments Shel wrote: "Just finished this set. Dame Dawr definitely had me laughing with glee whenever she appeared - I loved the way she handled the sunwheel acolyte that tried to make his way to Alestron on her galley ..."

Lysaer absolutely knows about the s'Brydion loyalty and lack thereof. From my reading, it seemed pretty obvious that he was disappointed in the s'Brydion explanation because it left him no room to blame them so he could strike the war match and march on Alestron to start his great war.


message 42: by Alissa (new)

Alissa | 171 comments Oh, he so wanted to do that!


message 43: by Aussie500 (new)

Aussie500 | 35 comments Well Lysaer is still a fair way from his great war here, as we found out in his conversation with Lirenda in Fugitive Prince, Lysaer wants all 5 kingdoms to fall first. At this point he did have his eye on Melhalla, but never got his chance to add it to his list of conquests. Although it was mentioned in Chapter 5, that a black haired stranger had been killed in a remote part of Melhalla, for merely refusing to give his name, they were already willing to kill Arithon in places he and Lysaer had never been, the false religion was spreading its hatred and fear. Only Havish at this point remains untouched.


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