A Song of Ice & Fire Fans discussion

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Speculations [Spoliers]

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message 1: by Lani (new)

Lani (lanisison) | 6 comments Hi! I've just started reading the series and so far I'm hooked! I was just wondering if you guys have any speculations you want to bring up about the story. Spoilers are welcome too.

For me, I was wondering whether Jon really was Ned's son or if he's really Lyanna's and maybe Rhaegar's, and that's why Ned's torn whenever he thought about his sister and Robert.


message 2: by Jayme (new)

Jayme (jaymetheghostreader) | 1113 comments I don't think Jon is Ned's. It could be a possibility that it could be Lyanna's.


message 3: by Will (new)

Will Reeves (shnargen) I hadn't thought of him being Lyanna's, but now it seems obvious. Either way, he is still the descendant of kings. What I feel might happen is that the Wall will fall to the Others therefor dissolving the Watch, and Jon will be free to marry Dany (why i think this needs to happen I don't know, but i do think she has to have someone after drogo in order for her role to have any purpose. Gosh, when I finished the last one I had so many theot=ries, but I can't hardly remember them. That's just a tiny bit of what I've thought of.


message 4: by Will (new)

Will Reeves (shnargen) Also, there needs to be people to ride Dany's dragons. one could be Jon, obviously one Dany, and there needs to be one more. Maybe she'll take a second husband.


message 5: by Allen, Warden of the Northwest (new)

Allen Allen (audiovore) | 71 comments Mod
Well from what I gathered from the prophecy Dany was given was that she was going to marry the Dorne prince to legitimize her claim a bit more and get Dorne on her side. Then she has one that 'she will love', but presumably not be able to marry. That really could be anyone, hell it could be Tyrion even, no one stands out as of yet.


message 6: by Jayme (new)

Jayme (jaymetheghostreader) | 1113 comments Tyrion is married to Sansa unless that marriage has been resolved. I haven't gotten through all of Feast yet.


message 7: by Will (new)

Will Reeves (shnargen) Hmmm... The prophesy was "one to bed, one to wed, and one to love." and unfortunately they all apply to drogo, but we can assume most likely that he was "one to wed". That means there are two more. I also am not sure if i even trust the prophesy, even though prophesies in books arte usually fulfilled, i can see GRRM making Dany disregard it. Also, I do think that Tyrion would be a potential cantidate, especially since *spoiler to Jayme* he left to the east, presumably to find Dany. I doubt they'll hit it off, but you never know.


message 8: by Will (new)

Will Reeves (shnargen) And, about that Dornish prince, I hate to spoil it for you if you haven't read FfC yet, but, yeah, that aint happening


message 9: by Allen, Warden of the Northwest (new)

Allen Allen (audiovore) | 71 comments Mod
I'm referring to Quentyn Martell, are you?


message 10: by Will (new)

Will Reeves (shnargen) Ah, see I really need to re-read these, cause I was thinking of Oberyn, and I forgot that he was Doran's brother, not his son. Now that that's out of the way, I would still prefer it to be Jon. Him being the son of Lyanna and Rheagar, then he would be her nephew and that wouldn't work. See, this is how I am when I speculate: I think of things that I want to happen, but then they conflict with each other. Actually, I still prefer Jon being Eddard's son, so if that were the case then it would be fine.


message 11: by Allen, Warden of the Northwest (new)

Allen Allen (audiovore) | 71 comments Mod
My ballpark guess will be Quentyn-Wed; Jon(or someone else)-Bed; Tyrion-Love.

The incest wouldn't be an issue as the Targaeryns do it regularly 'to keep the blood pure'.


message 12: by Will (new)

Will Reeves (shnargen) She already had her love in Drogo, if you hadn't noticed, so Quentin and Jon sounds great. Especially if Quentin becomes her King while Jon becomes her "concubine" hehe, therefore Wed and Bed. I like it. In any case, Jon is most likely still a bastard and can't be king, as much as i would like him to be.


message 13: by Clark (new)

Clark Coston (tesko) | 44 comments Anybody have any thoughts on candidates for the Prince Who Was Promised?


message 14: by Will (new)

Will Reeves (shnargen) I need to reread, I don't remember that prophesy.


message 15: by Clark (new)

Clark Coston (tesko) | 44 comments The prince that was promised/the prince who was promised is a prophecy that is mentioned when Dany goes through the House of the Undying in A Clash of Kings. Melisandre also mentions him in A Storm of Swords. She seems to think that the prince who was promised is the same as Azor Ahai reborn, but there isn't much information to support that. In fact, there isn't much information about the prince at all so far, so it is pure speculation.


message 16: by Jayme (new)

Jayme (jaymetheghostreader) | 1113 comments I don't remember the prophecy and I read them all but Feast of Crows.


message 17: by jD (new)

jD (jd_4everbooked) | 2 comments I recall the prophecy but after a few books, I thought Dany would end up dead and someone else would raise the dragons. Seriously, GRRM likes killing and misdirecting destiny.


message 18: by Will (new)

Will Reeves (shnargen) gosh if he killed Dany i would be so depressed. i don't doubt that he would do it if he had to, but she is the last of old valyria, so she must be important (unless, of course, jon is rheagar's)


message 19: by Jayme (new)

Jayme (jaymetheghostreader) | 1113 comments A coworker at work started reading Game of Thrones this week so I been getting a play by play. I am trying really hard not to give good parts away.


message 20: by Clark (last edited Oct 15, 2010 10:44PM) (new)

Clark Coston (tesko) | 44 comments jD wrote: "I recall the prophecy but after a few books, I thought Dany would end up dead and someone else would raise the dragons. Seriously, GRRM likes killing and misdirecting destiny."

I don't think it's likely that Dany would be killed, at least not any time soon. But then again, the next book is called A Dance With Dragons. The question is who would take over the care of the dragons. I think it would be foolish for GRRM to introduce a new lead POV so far into the series, but there are two main characters that are either (relatively) near Dany or on their way to be near her.

(I'll avoid spoilers here.) The first is in a dire situation and will need to deal with that, and we already know what happens to her during the time frame of AFFC and ADWD since they both take place concurrently. It's unlikely we'll hear much from her (if anything) in ADWD.

The second is making his way across the Narrow Sea after the events of ASOS, we didn't hear of him during AFFC, and GRRM has released a chapter from this character in which he relays his intention to team up with Dany. I've expected this the moment things started to go down with this character in ASOS. He would be a perfect fit to team up with Dany. Also, if Dany does die, we've known since AGOT that this character has a thing for dragons.

It's certainly possible for Dany to die. This is GRRM we are talking about. I just don't think it's likely. I think the second of the two characters I mentioned above is more likely to help Dany with her increasingly difficult-to-handle pets than he is to take over in her wake.


message 21: by Lani (new)

Lani (lanisison) | 6 comments I agree with those who said that Jon and Dany seem to be tied together in some way. Is he the "one to love" though, or is that already taken by Drogo? Jon can still be king if he really ends up the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar (I'm assuming the son of the heir would have a greater claim to the throne than the daughter of the king), but there needs to be a kind of recognition by Rhaegar of the child. Targaryens love intermarriage anyway.:P

This sounds stupid, but does anyone think Robb can still be revived? It may be the Stark fangirl in me who's hoping we haven't seen the end of him yet, but if Catelyn can make a somewhat-comeback, maybe Robb can too (like through the wolf dreams, or maybe I'm associating this way too much with Hopper and Perrin of WoT).

Also, just to clarify, Melisandre and the monk (can't remember his name) are serving the same god, right? What are your thoughts on what their ultimate goal is? I don't know if I've read too many novels where the gods get directly involved in the lives of humans, but is it possible for that to happen here? If not, do you think Melisandre is doing this for her god or does she have her own agenda (like being queen)? Seriously, that woman creeps me out.


message 22: by Jayme (new)

Jayme (jaymetheghostreader) | 1113 comments I say Melisandre has her own agenda and I never liked her since she was first introduced. I am also a Stark fangirl from the beginning. I am ecstatic that Catelyn is still alive one way or another.


message 23: by Will (new)

Will Reeves (shnargen) This is all in answer to Lani:

First of all, I think Jon+Dany would be an extremely powerful match if they were going for the throne, but the only way that could happen is if the Wall fell and the Black Brotherhood dissolved.

About Robb being revived, I think it would be possible, but unlikely. Robb served his purpose in my opinion, and what Catelyn has become is an abomination. One little discrepancy is that we only heard of Robb's death indirectly, and that the body that was seen was supposedly Robb's body with Grey Wind's head sown on, but there is a very slight possibility that he is alive. there is always that to hope for, because otherwise, if he was resurrected, it would be as a beheaded body.

About Thoros and Melisandre, they are both of the same religion, but they seem to be different aspects of it. While Thoros is helpful and friendly and mostly good (seeming), Melisandre forces her religion on others through Stannis' thirst for power. Melisandre might have her own agenda, but I think it seems like simple zealotry.


message 24: by Lia (new)

Lia (bastet) | 8 comments jon is definitely lyanna and rhaegar's; she died in childbirth (her bed of roses), she made ned promise not to tell anyone because she knew robert would kill him, and ned brought him home and raised him. but jon can't be king until l & r were actually officially married - i think polygamy is legal in one country... dorne? or unless dany legitimizes him.

the quote is actually: "three mounts must you ride... one to bed and one to dread and one to love."

i think drogo was the one to bed, because though dany loved him, it was kinda mostly focused a physical/sexual kind of love - they weren't reading poetry to each other or having existential conversations. dread will be euron greyjoy, who has the horn to control her dragons and will force her to marry him. one to love will be jon - of course they'll be together at the end (until one/both of them die(s)). he's the ice and she's the fire. they'll fall in love maybe after euron uses her dragons to try to take over westeros and the others/wall guardians fight them off...? there has to be a big ice/fire battle coming up. wights vs dragons!

i don't think dany will die, or if she does it will be at the very end of the series... same with jon, and probably the third dragonrider. any theories on who that is? i think tyrion (who may be half targ himself), or maybe bran with his dreams of flying... although he can enter animals' minds, so maybe he'll take over the dragons themselves during the battle? he could save the kingdom.

i think robb's purpose is served; he's dead, just like ned. however, the point about only *hearing* he's dead and only seeing his body with the wolf head on it was something i never realized before. maybe he was never actually killed. but he doesn't need to come back to lead armies. jon and dany can both do that already.

tyrion is totally going to find dany... what does she need to learn? "the game of thrones." and who better than tyrion to teach it to her?

i don't have any idea what arya will do... probably become an assassin, eventually come up against jon and be unable to kill him, then die heroically in some way?

sansa will kill littlefinger by pushing him out the moon door, marry the hound, and rule as the new mistress of winterfell.

:)


message 25: by Will (new)

Will Reeves (shnargen) yeah...about the hound and winterfell...you haven't read SoC yet have you?


message 26: by Will (new)

Will Reeves (shnargen) Also, now that i think about it, I seriously doubt Robb is still alive because that "death fakeout" trick already happened with Bran and Rickon, so he probably wouldn't do it again.

Does anyone think Brienne will survive, or is the hanging at the end of SoC the end for her?

And will Dany be successful with her new little kingdom? I almost feel like it is a "training" kingdom, just so she can get the hang of it.

and, in response to Lia, why do you predict that Euron Greyjoy will be the one to dread?


message 27: by Lia (new)

Lia (bastet) | 8 comments what do you mean by SoC? am i confused...? the hound is still alive though - you see him in AFFC.

i think brienne has to stay alive for a while - jaime saves her, maybe?

i predict euron greyjoy as the one to dread because he has the horn that will control her dragons, thus he will have power over her, and he's on his way to find her right now. he will force her to marry him so he can use her targ blood to legitimize his claim to the throne, and will use them (and her) to (try to) invade westeros. but the others/night watch/ice powers/horn of winter/etc will fight the dragons... not sure how that will go down or who will prevail but it should be epic!

that's what i think, anyway ;)


message 28: by Jason (new)

Jason (darkfiction) I thought Brienne's death was a little pointless. But then, GRRM was well known for killing off characters even before ASoIaF.


message 29: by Will (new)

Will Reeves (shnargen) Oh, sorry, "SoC" was me being tired. I meant Feast for Crows, and if you haven't finished it, then you will know soon about the Hound.

And I really hope your scenario with Euron Greyjoy doesn't happen, but I agree that it could. It just sounds very unpleasant, but totally possible.


message 30: by Allen, Warden of the Northwest (new)

Allen Allen (audiovore) | 71 comments Mod
Wait, didn't Asha take the horn I thought? Or is she just off to find Dany without it? She is suppose to show up as a PoV towards the end of ADWD...


message 31: by Miss Kate (new)

Miss Kate (misskatesays) | 46 comments We don't know that Brienne is really dead. GRRM has faked us out a couple of times! I think Victarion will be the one to dread. He's on his way to find Dany for his brother Euron, but wants her for himself.


message 32: by Jason (new)

Jason (darkfiction) I hope you're right about Brienne, Kate. I enjoyed her character and wanted to see more of the chemistry between her and Jaime. I also wanted to see where it would go.


message 33: by Adam (new)

Adam | 2 comments Will wrote: "Also, there needs to be people to ride Dany's dragons. one could be Jon, obviously one Dany, and there needs to be one more. Maybe she'll take a second husband."

I always thought bran would be one of the riders. He already has a saddle especially for him and this would allow him to be the fierce individual he wants to be.


message 34: by Will (new)

Will Reeves (shnargen) I think it is unlikely for Bran to be one of Dany's companions because it is already most likely that Jon will be, and I doubt that two Starks would be placed in the same position. I personally think that is is most likely that the two riders will be Tyrion, due to his fascination with dragons that we've been aware of since the first book, and Jon, because of Ice and Fire and all that. There is also the strong possibility that Jon is Rheagar's, making him part Targaryen, so Dany would want to use that to enforce her claim to the throne (if they ever learn of it.) Bran's role, I believe, will be to take control of the north from the ironlanders and raise winterfell and take his place as lord stark, of course after he finds whatever he is looking for in the north.


message 35: by Sammy (last edited Nov 08, 2010 02:43PM) (new)

Sammy (thecardigankid) Jason wrote, "I hope you're right about Brienne, Kate. I enjoyed her character and wanted to see more of the chemistry between her and Jaime. I also wanted to see where it would go. "

I doubt Brienne is dead either. I'm hoping that whatever word she shouted at the last minute is enough to save her, even if I don't think it will be enough to save poor Podrick Payne. Brienne's story in AFFC was very autumnal, and it had me suspecting she would die, but now - as one of few people who knows of Arya's survival, and as a redemptive figure in Jaime's life - I think she will live on.

However, I do think the bells have tolled for Robb Stark. He served his purpose and - after all - never even got a POV chapter. I just can't see what we'd get out of having him still be alive. There are still four legitimate Stark children, all in hiding, and that's probably enough! Also, it's interesting to ponder what it means now to be "heir to the North". I guess with the Lannister dynasty crumbling - and Maggy Frog's prophecy suggests that Tommen and Myrcella will be destroyed in the Kings Landing/Dorne war - there is a place for Sansa of Winterfell to make a play for the throne.

There's a really interesting theory over at Tower of the Hand. It posits that the Jeyne Westerling who we saw in AFFC wasn't really Jeyne, based on a different description of the girl. This could mean that Jeyne was pregnant with Robb's child after all, and is now in hiding.

Adam wrote, "I always thought bran would be one of the riders. He already has a saddle especially for him and this would allow him to be the fierce individual he wants to be."

What an interesting thought! Personally, although I know we all think of Jon as being the "Ice" part of the series' title, I wouldn't put it past GRRM to kill him off in Book 6. If Bran uncovers his own powers up there in the North, he could prove an equally worthy Stark for Dany's plans. (I don't see Dany dying before Book 7, but I really have no idea how a series like this will end)

Meanwhile, is it weird that the characters I want most to return are the wolves?


message 36: by Jax (new)

Jax (anti-cato) Reading this made me so excited to read the books. After the first book, i stopped trying to figure out prophecies, cuz i realized that there was no way I was going to be able to keep track, so thanks everyone for doing it for me. :)

I'm excited to see how Rickon turns out, seems like a bomb waiting to happen.


message 37: by Jax (new)

Jax (anti-cato) oh yeah, and i wanna see how all of Rob B's afterthoughts end up!


message 38: by Stephanie (new)

Stephanie | 129 comments Wow, these theories are so much fun! Makes me want to re-read them all sooner than planned, to ponder the possibilities brought up...


message 39: by Will (new)

Will Reeves (shnargen) I've been thinking the same thing, especially how I seem to keep forgetting important stuff...


message 40: by Richard (new)

Richard (arbyhome) | 4 comments I think Brienne's last minute word was "Arya", since she knows something about Arya that Catelyn doesn't know, and that's enough to save her life.


message 41: by jD (new)

jD (jd_4everbooked) | 2 comments Does Brienne know that Arya is alive? I don't remember.


message 42: by Jayme (new)

Jayme (jaymetheghostreader) | 1113 comments I think she hopes that.


message 43: by Mach (last edited Feb 11, 2011 07:47AM) (new)

Mach | 198 comments Richard wrote: "I think Brienne's last minute word was "Arya", since she knows something about Arya that Catelyn doesn't know, and that's enough to save her life."

What do you mean save her life? arya is not exactly in danger she is in training to become one of the Faceless Men.

I am still wondering about what happened to Jaqen H'gar he is one of the most exciting characters on the show. I am pretty sure we will se more of him in the next novels. I also think Arya will finish her training and start hunting down Lannisters.

Has everyone here read the excerpts of ADWD? i'ts not much but they are good.


message 44: by Miss Kate (new)

Miss Kate (misskatesays) | 46 comments Machavelli wrote: "Richard wrote: "I think Brienne's last minute word was "Arya", since she knows something about Arya that Catelyn doesn't know, and that's enough to save her life."

What do you mean save her life..."


Richard means to save Brienne's life. If Brienne lets Zombie Cat know that Arya is alive, she might not be killed. Although who knows? Zombie Cat isn't exactly human anymore.(And no one knows that Arya is training to be a FM. All Brienne knows is that Arya was with the Hound when he was injured. For all B knows, A could still be in Westeros.)


message 45: by Will (new)

Will Reeves (shnargen) Richard meant Brienne may be saying it to save her own life, not Arya's. With all of Martin's talk of "the Meereenese knot", I doubt that Arya will be leaving that side of the world very soon. The Faceless Men are most likely going to at least attempt to brainwash Arya so that she only does her duty to the assassins. Hopefully hiding Needle will help her keep her connection to her past, though.


message 46: by Mach (last edited Feb 11, 2011 07:57AM) (new)

Mach | 198 comments But Brienne is dead now. I actually liked Brienne, she was one of the few honorable characters in the series, too bad we won't see her no more. But maybe she will become a zombie too.


message 47: by Miss Kate (new)

Miss Kate (misskatesays) | 46 comments Machavelli wrote: "Kate wrote: "Machavelli wrote: "Richard wrote: "I think Brienne's last minute word was "Arya", since she knows something about Arya that Catelyn doesn't know, and that's enough to save her life."
..."

We don't know that Brienne is dead. We see her getting hanged, but then it cuts out. I've read enough GRRM to believe it ONLY when I see it!


message 48: by Will (new)

Will Reeves (shnargen) There is absolutely no confirmation of Brienne's death. With this series, you should never be so certain.
*SPOILER*
I had been absolutely certain that Bran and Rickon were dead, but I was wrong, so it's safe to be in doubt of Brienne's death, no matter how close she got to it.


message 49: by Mach (new)

Mach | 198 comments True true, It's not one hundred percent sure. I thought Theon was dead months after reading the last book until i read the ADWD preview about him online.


message 50: by Christy (new)

Christy | 57 comments Theon's not dead???


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