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Lymond Chronicles > ** SPOILERS** Pawn in Frankincense: Fourth in the Legendary Lymond Chronicles

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message 1: by Grace (new)

Grace (greengrace) | 71 comments Yes she would, she is as brave as they come. Remember her taking off to tell Joleta's secret that she got from Trotty.
SPOILER
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That is why she is a match for L she has a strong personal moral code just like our hero.


message 2: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 314 comments Mod
Remember the distances in this time. It wasn't easy to communicate. And as Gracie said, Philippa definitely has a mind of her own.

I love this book. Love, love, love it in all it's horror and tragedy. My heart ached for both Philippa and Lymond.

And I hate Graham Mallett with a passion!


message 3: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 314 comments Mod
MaryZorro wrote: "I have finished through Chapter 5.

1 Baden - This is a fun to read chapter describing the bathes and bathers in Baden. Never trust anyone no matter how they are dressed or undressed.

2 Lyons - ..."


Re: #3 - I believe no one mentions it because of the implications of illegitimacy.


message 4: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 314 comments Mod
SPOILER















No. The implication is that one of Francis' parents had a bastard. Hence Francis' later anger at Sybilla. Francis is afraid that Marthe is his sister. When is Francis ever afraid of insulting anyone?


message 5: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 314 comments Mod
Lol. This my take on the whole issue - Francis wanted to see Oonagh when he was at Malta. I think he cared for her. He did not know about the baby until Graham told him in DK. When he started looking for them - mother and baby we don't know what he's thinking but I think he would have married Oonagh to legitimize his son. Francis had strong feelings about bastardy. We know this from comments he made.

He was angry about having a woman along on his trip to Istanbul. He was mystified by Marthe's strong resemblance. He frequently avoids confronting his problems. I think his anger was that he had been lied to. He was after all trying to find his son to take responsibility for him.

He also had idealized and adored Sybilla. To think she had a child outside marriGe was very upsetting to him. It also brought his own parenthood into question.

I don't think Lymond gave a fig for the mores of the time. He had his own code.


message 6: by Sandra (last edited Dec 08, 2010 02:02PM) (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 314 comments Mod
Well he didn't know but it had to be one. And Richard who was his fathers had dark hair and eyes.


message 7: by Grace (new)

Grace (greengrace) | 71 comments Yes that's not directly connected but Marthe has Lymond's coloring which is also Sybilla's which is NOT Gavin's and Richard's. Plus if you go back on your 3rd read (you know you will) you'll see hints about Lymond's own bastardy in earlier books.


message 8: by Mickey (new)

Mickey | 61 comments Hi Mary,

Don't know it this will set you straight. But read the whole scene again.

'Hell,' said Francis Crawford so softly that only Philippa heard him, and damnation. And God damn you, Lady.' Then his face wiped clean of all real expression, he moved forward smoothly and socially to meet Maitre Gaultier' assistant.

At this instant, his whole world ended, something was really rotten in Denmark (Culter) and he was not about to let anyone see the effect. Francis rarely shows his emotions to the people around him, it is only in CM, when he lets his guard down with Philippa.

It takes years to peel away at the persona that is Francis Crawford.

Hope this helps,

Mickey


message 9: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 314 comments Mod
Does anyone know why Francis is so angry in the beginning of the book? Why he bristles at every mention of Gabriel and the baby? Is it his usual difficulty with strong feeling and his inability to show it? I guess that must be it.

I'm just rereading and am at the scene with the Dame de Doubtance. Bastardy comes up. And it's about more than 'daddy's little by-blow', I believe.


message 10: by Grace (new)

Grace (greengrace) | 71 comments My take is he's angry because was he's torn between his child and the great threat of Gabriel. He made the decision in the church and P changed that and now he gets to chase the bait and watch the havoc that G makes. He is not in control. He has conflicting responsibilities. And his child is in danger!! He's po'd before Marthe even enter's the picture. FWIW Grace


message 11: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 314 comments Mod
Gracie wrote: "My take is he's angry because was he's torn between his child and the great threat of Gabriel. He made the decision in the church and P changed that and now he gets to chase the bait and watch the ..."

OH! Okay! That makes a lot of sense. Thanks, Gracie.

I read last night through the sea battle with the two pirate ships. How magnificent! Our brrrilliant Scottish lad!


message 12: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 314 comments Mod
They're in Algiers and have found the flayed body of Oonagh. I had to look it up in Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algiers

Google Earth has some fascinating pictures. I have to think the city hasn't changed much since Francis was there.

I was thinking of why we hated Gabriel so much in Disorderly Knights. I know, for me, it was because he was such a hypocrite. I couldn't stand his simpering platitudes, and if he said 'My child' one more time, I thought I would vomit.


message 13: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 314 comments Mod
Aha! I have found the allegations of homosexuality! Leone Strozzi is questioning Jerott about the enmity between Mr. Crawford and Graham Mallett and mentions the notorious way d'Enghien pursued Mr. Crawford, implying that perhaps there was a sexual connection between the two, and then speaks of 'Such a severe masculine aura about the Dauphine. Even the women, one discovers, are to be put off, he says.

And then, hilariously, Jerott Blyth looked at the table, took a very deep breath and, in a voice only a little thickened by malmsey and the desire to kick M. Leone Strozzi into the sea...

I paid close attention in Queen's Pawn and could not find a single place where it showed that Lymond and d'Enghien actually had an assignation. Certainly d'Enghien lusted after Mr. Crawford but I don't think it was returned. And certainly Francis had NO sexual interest in Graham Mallett.

Graham Mallett, on the other hand, being totally without moral or ethic, would be quite capable of enjoying sex on either side of the blanket, so to speak.


message 14: by Sarita (new)

Sarita | 4 comments Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "Aha! I have found the allegations of homosexuality! Leone Strozzi is questioning Jerott about the enmity between Mr. Crawford and Graham Mallett and mentions the notorious way d'Enghien pursued M..."

I'm not sure exactly where the incident is in QP, it's when O'Liam Roe can't always have access to his rooms because his ollave has become so popular. O'Liam Roe tries to enter the rooms and can't get through the closed door. He is told, in Spanish, that the room is "occupada". The phrase was specific to a prostitute being with a client and the gender (of the prostitute) is feminine. Which I always took to mean Lymond was doing something perceived as girly -- submitting to a guy. Also the status of the two people in the similie is uneven - client/prostitute = courtier/ollave = male/female.


message 15: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 314 comments Mod
Sarita wrote: "Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "Aha! I have found the allegations of homosexuality! Leone Strozzi is questioning Jerott about the enmity between Mr. Crawford and Graham Mallett and mentions the notorious..."

But do we know the sex of the occupants? Or if this is one more incident of Lymond creating a smoke screen?


message 16: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 29 comments Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "Sarita wrote: "Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "Aha! I have found the allegations of homosexuality! Leone Strozzi is questioning Jerott about the enmity between Mr. Crawford and Graham Mallett and mention..."

Dunnett is excellent at smoke screens; if the door was never opened, we don't even know if there WAS another person in the room; note: Lymond was an excellent mimic, so even if the voice did not seem to be his...do we know for certain?


message 17: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 314 comments Mod
We don't, of course, Maybe he was having homosexual sex. But we never see through FC's eyes a desire for men. I think it's more likely that he was building his reputation and smoke screening his spying efforts to find out who was going to try to kill the little Queen next.

I just finished the part in PiF where they are all held prisoners in Dragut's palace by the Aga Morat. That whole section is so ripe with innuendo it practically makes the pages sweat! The first time I read this book, I was in such a hurry to find out what happened to the baby, that I was pretty oblivious to all the undercurrents, but this time! Wow! And it's perfectly clear that Lymond is unhappy with his role as the Aga's lover. His sarcasm about the ring, the fight that he has with him, etc. And Guzel argues with the Aga that he is driving them to another escape attempt and suggests he let her give them wine or drug them and then he can visit whoever he wants. And poor oblivious Jerott, half crazed by his illness, his bewilderment at the changes in Lymond, and then by his recognition that Lymond is a catamite! Poor homophobic Jerott.

And in the middle of that, between their escape from the Aga and Philippa's trip with the Geomalers, we get a glimpse of poor little Khaireddin. It breaks my heart.


message 18: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 314 comments Mod
Marthe is just unremittingly nasty, isn't she? I'd just like to smack her sometimes.


message 19: by Grace (new)

Grace (greengrace) | 71 comments Marthe gets 'moved' around so much by DD I don't know what to make of her. She definitely was a good guy at the end of PiF but I certainly want to pour a ice bucket over head in CM. Except the part where she goes to see Philippa at Sevigny, her care and concern for Lymond is evident there if kinda misguided.
I'm never sure what to think about Marthe I careen back and forth kinda like Marthe herself.


message 20: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 314 comments Mod
Well, she's just eaten alive by bitterness and it seeps out of her onto everyone she encounters. I do think she cares, somewhat for both Jerott and Lymond, but doesn't dare let herself.


message 21: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 314 comments Mod
And yet, at the end of Pawn in Frankincense, Marthe says to Francis, "You see, I am not here to mock. I have worn out my revenge. You have guided me into a world which has been closed to me all my life. You have shown me that what I hold by, you hold by and more. You have shown me the strength I do not possess, and humanity I thought belonged only to women. You are a man, and you have explained all men to me..."

The weaving together of the events at the end of this book is nothing short of masterful. It is unutterably sad and tragic, and yet they all go on and fight and leave. Graham Reid Mallett's evil is at last over. And Francis' heroism and character are the force that drives them all to be better than they are.

Oh, if only Marthe had remembered what she learned.


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