Save The Babies discussion

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Women's Health

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message 1: by Lara (last edited Jul 14, 2008 10:38AM) (new)

Lara Torgesen Many of you have rightly stated that it's ridiculous to assume that all women who get pregnant are at risk of dying. Fortunately modern medicine has made it very rare to die from pregnancy complications in the first world. But what many of you forget is that abortion often happens for reasons of the woman's health which have nothing to do with her pregnancy.

I was diagnosed with skin cancer when I was five months pregnant with my third child. Fortunately for me, it was caught very early and treated topically without any risk to my pregnancy.

What if it had been Stage III Malignant Melanoma and I required immediate surgery followed by radiation and chemo? Anyone who knows anything about Melanoma knows that time is of the essence in these cases. If caught and treated early, it is almost 100 percent curable. If not, it is almost 100 percent fatal. What should I have done then? And how exactly would that have been your business to have a say in it?

As for the people who stand outside abortion clinics calling out things like, "Murderer!" "Please don't kill me, Mommy! I want to live!" How do you know that the woman walking into that clinic was not recently diagnosed with breast cancer and has not spent the past two weeks crying and praying to God to know what to do? Who is being heartless and cruel now? And how exactly can you presume to know what God's answer was to her? Did he reveal that to you as well?

As for the labels of abortion doctors as sadistic, evil baby killers, I would like to remind you that they have taken an oath to do everything within their powers to act in the best health interest of their patient. The pregnant woman is their patient--not the fetus! They are doing their job, sometimes at the risk of their own lives and family's lives. They get hate mail and death threats all the time, but they continue to do their job out of commitment to their patients. It's not a job I would want, but I'm glad that they exist.


message 2: by Brigid ✩ (new)

Brigid ✩ Thank you for sharing this information, Lara. It's very important that we all understand these things.


message 3: by Trinka (last edited Jul 14, 2008 03:54PM) (new)

Trinka (trinkaofcanada) | 36 comments I have to wonder if that is truly 'often' the case, or just occasionally the case. At any rate, I have no idea what other religions say about this, but I know what the Catholic Church states. A person could morally do whatever she needed to do to preserve her own health, aside from abortion. For example, if the woman needed chemo, or radiation, and as a result of treatment, lost her baby, she could still morally recieve her treatment. Both lives perhaps could not be saved. She could not morally abort her baby. That wouldn't help her anyway, would it?
As for whose business is it, we voice our opinions according to what we believe God Himself has told us. Obviously, ultimately it would be the woman's decision, since abortion is legal. But given the chance, a pro-life person would try to help the woman in question make the right decision.
'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.' Jer 1:5
Lara, you have previously referred to God, so I ask you, keeping the quote in mind,do you really think abortion is okey-dokey with the Almighty?
By the way, of course there are people that shout 'murderer' at abortion clinics, there are those who would kill an abortion doctor. I don't think that is the majority. I personally do not know any pro-lifers that would say or do that. Rather, we would go to a clinic to pray and offer guidance. And so what, cry a river for the abortion doctor who gets called names. There are janitors who are daily mocked at schools, for having to do there job, and policemen and lawyers who recieve death threats. There are poor people who trudge to the rendering plant for a miserable day of work. I feel no pity for the abortion doctor, in his miserable profession of choice!


message 4: by Lara (new)

Lara Torgesen Actually I do think a fetus dying is okay with God, since he actually terminates a full 1/4 of all pregnancies on his own. Or is that okay because God did it and he is testing our faith? It seems rather cruel and heartless to make the baby pay the price in God's object lesson.


message 5: by Brigid ✩ (new)

Brigid ✩ Seriously. How come if a woman has an abortion, she's suddenly called a 'heartless baby killer', but if a woman has a miscarriage, 'it was God's will'? If that's true, then God is seriously cruel. God is a really poor excuse. If a woman has an abortion, she's taking one life. God has taken billions of innocent lives.


message 6: by Trinka (last edited Jul 14, 2008 04:00PM) (new)

Trinka (trinkaofcanada) | 36 comments 'The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away...'
Yes of course it is 'okay' when God decides, or are you saying we are on the same level as He? Are you saying that a person murdering a family is the same thing as a family being swept away and drowned in a flood, God being the 'murderer'?
Again, I have to keep saying this, life was never promised to be easy or fair. Losing a child is not easy. If you want to start blaming God for everything, go ahead. What this discussion all boils down to is the question of whether or not we think we should be allowed to kill babies. I don't think I will take it upon myself to decide what God is or is not at liberty to do!
By the way, if a woman miscarries, it is not her fault (unless she did something out of carelessness or on purpose, obviously). If she aborts her child, it was her decision so of course it is entirely different.


message 7: by Trinka (new)

Trinka (trinkaofcanada) | 36 comments True, it is difficult to discuss something like this with someone who says she doesn't believe in God, because my life depends on Him, and without Him nothing makes sense. But Lara has referred to Him, so I am assuming she believes.


message 8: by Diana (new)

Diana  (higura_natume) | 48 comments i think that the no abortion should have some exceptions

i mean, if it's either the mother survives or they both die, im sure the baby would be happy to sacrifice itself for the Mother

and rape is another different point

this time, it wasn't the mother's fault and i admit, the idea of having a baby that has the rapists blood is a little hard.
but i dunno, im a little iffy on this one.


message 9: by Rowan (last edited Oct 31, 2008 09:59AM) (new)

Rowan (rowanintheskywithdiamonds) | 53 comments ^OH MY GOD.

That's the most stupid thing I've ever heard anyone say. I'm sure you won't have that view if you ever get raped while you're working home, or during any of a thousand different situations you could find yourself in. Rape is NEVER the victims fault, or it wouldn't be rape.

I have a male friend who was raped by his Godfather. It sure as hell wasn't his fault. I have never met a female who was raped but if my friend is anything to go by, then very few rape victims are in the emotional state to go through nine months of pregnancy, with that constant reminder there...It would be far more inhumane than abortion to subject a woman to that!




message 10: by Rowan (last edited Oct 31, 2008 10:47AM) (new)

Rowan (rowanintheskywithdiamonds) | 53 comments It ISN'T that simple. At all. In a lot of those situations, the woman are terrified and the man is controlling them. You can't say you understand the pyschlogical state of a woman in that situation, because you don't. (And if you're lucky you never will.)

In any case, it is never the victims fault, and I don't think a rape victim should be forced to carry her rapists baby. I care more about the well-being of that woman than of the fetus growing inside of her.


message 11: by Diana (new)

Diana  (higura_natume) | 48 comments unless the girl walks into the rapists house and asks for it and then like right before says NO! and gets it anyway

it's not her fault

although i do get mad when i see those movies where the girl's just randomly screaming and not fighting back

unless she asks for it, (which isn't really possible since you can't rape the willing) it's NOT her fautl.


message 12: by Rowan (last edited Nov 01, 2008 03:35AM) (new)

Rowan (rowanintheskywithdiamonds) | 53 comments "Ok, but it still isn't HER baby and let me just say that if I never get raped, (and I won't) it will because I was cautious and didn't get my self into bad situations!"

You don't KNOW that you will never be raped. It can happen to anyone.

Geez, you seem very ignorant on these matters. You could be raped walking home from work one day, or on holiday, or at a party where you thought you were safe. It's nothing to do with being cautious. (I'm not saying you WILL be raped, 'cause yeah, chances are you won't, but what's the point in ignorantly jinxing yourself?)

I think forcing a rape victim to keep a baby or even just go through with the pregnancy is a MILLON more times inhumane than abortion.

You've obviously never met met a rape victim, and I seriously have to say that don't even TRY to understand it till you have, 'cause you really don't get it. The woman is definitely more important than the baby in this situation.


message 13: by Rowan (last edited Nov 01, 2008 03:36AM) (new)

Rowan (rowanintheskywithdiamonds) | 53 comments "although i do get mad when i see those movies where the girl's just randomly screaming and not fighting back"

Well, sometimes fear stops you from fighting back, you tend to be in shock. And then there's Rohypnol, and under the influence of that most people just have to let it happen...God, it makes me want to burst into tears just thinking about it, it's such a horrible thing.


message 14: by Diana (new)

Diana  (higura_natume) | 48 comments yeah i guess (i wouldn't know anyway)

but some people are glad they kept the baby (like my dad's friend)

i think it depends on whether the mother can handle the idea of the rapists blood going through her baby's body


message 15: by Diana (new)

Diana  (higura_natume) | 48 comments i dunno

but i don't think rape can be your fault unless you willingly go there (oh hell, i can't even think of a situation where it would be the girl's fault!)


message 16: by Eric▲ (new)

Eric▲ | 108 comments ...
i can think of arround 50 thousand.
...
i wont say them because they just take up space.
...



message 17: by Rowan (new)

Rowan (rowanintheskywithdiamonds) | 53 comments No, it isn't. At all. So your basically saying with that theory that the rapist shouldn't take all the blame?

That's like saying it was my friends fault when he was raped because he was in the house!


message 18: by Eric▲ (new)

Eric▲ | 108 comments if you go to anyplace it is always you fault
if you get drunk it was your decision
if you don't use any form of self defence the blame is on you....


message 19: by Rowan (last edited Nov 04, 2008 09:36AM) (new)

Rowan (rowanintheskywithdiamonds) | 53 comments "if you don't use any form of self defence the blame is on you...."

Have you ever heard of the date-rape drug?!

My friend was alone in the house with his rapist. Do you think he saw it coming?!

But the point is, rape is a VERY VERY VERY traumatising experience, it is NEVER the victims fault and they should not be forced to keep a baby if they don't wish to.



message 20: by Eric▲ (new)

Eric▲ | 108 comments nope, never heard of it.
ok, fine.
it's the rapists fault
that she decided to get drunk, do drugs, go to a bar...

oh, wait a minnute...


message 21: by Rowan (last edited Nov 04, 2008 01:16PM) (new)

Rowan (rowanintheskywithdiamonds) | 53 comments Nothing wrong with getting drunk or going to a bar.

ARE YOU LISTENING TO WHAT YOU ARE SAYING?!

THAT THE RAPIST SHOULDN'T BE HELD ENTIRELY RESPONSIBLE WHEN THEY RAPE SOMEONE!

Hate to break it you, but not everyone is raped while they are drunk. More people are probably raped walking home from work then at a bar.

The "date-rape" drug, or Rohypnol, which is it's proper name, is a sedative that is very commonly used by rapists so that they're victims don't fight back. It's most commonly used to spike peoples drinks, but incases where rapists know their victims well (My friend is a prime example of this) it's mixed in with food or even disguised as some other tablet.



message 22: by Eric▲ (new)

Eric▲ | 108 comments ah.
I think i understand now.



message 23: by Diana (new)

Diana  (higura_natume) | 48 comments yeah

while i admit sometimes the girl made a couple of mistakes

there shouldn't be rapists in the first place!


message 24: by Diana (new)

Diana  (higura_natume) | 48 comments well im like insanely paranoid so you'll probably not see me get anywhere near the situation

but there are ways

the guy who sits next to you in class could be a rapist (one of the stories i read in chicken soup for the soul kind of books)

and sometimes people just attack you when you're going home


message 25: by [deleted user] (new)

"A person could morally do whatever she needed to do to preserve her own health, aside from abortion."

Sorry, not true. If the pregnancy puts the mother at risk then chances are the baby will die as well. The Catholic Church, in the CCC sections on killing, states that self-defence or defence of others is an acceptable reason to kill because you are still preserving life. If, unless the pregnancy is terminated, both will die, then the abortion will preserve one life instead of taking both.

If it is one or the other, consult a priest and make sure both parents are there for the decision if possible.


message 26: by Etshadow (new)

Etshadow | 59 comments This subject here is why I love the movie Juno. It is a great pro-life movie that speaks to modern people. Yes she chose to have sex and the decision to have an abortion became an option. But it was the protester outside the abortion clinic that got to her. In this case it was fingernails. Another case is someone yelling the baby is not the problem. If I was back in the states and knew where to go to protest I would.


message 27: by A.K. (new)

A.K. (kthrynwtkns) ppl who r raped will hav 2 carry the memory of that with them 4 the rest of their lives. do u really wanna add 2 that by making them carry their torturers baby?


message 28: by Etshadow (new)

Etshadow | 59 comments Yes but killing the child for the sins of the father is not the answer. There are many stories out there of women that were raped and carried the child to term. They are happy people.


message 29: by A.K. (new)

A.K. (kthrynwtkns) maybe but. but wat if that person is not emotionally stable? they could harm themselves tryin 2 get the baby out, or harm the child once its born.


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