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Debates > History - Men or Women?

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message 1: by Amina (new)

Amina  (journalistam) message 36: by Michele (new) 12 hours, 18 min ago

I am passionate about women's history...there is not enough of it in public schools until you hit college. Primary & high school texts have probably 50 famous men for every famous woman. partly that is because history counts male oriented events such as war,hierarchal power etc etc. anybody have any thoughts about this?



message 2: by Amina (new)

Amina  (journalistam) Alright so.... I agree a lot of history is about men and hardly any women come in it when studying in school/College or whatever. BUT, Men have played a much bigger role in history than women. That doesn't mean women haven't done anything that we should be proud of... but that men dominate history because men HAVE dominated history, if you get what I mean. And seriously I don't think historians have anything against women that they aren't going to add any important events that included women.


message 3: by Emma (new)

Emma (zeeberg) I'm sure some things have been erased or altered in the history books, regarding women. After all, the world had thought less of women for many, many centuries. It is true that men plays the biggest part in our history, but one can imagine why:

1. Men were not as subtle as women. If a woman did something for the world, she'd probably have manipulated a bit and generally hidden it all from the world. Noone would ever know.
2. Women didn't have the same rights and possibilities as men. many of the "big" men have had an education. It's not that long ago women were allowed a proper education.
3. Men and, ehm, figthing. That is not to say that women don't fight, we just tend to use words and manipulation instead of fists and bullets.

And remeber also that even if most of the "good" people in history are men, most of the "bad" are men too.

That isn't to say that a woman can't become a dictator and make the same mess as men. I'm sure it'll happen at some point. Cause we are all humans.


message 4: by Amina (new)

Amina  (journalistam) True true, but now that women didn't play a major part in history... what can we do about it? Make up history? I agree that women were thought low and back wards and all and couldn't really do anything but now that's it done and over, we can't study women history because it didn't happen. LOL get what I mean?


message 5: by Emma (new)

Emma (zeeberg) Well, I am pretty sure that some woman history did happen. There's a lot of female history during the last 100 years. And I'm sure there's a lot before that, but it's hard to study it, 'cause it hasn't really been mentioned all that much in history books. I do agree that we should learn about what female history we have though. But it should also be valid, not just something we learn about simply because it's women history.


message 6: by Michele (new)

Michele bookloverforever (lovebooks14) | 158 comments there was a woman involved in the big DNA "discovery",she got robbed...a woman invented the 1st program/language for a computer in the 18th century, why don't we know her name. ..Martha Washington & Abigail Adams kept their farms going while their men were off fignting..Sappho wrote poetry, does anyone know who Hypatia was and what she did? Livia, Octavians wife was the real power behind the throne as anyone who read Robert Graves knows. I suggest you read "Women's Quotations"..there are several books. Do you know who Margaret Fuller is, she was very involved in the transcendentalist(?) movement. Lucy Stone? Elizabeth Blackwell, George Eliot? George Sand? women served in the American Revolution and the Civil War. Look how long it took for women in the armed forces to be recognized for their participation in WWII. Look at Margaret Sanger, Lucretia Mott, Louise Bryant...believe me, women made plenty of history..a lot of the time the men just usurped the invention or discovery. ..Florence Nightingale, Joan of Arc....but so long as we concentrate on battles and war, then women are practically invisible. Do the history books mention 300 yrs worth of witch burnings or the effect that had on women? If we are lucky the history books mention Madame Curie and Susan B.Anthony...Cleopatra perhaps but only as regards her relationships with powerful men not as a ruler of Egypt. Hatshepsut was practically erased from Egyptian history. No, there is a lot of women's history.


message 7: by Emma (new)

Emma (zeeberg) Ahm, my history books actually do mention a lot of that. My 9th grade exams where about womens fight for thei right to vote, and the awesome women who'd fought.

As for Cleopratra she's pften mentioned as a ruler, not necerserily Ceasars Lover. Joan of Arc is very well-known too. As is Amelia Earhart, Mother Teressa, Marie Antoniette, Winnie Mandela, Josephine Baker, Clara Barton and so on. Sure, when we focuse on war, men have more to do with it. In historical books, men generally have more to do with everything, because it has a greater impact on our world. What does Mother Teressa have to do with me and my society? Right now, we're learning about things that's valid for our society now. Like old Greece and Rome and Egypt.


TinCanKreations (TCCreationsKable) | 21 comments All that crap is true. just sayin!


message 9: by Courtney (new)

Courtney | 71 comments .a woman invented the 1st program/language for a computer in the 18th century, why don't we know her name. ..."

I thought Grace Hopper invented computer programing language in the 20th century and we still know her name


Rachel (aka. Kaiserin Sisi) (looney-lovegood) | 244 comments My AP Euro and US textbooks did a rather good job with bringing up the importance of women in history, mostly because they focused more on society than on wars, and when wars were mentioned, it was mostly in the context of those wars' effects.


message 11: by Courtney (new)

Courtney | 71 comments ^ I'm taking AP US History, and the one thing I hate is that war is presented as logistical, instead of focusing on the political and social effects it merely focuses on number killed, place, date, stategy


message 12: by Rachel (aka. Kaiserin Sisi) (last edited Nov 21, 2010 05:20PM) (new)

Rachel (aka. Kaiserin Sisi) (looney-lovegood) | 244 comments Really? My book was the exact opposite, mostly. It didn't have as much of a focus on those effects as my Euro text, but it was still good. Sorry to hear that. :(


message 13: by Amina (new)

Amina  (journalistam) Erm Michele. As Emma said, I have heard about some of the women you've named. I've been out of world history for a long time, but I've heard/read abt cleopatra, florence nightingale, mother teresa and a few others a lot. It's not that men have wiped out any women history there is.

And as for you saying that 'women did this and women did that' and the men stole their ideas or watever... that happens even in the men sector. There are some inventions that were made by muslims yet the name goes to some britisher or american. These things happen.... it isn't necessarily just wid women.


message 14: by Michele (new)

Michele bookloverforever (lovebooks14) | 158 comments women have always had a place in wartime: we did most of the nursing...we were the ones raped during wartime and please don't say that does not happen because it has always happened. rape is about violence and you do not get more violent than war and battle...women have made great spies. we just never or hardly ever hear their names.


message 15: by Michele (new)

Michele bookloverforever (lovebooks14) | 158 comments also, who writes the history books? The ones I read were put together by men who concentrate on other men and manly things...millions of little girls grow up reading a random woman's name here and there...thinking that women must not do things to be famous for. I had to go outside the school to learn about famous women. My childhood heroines: Annie Oakley, Amelia Earhart. I recently read about Beryl Markham. We cannot afford for another generation to think women are invisible in the pages of history.


message 16: by Amina (new)

Amina  (journalistam) You know Michele. I'd rather read about how hitler ruled then read the names of all the women raped. I know it happens, but that isn't exactly the idea of history. Where in that is any useful information in dat? Where in the names of the women raped do you see us knowin about how our ancestors did this and dat?


message 17: by Emma (new)

Emma (zeeberg) Hey, i agree that we should learn Women history too. Whe it's valid. You knwo the thing about cleopatra, she really didn't do amything besides having a love affair and die in the way she did. She didn't do any great things. Niw nefertitti, she was a great woman, and she is remembered because of the good she brought for her country. We learn about thr woman history that is valid for our history-classes. And i dont know how your school was and what books they read, but it certainly aint like that here. I read plenty about women in my history books.


message 18: by Michele (new)

Michele bookloverforever (lovebooks14) | 158 comments I grew up a long,long time ago. But, when I monitored my son's 8th grade history book back in the 1980's it only mentioned 4 women.: susan b. anthony, abigail adams, dolley madison and amelia earhart. that is a lot of women not mentioned. what did all the young women in that class think? that women never did anything of course. Whenever I mention some woman I consider famous, like Crista McAuliffe, I get a lot of "who?". and she is modern and famous. I just think we are letting a lot of young girls and women get the idea that women never do anything important. and that is not only wrong it's dangerous.


message 19: by Michele (new)

Michele bookloverforever (lovebooks14) | 158 comments you are right. It is not just women these things happen to. it happens to all the powerless or those with a lot less power anyway. But how many muslim inventions/discoveries are attributed to men and how many to women? why do you think that is? surely not because muslim women have no thoughts except family matters. Do you think it might have happened to muslim women too?


message 20: by Michele (new)

Michele bookloverforever (lovebooks14) | 158 comments tell me about famous muslim women. I would really like to know because to me all women are important. It does not matter what culture you come from or what religion either. Catholics have many female saints..


message 21: by Emma (last edited Nov 22, 2010 09:32AM) (new)

Emma (zeeberg) The history books in The 1980's arent exactly the same history books we have today. There's like a thirty year difference. Women had just gotten equal rights back then. It's very different now. And men are mentioned more in history books, but they have more obvioud points to play, at least in a lot of the stuff one learns about in the younger educations. And i dont think it's as bad as you make it... All the women and girls i know er very opinionated and strong. All very equal with men, if you can say it that way. It hasn't affected us in any way.


message 22: by Andrez (new)

Andrez (andrez-ssi) My teacher's always said Behind a great man is always a great women...and behind a great woman is always a great man


message 23: by Annemarie (new)

Annemarie Carlson (annielawlz) | 470 comments That's kind of horrible.


message 24: by Amina (new)

Amina  (journalistam) Our islamic history howveer mentions a lot of women. We have the eleven (or thirteen. not ure about that) wives of our Prophet; who are like the mothers of the beleivers to us. Their lives are very important and there are books about the way they lived and everything.

Also, in Pakistan, we have women like Fatimah Ali Jinnah; our founders sister. Her history is taught in schools. I haven't studied here as much as Fariha and Aisha have so you might wanna ask them about this more.

Point is; we are taught about women history, but it's not as much as men because men do have more to do with history than women.


message 25: by Michele (new)

Michele bookloverforever (lovebooks14) | 158 comments If giving birth made history, women would never be invisible in the history books. Being a mom is important but actually making history is too. Who was the prophet's mother?


Fariha (damn you SketchUp!!) (fariha1234) | 1212 comments Hatshepsut was a woman nd a pretty awesome ruler !


Fariha (damn you SketchUp!!) (fariha1234) | 1212 comments Nd so was benazir Bhutto.... It's so sad she got assassinated tho...


Fariha (damn you SketchUp!!) (fariha1234) | 1212 comments @Michele.... Lady Khadijah (sa) is one of the many amazing Islamic women...
She was the first wife of our prophet and also the most successful business woman of her time...after the death of her father she took over the business and it rapidly spread...


Fariha (damn you SketchUp!!) (fariha1234) | 1212 comments Lady Khadija (sa) helped the poor, the widows, the orphans, the sick and the disabled. If there were any poor girls, Lady Khadija (sa) married them off, and gave them dowry.


message 30: by Emma (new)

Emma (zeeberg) That's really sweet :) She sounds like a good person.

Though by marrying off, you mean?


Fariha (damn you SketchUp!!) (fariha1234) | 1212 comments as in the girls who very poor and cudnt afford to get maried.. she helped them..as in used her profits in helpin the poor..


message 32: by Amina (new)

Amina  (journalistam) Michele wrote: "If giving birth made history, women would never be invisible in the history books. Being a mom is important but actually making history is too. Who was the prophet's mother?"

The Prophet's mother was Ameena (lol). She was a very good women from a wealthy tribe (name of tribe slipped from my mind). She died in Abwa when the prophet was only eight. She was buried there. Not much has been written about her because she died even before he became a Prophet, but we know this much.


message 33: by Amina (new)

Amina  (journalistam) There was another wife Ayehsa r.a. She was the youngest wife of the Prophet, only 9 when she got married. She was the daughter of the Prophet's very best friend. Most of the hadiths (sayings) have been quoted by her because she was so young when she was with the Prophet and as very talented.


message 34: by Joyzi (new)

Joyzi (joit) | 26 comments yeah I think History is tad patriarchal, even the Bible


message 35: by Amina (new)

Amina  (journalistam) The Bible has been changed..


message 36: by Michele (new)

Michele bookloverforever (lovebooks14) | 158 comments actually, it wasn't changed so much that there is some discussion as to interpretation of hebrew,greek and aramaic words. Also, as to christians and the new testament: a group of men/bishops got togetheer and decided which "gospels" would go into the official new testament and they decided what was and was not "heretical" thus excluding certain books and treatises. These "bishops" decided what was and was not heretical.


message 37: by Amina (new)

Amina  (journalistam) We beleive the Bible has been changed... like for example, the Bible had stuff about the coming of Prophet. But when they saw that the Prophet Muhammad didn't come from their lineage, they changed it to hide the truth from the people.

We muslims beleive in the original Bible since Allah sent down that Book too. But it has been changed... and therefore Allah sent his last Boook - The Qurasn and promised it wouldn't be changed.


message 38: by Michele (new)

Michele bookloverforever (lovebooks14) | 158 comments amina, one of my best friends was a divinity student at Harvard and studied from the original sources. the old testament tells of a messiah. some prophets: Samuel, Ezekial etc...nothing about your prophet. the new testament has nothing in it about your prophet. but then again, there were some sources excluded, including the gospel of mary magdalen. I don't believe in your prophet. what I have read of your holy book is derivative of the old testament which came first.


Fariha (damn you SketchUp!!) (fariha1234) | 1212 comments Michele wrote: "amina, one of my best friends was a divinity student at Harvard and studied from the original sources. the old testament tells of a messiah. some prophets: Samuel, Ezekial etc...nothing about your ..."

How can bible tell you people about our prophet? Our prophet came after Jesus!


Rachel (aka. Kaiserin Sisi) (looney-lovegood) | 244 comments Michele wrote: "amina, one of my best friends was a divinity student at Harvard and studied from the original sources. the old testament tells of a messiah. some prophets: Samuel, Ezekial etc...nothing about your ..."

I believe that what Amina is saying is that Muslims believe that the Bible was altered to exclude any mention of Muhammmad.


Fariha (damn you SketchUp!!) (fariha1234) | 1212 comments Rachel (aka. Kaiserin Sisi) wrote: "Michele wrote: "amina, one of my best friends was a divinity student at Harvard and studied from the original sources. the old testament tells of a messiah. some prophets: Samuel, Ezekial etc...not..."

hmm interesting.. i dont know much about bible so i cant say anything.. alll i know is that our prophet came after jesus.. so i dont think it would have bin mentioned in bible.


message 42: by Amina (new)

Amina  (journalistam) Yes, it was Far! It had the coming of Muhammad p.b.u.h. but the Rabi's changed it because the Prophet didn't come from their lineage...

And Michele, as I said, we beleived in the ORIGINAL bible too... much of it would be the same as Quran then wouldn't it?


Fariha (damn you SketchUp!!) (fariha1234) | 1212 comments Amina wrote: "Yes, it was Far! It had the coming of Muhammad p.b.u.h. but the Rabi's changed it because the Prophet didn't come from their lineage...

And Michele, as I said, we beleived in the ORIGINAL bible ..."


like i said i dont know anything about bible so cant say anything


message 44: by Michele (new)

Michele bookloverforever (lovebooks14) | 158 comments Amina, I lost my taste for organized religions awhile ago. As sonia johnson once said "beware men who say "god told me to tell you"...because if god really wanted you to know something, god would tell you directly." made sense to me. Jesus Christ gave only 2 commandments: 1)love the god,thy god ..2)love one another as I have loved you." that's what I try to do and I believe Christ meant all human beings not just other christians.


message 45: by Amina (new)

Amina  (journalistam) Yes, we beleive in Jesus too... but he wasn't christian for us. He was only framed that way after he was lifted up to heaven by God. And oh, he wasn't the son of God. Also, yes, God speaks to us directly... through his Books. He sent the Bible... which was changed and other Books. The last Book - Quran - was His final word to us.


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