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SERIES—List & Discussions > Wars of Light & Shadow--Fugitive Prince, Ch XIII, XIV - FINALE SPOILERS!

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message 1: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments The game board re-sets for the next strategy.

The book opened with a child born under a prophecy, and ends with the thread of his fate...

Lysaer has drawn a firm line....

A shipwright forced to a betrayal, a man survives a grimward (watch this character!)....'saved' by Lysaer...

And Arithon must recoup from a failure that tests every facet of his inner values...

How did you feel upon finishing?
Where do you think this is going?
What (or how many) 'grand conspiracies' are poised to be set into play as we finish Fugitive Prince and look at the opening stage of the next volume in the Alliance of Light?


message 2: by Kerry (new)

Kerry (rocalisa) | 487 comments I'm just jumping in to pat myself on the back and announce that I've caught up and finished and feeling very proud of myself. The best description I have for how I feel on finishing is wrung out.

I'm not convinced Lysaer's firm line is all that firm, or pehaps that Lysaer isn't as firm as he thinks he is. Let me get my thoughts straight and get back to you.

In terms of where things are going overall, this is where I'm feeling a bit unclear about things. The books read, especially in this one, as if it's all about Lysaer and Arithon and the conflict between them.

But if it's really about defeating the Mistwraith and setting the world back in balance and recovering the Paravians, then what's going on now is almost a sub-plot, or perhaps a fore-plot. Surely the insanity and emnity caused by the curse needs be be sorted with a book (or preferably a few books) to spare in order to resolve everything else. So at this point, my sense of pacing is totally confused and that makes it very difficult for me to have a sense of where things are going. Does that even make sense?


message 3: by orannia (new)

orannia I'm with Kerry - completely wrung out after that book. Also, I think my memory of the various plot point (from a previous reads) has faded so I'm decidedly nervous about what is to come.

I found Lysaer's 'discussion' with Lirenda and his subsequent actions to be...unjust to say the least. I still don't believe all of his actions can be laid at the feet (if wraiths have feet :) of the Mistwraith... As for Lirenda...way to run and hide from oneself! And the Koriani...I do think they have lost their way. Morriel seems far more concerned about the survival of the Koriani and not about the fact that if the free wraiths find Athera it won't matter who has the upper hand because every living thing will die! Almost every faction seems to have tunnel vision...

I worry about the survival of the clans. If the various clan bloodlines die out, does that mean the compact is null and void?

And I worry about all the nefarious plotting by Lysaer's sycophants...I can't see this getting better any time soon.


message 4: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments Kerry wrote: "I'm just jumping in to pat myself on the back and announce that I've caught up and finished and feeling very proud of myself. The best description I have for how I feel on finishing is wrung out.
..."


Kerry, I was hoping someone would jump in on this and discuss a bit - however, it's holiday time, so here goes.

Is this series about defeating the Mistwraith. Yes.
Is this about setting the world back in balance. Yes.
Is this about the Paravians? Yes.
Is it about Lysaer and Arithon and the conflicts they have with THEMSELVES and with each other? Yes.

All that. And more.

This book does not rush into the major resolutions BECAUSE you don't know all of the angles of impact, yet.

Really, you don't know, yet, what the Paravians ARE. How they live on the world, and what enables their survival, and WHY their survival on Athera is critcal.

You have a sense of who the Fellowship are, and are just starting to see what drives the Koriathain, but - there are many more layers and levels which will unveil, bit by bit, and each one will revise your assessment of these factions.

You are JUST starting to scrape the surface of the reason why clan bloodlines are important, and what their function is on Athera. None of this is arbitrary.

To be 'shown' all these layers and levels in action as opposed to being TOLD like a history book - each scene sets the stage for something much bigger, using the drama between characters to do so.

The fact you cannot see where this is going yet means it will take you somewhere you have NEVER been. The elements are all going to orchestrate.

By the time you reach the later two books in this arc, you will be seeing about NINE LAYERS of stuff all moving at once; and it will be effortless; there will be no pause to explain, because each dramatic impact will have set the various bits into unforgettable motion.

So don't worry about being confused; each scene will resolve itself; just set back and ride along.

The pace in Grand Conspiracy will pick up; and pick up again, dramatically in the third book - so that when you hit the last two books, the story is in full convergency/you may not be able to stop, then.

Perhaps an older reader can loan more non-spoiling insight for you.


message 5: by Kerry (new)

Kerry (rocalisa) | 487 comments Oh, I'm not really asking for insight. I have gone far enough now that I have faith in you as the author and I have faith in the story. I shall simply enjoy the unfolding as it happens.

One of the things you mentioned that I've certainly noticed we have hints about but no answers yet is the importance of the clan bloodlines and I look forward to finding out more about that.


message 6: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments Kerry wrote: "Oh, I'm not really asking for insight. I have gone far enough now that I have faith in you as the author and I have faith in the story. I shall simply enjoy the unfolding as it happens.

One of t..."


Nice to have earned that word of trust. :) I suspect this book will incite more review in later volumes, as certain events and characters and the impacts of these scenes carries forward.

I've always said this volume is sort of the bastard step child of the series for that reason - there's a nontraditional founding just starting to be laid, and people get waylaid by traditional thinking. ;)


message 7: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1141 comments I recently revised my original review of this book upward from 4 stars to 5 because of all I saw on the reread that didn't sink in the first time. The book is, essentially, a stage setter for what comes next.

I am so enjoying everyone's comments as they bring back very fond memories of reading the series in a galloping gulp first time through and all the various emotions evoked.

I'm essentially a person who has strong reactions initially and then goes back to sort out the nuance. Orianna, I found Lysaer's actions in that scene with Lirenda contemptible. Her outraged reaction is perhaps the one and only time I agreed whole heartedly with her.

I was just appalled by the way Lysaer treated Talith. I know he had deep feelings about it afterwards, but it doesn't excuse his behavior. I didn't like Talith much originally, but I grew to respect her spunk later on, and when she was killed I thought it was unutterably tragic.

Caolle just wrenched my heart out with his courage and his brilliance.

The Koriani are like many tyrants - too much power, envy of those who have more, inability to temper anything with compassion has set them on a course that will ultimately destroy everything.

Good reading.


message 8: by Mawgojzeta (new)

Mawgojzeta | 178 comments I am so not a fan of Lysaer right now! He just pisses me off when he isn't disappointing me. And it has gotten to the point where I just don't care how much might be part of the curse. As Orianna comment,(message 3) I also do not believe his actions can be totally blamed on the Mistwraith. The curse is pulling on things already inside him; things he would already be capable of (to some degree or another). We all have the ability to be terrible.

Very interested to see the outcome of Sulfin Evend coming out of the grimward.


message 9: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1141 comments Mawgojzeta wrote: "I am so not a fan of Lysaer right now! He just pisses me off when he isn't disappointing me. And it has gotten to the point where I just don't care how much might be part of the curse. As Oriann..."

Grin, I like the way you think. Me, too. Can't stand the insufferable s-o-b.


message 10: by Shel, Moderator (new)

Shel (shel99) | 2354 comments Mod
Chiming in to agree with you guys! I went through a brief period of feeling sorry for him, but I got over it pretty quickly.

I finished this last week but was too busy to jot down my thoughts at the time, and now that I'm immersed in Under Heaven any insights I had have completely flown my pregnant brain, so I don't have anything new to add to the discussion at the moment, but...yeah. Loved it. I remember that much. :)


message 11: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments Your impressions - definitely an Authorial Duct Tape Moment. ;)


message 12: by Mawgojzeta (new)

Mawgojzeta | 178 comments Haha!


message 13: by Kerry (new)

Kerry (rocalisa) | 487 comments I'm not sure how coherent this is, but I thought I'd toss it out there before we move on to the next book. I scribbed this on a piece of paper after reading chapter 13.

Is Lysaer internally conflicted to the point of mental breakdown, which he's preventing by an increasingly illogical thought process?

He's convinced himself his curse-driven course is just, but the things he's doing in its name (and I don't believe all of that is cuse-driven) are frequently very unjust. If he let himself recognise this, his own sense of justice would destroy him, so he's blinding himself to the injustice of his own actions.

This is attempt at beliving two mutually exclusive things at once is something he can't deal with, and so he's burying it. As a result, his very mental logic appears to be breaking down (as shown in his "interview" with Lirenda at Corith). Pieces of his views make sense individually, but it all begins to break down if you try to put it all together.

I've totally lost track of whether anything he does is a genuine reaction or machination. Has he too or is he in total control?

Jieret is unbelievably important to Arithon, as he's the one who can reach him and through that, help him to reconcile his internal conflicts, at least to some degree - as we saw in chapter 13.

Lysaer has no-one and I think perhaps he's cracking up as badly as Arithon, but less visibly. And he's got no-one who actually loves and believes in him the way Arithon has. Lysaer has lots of sheep and a bunch of venal people out for themselves. There's adulation, but not really any true loyalty.

When I'm not actually reading about Lysaer, I can feel very sorry for him when/if it all breaks down and he has to face his own terrible injustices done in the name of justice. And if he's to gain redemption (such as Airthon seeks and considers imself unworthy for, but Lysaer appears to have no idea he might need) it has to be faced.

But then, I read about what he's doing and I'm so completely annoyed with his (apparent?) hypocrisy and the things he's doing. In the last few chapters he got upraded in my notes from "ass" to "bastard".

And is it the sign of a very good book or a deranged reader (or both) that I keep addressing both princes (and occasionally other characters) directly in my notes?


message 14: by Bill (new)

Bill (kernos) | 334 comments I've still about a Chapter and half to read but have been feeling some underlying threads I'd not thought about before. These have to do with the Princes and their supporters.

Politics: I am getting a distinct feeling of a conservative (Lysaerian) vs liberal (Arithonian) politics which seems quite pertinent to that situation in the US today. Lysaer has become a theocrat, propagandist, supporter of 'big business' and the rich and powerful, all things I associate with the right wingers today. Arithon is as opposite as light is to shadow. His concern is for the average person, freedom of ideas and beliefs, support for those concerned with the land and its ecology. If it came up, I am sure Lysaer would be anti-abortion, anti gay marriage... and Arithon pro such things. I find it hard to believe that the masses opinions can be so manipulated by someone like Lysaer. But, then I have trouble believing public opinion can be so manipulated by spin or propaganda in the real world. Why do the masses need to be told what to believe? Beats me. I will never understand humanity. I think this is called alienation. Humans are aliens on Athera.

The other thing I've been 'feeling' deals with ecology. Arithon and his supporters, the clans are concerned with the Land, the Planet, it's flora and fauna and with its native sentients, the Paravians and their past. Lysaer would let the profiteers cut down all the trees, foul the air, cause global warming. Arithon would save all if this and the culture that were stewards of Athera.

What I find ironic is that Arithon and the Clans look back to the good old days of Monarchies, Kings and Lords and the implication of a feudal system, a most conservative POV. Still Lysaer as King with a bunch of Mayors and guild leaders in power seems much the same, by other names.

I've not really thought this thru in detail, as I say they are feelings, and I think it likely a liberal vs conservative, an ecological crises like we have in the real world would fail on close inspection. Still I wonder if Janny is making some statements about such things.

A few other thoughts:

The Koriani are seeming more and more like the Bene Gesserit, who I know a lot better. Both use their special powers to manipulate politics (and religion?) for their own ends. Both are called witches for good reason. Both are all female. I wonder what this says about women? Historically, women have generally been most successful by working behind the scenes, being the real power behind the throne, from that of a kingdom to that of a household. Having said that I feel the need to hide in a dark, secret place. But, if you read history, it has generally been true (and I know there are a lot of exceptions).

I think I detect a difference in writing style when a chapter is about Lysear and his allies compared to Arithon and his. Almost a formal vs a poetic style.

As I have gotten deeper in the books, I feel a need to do more reading and less talking about reading.

tWoLaS is an absolutely magnificent piece of art, from any imaginable point of view, a thing to experience, to study, to research.

Gotta go to work...


message 15: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments Kernos wrote: "I've still about a Chapter and half to read but have been feeling some underlying threads I'd not thought about before. These have to do with the Princes and their supporters.

Politics: I am ge..."


That is fascinating, your notation on the style shift.

For the rest - as the story evolves, not everything is as it appears - each volume will peel back another layer, and another assumption will go to pieces. If you find others are quiet about your very observant and interesting post - it's because they may have seen past the point of view. Hopefully there may be a few who are catching up, or near, where you are in the narrative so there can be some discussion.

It's a great joy to see your insights and to know you are enjoying the work.


message 16: by Janny (new)

Janny (jannywurts) | 1003 comments Kernos wrote: "I've still about a Chapter and half to read but have been feeling some underlying threads I'd not thought about before. These have to do with the Princes and their supporters.

Politics: I am ge..."


I can safely comment on this: the Bene Gesseret in Dune had a goal of producing a male who could work their magic...that was their entire reason for being, and for controlling politics - was to produce the ideal genetic cross (IF I remember my Dune right, I read it a very long time ago).

To understand the goal of the Koriathain and what they seek, you need to understand the contour of what their 'moral high ground' actually is.

If the goal were taken into consideration, there is a marked difference between the two. Though their methods may look the same...perhaps.

A fun thing to watch: they are not the only female power in the world...watch for others.


message 17: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1141 comments The Biedar tribe is very matriarchal. Also, the old way of dealing with the land and of having kings is anything but a feudal system. I don't think we've learned the full story of the system yet, but the king ships are not inherited, I know that. Asandir appoints or anoints the kings and it's not a blood thing. The blood lines are important for their breeding to be able to stand the exposure to the ecstasy of the Paravians, not for establishing 'royal lines' for rule. Also the kings were servants of the land, not vice versa.


message 18: by Sandra (new)

Sandra  (sleo) | 1141 comments Kernos said: tWoLaS is an absolutely magnificent piece of art, from any imaginable point of view, a thing to experience, to study, to research.

Absolutely. It's nice to watch someone else appreciate it at that level.


message 19: by Bill (new)

Bill (kernos) | 334 comments Janny wrote: "... A fun thing to watch: they are not the only female power in the world...watch for others.
..."


Oh good! I am looking forward to more discoveries.

Another group the Koriani remind me of very generally are the Kamagrian of Storm Constantine's Wraeththu.


message 20: by Bill (new)

Bill (kernos) | 334 comments Finished and reviewed!


message 21: by Kathi, Moderator & Book Lover (new)

Kathi | 3315 comments Mod
Random thoughts as I finished up this book today:

I loved the bit where Arithon played and Lirenda's crystal got "realigned" and she felt it even though she didn't have the crystal with her.

I am most curious about Lirenda's plot and the roles Elaira and Fionn will play in it.

I am curious about where Arithon will go searching for the Paravians next.

I found Sethvir's caring for Asandir to be very touching. And the strain on the Fellowship of 7 to be very disturbing.


message 22: by Alissa (new)

Alissa | 171 comments I enjoyed Fugitive Prince a lot. After the rushing finale of Vastmark, I liked to read more about the Paravian's compact, the reasons behind the conflict which overthrew the high kings, the creation of the Alliance (and I keep in mind the prologue of Mistwraith, victors write history), the plight of the clanborns and particularly, I loved to discover the story along with the growing cast of characters! It was intense to follow Caolle, Mearn, Lirenda and the Fellowship as much as Arithon. And the magic is musical, all the scenes involving the Koriani, the Fellowship or Arithon himself are superb!
I wonder what it is in store for the drakes, if Asandir had so much trouble handling a dead drake's dream...
Lysaer, well, the best politician ever! The townborns are a flock of gullible sheep, but really he's a natural of manipulation. I just don't feel he's completely overcome by the curse, yet, I think he knows his actions for the "greater good" are questionable. I would also like to gain more info about his handling of the distaff gift of farsight.

I'm very curious about the fifteen-year trap Lirenda is spinning.... and I want to know where the Paravians are...

And now I'm with the Sundering Star, I want to know more about the origins of those Koriani meddlers! Morriel rocks, btw.

I guess I'm simply avid for more tWoLaS, this book has set higher stakes and I cannot really imagine what will change the current grim outlook of the Paravian law enforcers...


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