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How are you publishing?

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message 1: by Naomi (new)

Naomi Kramer (nomesque) | 34 comments Mod
This should be an interesting area to explore...

Do you publish through an Australian publisher? Overseas? Both?

Paper books, ebooks, both?

Big publisher, small publisher, DIY/indie?


message 2: by Murray (new)

Murray Gunn (murraygunn) | 14 comments I tried to get an agent locally for my book on Bhutanese culture (a travelogue like Almost French) but they couldn't see the market. In the end, I was approached by Blacksmith Books, an independent publisher based in Hong Kong. It's paperback only at this stage, but I hope to go electronic at some stage.


message 3: by Naomi (new)

Naomi Kramer (nomesque) | 34 comments Mod
Thanks Murray. Do you have the electronic rights, or will BB be e-publishing it too?


message 4: by Murray (new)

Murray Gunn (murraygunn) | 14 comments It's an interesting thread, Naomi, and I'm looking forward to reading what others are doing.

I wasn't really considering ebooks when I negotiated the contract. The publisher has serial rights, which I assume includes electronic versions. I'm comfortable with that for the first book, but may consider reserving those rights or going totally electronic for future books.


message 5: by Graham (new)

Graham Storrs (grahamstorrs) I've never managed to get an Aussie company to publish anything of mine. However, American and Brit publishers and mags seem to like me, so that's OK.

I only have one book out at the moment and it has 2 publishers - both small presses. A NY house has the ebook rights and a Danish company just acquired the audiobook and print rights. I expect to get a call from an Icelandic company any day now, wanting the film rights (joke, by the way!)


message 6: by Naomi (new)

Naomi Kramer (nomesque) | 34 comments Mod
LOL - you never know, Graham... ;-) So, are the print rights worldwide/all languages? (feel free to NOT answer questions where you'd prefer, folks)

I suppose I should weigh in here.

I have two 'books' out so far.

Both are well under 'novel' size - DEAD(ish), my first, is 10k words; Maisy May, my second, is 30k words. That's Reason No 1 that they're self-published.

I don't like fitting in a box, and that's Reason No 2 that I've self-published. I can't imagine DEAD(ish) - or the others coming in that series - being taken up by a publisher without a LOT of hype behind them. Large amounts of swearing, objectionable themes, determined Aussie spelling and slang, all sorts. And frankly - by that time I wouldn't NEED a publisher, would I? Maisy May is more mainstream, but at its size and with its subject matter and target audience, I strongly suspect it wouldn't be taken up unless I was already a popular author.

Reason No 3 I'm self-publishing - I couldn't be bothered with the bad side of traditional publishing.

And finally, Reason No 4 - I honestly think ebooks are going to get really big fairly soon, and I wanted in on the ground floor. Print is a secondary concern, in the long term. What I think matters is getting out books that older folk can read on their ebook readers and younger folk can read on their iphones. And when it comes to phone-reading, short IS good.

So there you are. My theory of self-epublishing, or indie authoring, whatever you want to call it. I don't think it's for everyone - editing is a (bleep), organising beta readers can feel like herding sheep, and as for formatting... eek!!! But I already do most of that in my day job, so it's not a huge problem for me.

Oh, one more thing that you might find interesting - as I find willing translators, my work's going into other languages. Greek first, perhaps Dutch following, and I'd love to find someone to translate into Chinese.


message 7: by Murray (new)

Murray Gunn (murraygunn) | 14 comments Good on you for going outside the box, Naomi. I also kept my book short, though not as short as yours. The standard for travel books seems to be 300 pages, but I find my interest wanes at about 250pages, so that was my target for Dragon Bones.

Then again, your short book concept isn't so new. The French and Japanese don't traditionally write such long books. Both cultures like books that fit into a pocket - probably about 20,000 words.


message 8: by Shayne (last edited Sep 13, 2010 09:16PM) (new)

Shayne | 8 comments Mine are self-pubbed (via Smashwords), too, and I'm concentrating on e-books. Unlike Naomi, mine tend to be long. :-) But for e-books, longer != more expensive to produce.

I've never tried the traditional route. I'm just not motivated to go through the exercise, especially as I'm fairly sure it would end in tears rejection anyway. I like writing; I like engaging with readers. I'm now making a modest amount of money out of my books, and that's actually a pleasant surprise rather than something that was part of the plan.


message 9: by Naomi (new)

Naomi Kramer (nomesque) | 34 comments Mod
I also kept my book short, though not as short as yours. The standard for travel books seems to be 300 pages, but I find my interest wanes at about 250pages, so that was my target for Dragon Bones."

*nods* Makes sense - aim at a market you know is there! :-) It's not out yet, is it? Have you had much pre-publishing interest from readers? Do you think it'll appeal more to people planning to go to Bhutan in the near future or the armchair travellers?

You're right, short books are far from being a new concept! :-) I guess they're just a lot more cost-efficient in electronic format.

Funnily enough, I don't tend to go for shorter fiction books, I like mine long and meaty. A lot of people DO like short ones, however - makes sense that the slower a person reads, the more likely they'll want a shorter book.


message 10: by Naomi (new)

Naomi Kramer (nomesque) | 34 comments Mod
Shayne wrote: "I'm now making a modest amount of money out of my books, and that's actually a pleasant surprise rather than something that was part of the plan."

Not at all a surprise to me. Well-written and exceptionally well-edited, from what I've seen so far. :-)


message 11: by Shayne (new)

Shayne | 8 comments Naomi wrote: "Shayne wrote: "I'm now making a modest amount of money out of my books, and that's actually a pleasant surprise rather than something that was part of the plan."

Not at all a surprise to me. Well-written and exceptionally well-edited, from what I've seen so far. :-)"


Thanks, Naomi! I'm now smiling foolishly :)


message 12: by Soma (new)

Soma Helmi (somahelmi) | 8 comments I've just published myself on e-book format. Went through Smashwords first then on Amazon. Publishing is the easy part, it's the marketing/promoting that's the slog.

Do you have any tips Naomi on getting the word out?


message 13: by Murray (new)

Murray Gunn (murraygunn) | 14 comments Naomi wrote: "*nods* Makes sense - aim at a market you know is there! :-) It's not out yet, is it? Have you had much pre-publishing interest from readers? Do you think it'll appeal more to people planning to go to Bhutan in the near future or the armchair travellers?"

No, it's not even going to be printed until 'before Christmas' and then released in US, then UK, then here etc starting from Feb next year. But it sold 80 copies on Amazon before I even knew that it was up there. I'm pretty happy about that.


message 14: by Naomi (new)

Naomi Kramer (nomesque) | 34 comments Mod
Soma wrote: "Do you have any tips Naomi on getting the word out?"

EEP - this is a hard one, and I'm nowhere near being an expert.

I put my first (10000 word) ebook out free of charge on as many quality sites and platforms as I could find. Feedbooks and Smashwords were the primary sites. I started a twitter account which advertised a range of free online fiction, including ebooks and webfiction. I joined MobileRead forums, put it in my signature, got chatting with people. Once it was available in Barnes and Noble, I mentioned it on NookBoards. But I suspect the two biggest factors in its favour have been a passing title-resemblance to Charlaine Harris books and a catchy description. *shrug* The first was accidental, the second was a hard slog.

The Amazon forums - in particular the Kindle forum - are fraught with grumpy people and lack of features, BUT if you go to http://www.amazon.com/tag/kindle/ref=... and look for a thread called 'Al's Place', you'll find some chatty people who'll buy and read almost anything if they like the author.


message 15: by Naomi (new)

Naomi Kramer (nomesque) | 34 comments Mod
Murray wrote: "But it sold 80 copies on Amazon before I even knew that it was up there. I'm pretty happy about that."

*blink* 80 copies pre-ordered already? No wonder you're happy!! :-)


message 16: by Soma (new)

Soma Helmi (somahelmi) | 8 comments The Amazon forums - in particular the Kindle forum - are fraught with grumpy people and lack of features, BUT if you go to http://www.amazon.com/tag/kindle/ref=tag...

Thanks for the link, any advice from people who've done it themselves is worth reading about. It's become a little bit of a hit and miss experiment. I'm just going to keep trying everything.

Good luck with your books :)


message 17: by Naomi (last edited Sep 12, 2010 10:30PM) (new)

Naomi Kramer (nomesque) | 34 comments Mod
Thanks Soma, you too. :-)

I suspect that sometimes indie authors worry TOO much about promotion. Our attraction, ideally, is a good product at a great price, without the cookie-cutter feel that some publishers manage to put on their ranges. If a few people read a book and enjoy it enough to recommend it, the readership will increase. The primary point of promotion is to give those few people a reason to read it in the first place.

Edited to add: I'm sounding like a fortune cookie now.


message 18: by Paul (new)

Paul Daniels (mrpld) | 25 comments Hi everyone, I'm not actually an -author- but my wife (Elita F. Daniels - "Tree of Life Part I") is. My role is in the publishing and marketing of here book, so you can consider us as a husband-wife publishing group.

We're doing our printing via Lightning Source Int, taking advantage of their Ingram distribution network which gets the book out to most online stores, including Amazon and B&N without any footwork on our side.

Recently we took the dive and produced an eBook version which has been taken up well (about 100 copies in the last two weeks). At least the nice thing with eBooks is that they're easy to give away for free since you don't have any capital outlay, unlike the printed books which cost quite a bit after you've paid for shipping.

Our local bookstore is doing well with selling copies, as we have a lot of tourists traveling through and the bookstore owner knows us and subsequently promotes the book.

The other big piece in the puzzle is our online presence, I personally put quite a bit of effort into generating a couple of websites (one for the book, one for Elita as a novelist), we also produced several media items such as a video trailer, audio reading of a chapter, bookmarks and posters. Now the most time consuming part is just constantly going through the internet and promoting the book [appropriately] where ever possible.

Regards,
Paul.
( http://elitadaniels.com )Tree of Life


message 19: by Mark (new)

Mark (valiukas) | 8 comments Hi Everybody,

I'd like to echo a few of Paul's thoughts, and put a different spin on a few others. Paul and I have corresponded elsewhere recently, and you might say that in some ways our paths are scarily parallel.

I do the technical and marketing work for Joanne Valiukas (Danann Frost Falls from Grace).

We initially went with Createspace, and for print-on-demand editions I have to admit we're likely to stick with them. They get us into Ingram, which will do just about everything LSI would that's important to us. The only thing they can't do for us is offer a returnable option to booksellers, but that would be a bit of a gamble. I think the pricing out of Createspace is a little better in our particular case too, which makes it easier to compete price-wise with similarly sized books. With print-on-demand you're always up against the fact that it costs you more to produce the book than it costs someone doing 5000 offset copies, and pricing can be a very sensitive point if you're a relative unknown looking to sell on-line.

We're on the verge of releasing ebook versions; it should be in the Kindle and Kobo listings in a week or two at the latest, and we're pursuing other options to get into the Sony and Apple stores. Just proofing the conversion...again.

One of the problems with having a POD supply chain starting on the other side of the world is delivery times and freight costs; this can make it extremely difficult to do local promotional events. To get around this we did a short print run through Griffin and it's been been selling well at events and signings, by word-of-mouth and through some indie bookstore placements.

Marketing and creating an on-line buzz is always tricky. Credibility is everything, and there are too many examples of people who have completely blown theirs through inappropriate behavior. We've managed to get Joanne an active following on Facebook and are slowly expanding from there, but we're trying to tread lightly because a lot of people put a lot of effort into building their communities... the last thing they want is unruly guests who do nothing but say "Look at me! Look at me!". Joanne's website has been helpful, and her blog will eventually become part of a semi-automated approach to getting info into a number of different social media sites but it's still very much a work in progress.

Bookmarks? I don't think they're much good at driving sales directly, at least not for us so far, but they're handy things to include in mailouts and to give away as freebies at signings. Trailers are a mixed bag, in more ways than one. If done well they're fantastic. If done poorly... I'm sure we can all name a few truly laughable ones. I'm working on one, but it's tough for a semi-amateur to come up with something that doesn't make the viewer's eyes bleed.


Regards,

Mark.


message 20: by Murray (new)

Murray Gunn (murraygunn) | 14 comments Mark, I'm interested in how you got an active following on facebook. I had a peek and got some ideas, but what do you think worked? I've created a reader page (can't bring myself to call it a fan page) but haven't really done much with it.


message 21: by Soma (new)

Soma Helmi (somahelmi) | 8 comments Great posts Mark and Paul. I'm also interested how you got the active following on Facebook?

I've just registered my domain name so will be setting up a website asap, although it's been years since I've been in the web business so I'm a bit rusty. I'm thinking using Wordpress template is probably easiest nowadays?

I made a video trailer for Sammi Ever After and posted it on YouTube , although I'm not too sure how it's going to drive traffic for my sales? Is there a good site to post these on? I have it on my Amazon profile, smashwords and a couple of forums but I can still hear the *crickets*.


message 22: by Mark (new)

Mark (valiukas) | 8 comments Murray wrote: "Mark, I'm interested in how you got an active following on facebook. I had a peek and got some ideas, but what do you think worked? I've created a reader page (can't bring myself to call it a fan..."

Facebook call it a fan page; that's their term for that type of page, so I'm happy to run with it. But yes, it did feel a little pretentious until we had at least a few people we'd never met there.

We've had a few growth spikes over its life.

The first came when Google offered us a stack of free Adwords advertising - some carefully crafted advertising, targetting the audience for the book, offering the first quarter as a free PDF download, got people to the website and from there to Facebook. That was great for bootstrapping it, and when you're not paying for the advertising you can afford to ramp up the intensity to see what works.

There have been a number of other smaller spikes as those readers have told their friends about it, and from some Facebook advertising. Being able to target friends-of-fans is nice.

More recently, we've seen significant growth through identifiable friendship networks off the back of the author events and the direct book sales from those.

I'd be interested to see how well all this applies to non-fiction.


message 23: by Paul (new)

Paul Daniels (mrpld) | 25 comments Persistence, money. . . and a hook. The trouble now is that with POD services, eBooks and cheap WWW sites, the entry "fee" into marketing here is quite low, so we are now swimming amongst millions of other people in the same situation.

I'd dare say even with a reasonable marketing team you'll still only raise up a few levels. To make it internationally you're going to need an extraordinary hook - even getting an Oprah bookclub listing probably isn't enough to raise you up to J.K.R. or Twilight levels.

Most of us are at the point where we are having to literally give away our books initially to build up a following outside of our circle of friends/family/associates.

All I can really say is - keep pushing.


message 24: by Paul (new)

Paul Daniels (mrpld) | 25 comments Just a small warning - one thing we've found with Facebook is that it can be really hard to keep in touch with your fans unless they actively visit your page. Facebook has culled all the mass contact facilities that they used to have - at best right now we're limited to notifying 20 people at a time (out of about 460 now).

(To facebook) What's the point of fans signing up to a fan page if you can't even keep them informed?


message 25: by Soma (new)

Soma Helmi (somahelmi) | 8 comments Paul wrote: "Just a small warning - one thing we've found with Facebook is that it can be really hard to keep in touch with your fans unless they actively visit your page. Facebook has culled all the mass cont..."

But you can send an 'update' to all of your "fans" with the edit button no? I've done that and it hasn't limited the number. Or at least it hasn't said so.


message 26: by Paul (new)

Paul Daniels (mrpld) | 25 comments You can send some updates, yes but chances are you fans will never see them because they get placed into a sub-folder under their messages and they aren't notified about the arrival via email. After we discovered this we ourselves noticed that we actually had quite a few 'notifications' from fan pages that we'd never seen or knew about in our inbox.


message 27: by Mark (new)

Mark (valiukas) | 8 comments But then, sending e-mail directly is fraught with danger. The Spam Act (2003) here in Oz, CAN-Spam in the US, Privacy laws, it's a minefield... plus there's the fact that people may well want to compartmentalise their lives and NOT want everything in their mailbox.

All the updates Aussiecon4 sent out to me landed in with the other Facebook updates on there and were e-mailed out to me too, so I suspect it's more a matter of how a particular user chooses to be notified (or not...). Raw fan numbers won't do much good if they're actively choosing not to see updates and notifications. The old-style insights page will tell you how many people are hiding it from their news feed, but won't say anything about other ways of hiding or ignoring you... still, that's something.


message 28: by Murray (new)

Murray Gunn (murraygunn) | 14 comments Mark wrote: "Murray wrote: "Mark, I'm interested in how you got an active following on facebook. I had a peek and got some ideas, but what do you think worked? I've created a reader page (can't bring myself t..."

A specific question for you, Mark. How do you get your links to show up with the page as contributor? That happened naturally for me at first, but now when I try to add a link it shows the photo and link for my personal facebook profile rather than the page profile. I really want to keep the two separate.


message 29: by Mark (new)

Mark (valiukas) | 8 comments Murray wrote: "How do you get your links to show up with the page as contributor?"

I add them through the page; it "just happens". Sorry, can't tell you much more than that I'm afraid. If you've got a particular process you use that's causing you grief I'd be happy to try to replicate the issue (that's my "Helldesk" persona shining through).


message 30: by Murray (new)

Murray Gunn (murraygunn) | 14 comments Mark wrote: "Murray wrote: "How do you get your links to show up with the page as contributor?"

I add them through the page; it "just happens". Sorry, can't tell you much more than that I'm afraid. If you've g..."


OK. Using my own helpdesk persona, I'm going to close my browser and try again...


message 31: by Paul (new)

Paul Daniels (mrpld) | 25 comments Make sure you turn off everything and pull the plug from the wall, then wait 60 seconds before trying again.


message 32: by Murray (new)

Murray Gunn (murraygunn) | 14 comments No luck. Here's what I do.

- Open Facebook
- Search 'Murray Gunn' and select the page
- Click 'See all' on the links section in the left pane
- Paste my link into 'Post a link' at the right and click 'Post'
- The preview page shows my personal image rather than the page image


message 33: by Murray (new)

Murray Gunn (murraygunn) | 14 comments I think I worked it out. If you add a link in the Links tab, it uses your personal profile, but if you include a link in an Update, that link is added to links with your page profile. Claro!


message 34: by Mark (last edited Sep 14, 2010 08:13PM) (new)

Mark (valiukas) | 8 comments Murray wrote: "No luck. Here's what I do.

"


Okay... got it. Issue replicated.

"It's not a bug, it's a feature". It allows others to post links and be identified as the poster.

Work-around:
Post it through your wall. That'll display it the way you want it to appear.

Up-side:
It'll send an update to people who like the page.

Down-side:
It'll send an update to people who like the page.

If "likers" think you're spamming out updates, they'll unlike your page or hide it from their feed. So, we only add links when we think it's something that's likely to interest a sizeable number of fans or that is core to our message.

Oh, and Paul, you forgot to say "...and use Internet Explorer 6" :-)

Edit: speeling. And layout stupidity.


message 35: by Paul (new)

Paul Daniels (mrpld) | 25 comments Oh, and Paul, you forgot to say "...and use Internet Explorer 6" :-)

Oh lordy - I almost lost my coffee - thanks!


message 36: by Mozette (new)

Mozette | 3 comments I use blogger to put out my books as I can't afford to publish my own books yet. However, I'm find it fun to put them out and get some feedback.

Warning: these are normally 18+ sites, but I've bypassed the consent form for you guys. Just letting you know.

One is a sci-fi action called 'Fry Nelson'
http://bountyhunterbrisbane.blogspot....

The other is a whole lot of vampire stories and weird short stories I have written because they have nowhere else to go called 'You Can't Go Back: and other impossibilities'
http://youcantgoback-andotherimpossib...


message 37: by Naomi (new)

Naomi Kramer (nomesque) | 34 comments Mod
Mozette, are you considering going into ebooks sometime soon? Smashwords is worth checking out.


message 38: by Paul (new)

Paul Daniels (mrpld) | 25 comments If anyone wants, I can provide a terse guide on setting up your own set of pages for selling your eBook via your own site + PayPal with PHP. Of course, as many authors know the real issue is more about exposure and marketing... collecting money is just the nice end-game.

Paul.


message 39: by Naomi (new)

Naomi Kramer (nomesque) | 34 comments Mod
Paul wrote: "If anyone wants, I can provide a terse guide on setting up your own set of pages for selling your eBook via your own site + PayPal with PHP. "

I'd certainly appreciate it! :-)


message 40: by Paul (new)

Paul Daniels (mrpld) | 25 comments okay... give me an hour or three to actually make the PHP files look decent and can be understood.


message 41: by Naomi (new)

Naomi Kramer (nomesque) | 34 comments Mod
Paul wrote: "okay... give me an hour or three to actually make the PHP files look decent and can be understood."

Thanks! I have SOME web knowledge, but just bits and pieces here and there, picked up at random. It's rather frustrating at times.


message 42: by Paul (last edited Sep 19, 2010 09:58PM) (new)

Paul Daniels (mrpld) | 25 comments Alright, I've uploaded my couple of PHP files to http://pldaniels.com/downloads/itemsa...

For this to work you have to create a buy-now button via PayPal which will call the ipn.php script on your server. This 'ipn.php' file is the key to ensuring that you are getting legit sales - not well crafted forgeries.

What happens is that when PayPal processes the buy-now, it will call this 'ipn.php' file as a separate transaction (after the customer has agreed to purchase), the ipn.php file then sends a request to PayPal validating the request (lots of back/forth stuff but it's done to ensure things are 'correct'). Meanwhile your customer has come back to the 'receipt' page.

I might have to setup another thread for all this :)

I should point out, it helps a LOT if you already know some PHP and have access to your WWW server of course.

This is NOT a plug-and-play quick-fix thing, it does require some tinkering but it solves the niggly bit of handling the whole back-channel verification chat to PayPal for you.


Paul.


message 43: by Mozette (new)

Mozette | 3 comments Naomi wrote: "Mozette, are you considering going into ebooks sometime soon? Smashwords is worth checking out."

I'm not really into e-books. I don't read them, so I don't see why I should publish them. I know a blog is a little like an e-book, but still I like to have a solid book in my hands; I don't even want a Kindle.


message 44: by Naomi (new)

Naomi Kramer (nomesque) | 34 comments Mod
Paul wrote: "Alright, I've uploaded my couple of PHP files to http://pldaniels.com/downloads/itemsa..."
Thanks Paul! I'll take a look at it when I'm not suffering from brain melt.


message 45: by Naomi (last edited Sep 19, 2010 10:13PM) (new)

Naomi Kramer (nomesque) | 34 comments Mod
Mozette wrote: "I'm not really into e-books. I don't read them, so I don't see why I should publish them. I know a blog is a little like an e-book, but still I like to have a solid book in my hands; I don't even want a Kindle. "

*nod* Fair enough. Only two reasons I can think of - to gain readership amongst people who do read ebooks, and to be self-published without the required financial outlay of paper-publishing. But it depends on our motivations for putting our work out there. :-)


message 46: by Mozette (new)

Mozette | 3 comments Naomi wrote: "Mozette wrote: "I'm not really into e-books. I don't read them, so I don't see why I should publish them. I know a blog is a little like an e-book, but still I like to have a solid book in my hands..."

I mainly write to entertain... and one day hopefully to be published. I did try once to get published, but the financial outlay, finding an agent I actually got along with and applying for grants was all too stressful. I almost lost the reason of why I was doing it. Until one day I just sat down and wrote for three months and remembered that I loved writing for the sheer joy of entertaining people and my own mind. So, thus the blogs...


message 47: by Paul (new)

Paul Daniels (mrpld) | 25 comments Mozette wrote: I did try once to get published, but the financial outlay, finding an agent I actually got along with and applying for grants was all too stressful. I almost lost the reason of why I was doing it.

I find this is a very true-to-heart statement. I know when myself and Elita were going through the process of getting her book printed, all the chaos that wasn't generated from creating the book just sapped away her desire to write, many times I swear she was close to the point of just throwing it all in.

Fortunately next time we'll handle it a lot better because we've been through it before and I will be managing it so that she doesn't have to be involved (other than saying "Sweetie, go publish this to the world for me - ta!" :) ).

Paul.


message 48: by Naomi (new)

Naomi Kramer (nomesque) | 34 comments Mod
Mozette - makes sense. :-)

Paul - some days I'd LOVE to do something similar, just hand a book off to someone else for 'the other stuff'. But I'm a control freak.


message 49: by Murray (new)

Murray Gunn (murraygunn) | 14 comments Paul wrote: "Alright, I've uploaded my couple of PHP files to http://pldaniels.com/downloads/itemsa...

For this to work you have to create a buy-now button via PayPal which will call the ipn.php script on y..."


Thanks Paul. I'm also interested in this, though I don't see myself selling directly from my site in the near future.

I spent much of the weekend working on my website, but when things started taking shape, I looked back at yours and threw it all in. You've done some great work.

I have the coding skills, but not the eye for design. It doesn't help that I don't even know what my cover is going to be yet.


message 50: by Paul (new)

Paul Daniels (mrpld) | 25 comments Naomi - I think it's a bit easier in this situation as Elita is of course my wife... so it's very easy for her to beat me senseless if I do it wrong ;) Fortunately for us I already have a long history with these sorts of things so I guess she has 'implied faith' in my work :cough:

Murry - Personally I wouldn't consider my artwork 'top grade', not by a long shot, though I do admit I consider it to be 'acceptable with a hint of a bit more'. Most of the time I go for minimalistic approaches and add small flourishes as they come to mind. For a good laugh, you should have a look at the development history of my other main shop site at http://nqrc.com ( http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://n... )


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