Religion just fucks things up (or does it?!!) > read and decide > the very interesting discussion :)

[Cambridge]

BunWat . . . that was my point exactly in my first comment in this thread further back. I am COMPLETELY open to all of those with or without religion and sprituality those with and without any kind of afterlife. The above about comment about the pearly gates was strictly a tease just to Mr. Grande (and I was really, really teasing in sincere lighthearted jest to continue the move to a jovial mood)

[[deleted user]]

I was hoping to wear stilletos to the pearly gates, and while he is looking at my amazing calves, I will walk through the gates.

[Cambridge]

Jim I will need to see your calves to assess that stilletos are appropriate for YOU ;) . . . my guess is you're in!

[[deleted user]]

:)

[Kevin]

here is a bible verse that i have taped to my wall in front of my desk. it is from a version/translation called the message which tries to put the bible in very readable, relevant language. not throwing this out there for debate or conflict, just thought this may let you know a bit more about how i really feel and how i try to be

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?...

[Cambridge]

BunWat that is totally cool. I was just responding as you were addressing me personally as if I was clumping all Christianity and the concept of Heaven/Hell into one vision. Really it was a direct dialogue between Mr. Grande and myself as he presented a Bible verse and I asked him a question about it, hoping he could help me see his view more clearly.

Your expanded information and thoughts regarding many other religions and ideals are exactly what I was trying to portray in my original comments in the thoughtful and insightful portions of this thread. All of which I hope we continue to mix with fun and smart dialogue

[Kevin]

(hope i didn't kill this thread)

[Félix]

*sound of crickets*

[Paul]

Kevin "El Liso Grande" wrote: "(hope i didn't kill this thread)"

there was a stampede toward the cheese...

[Cynthia]

Goodnight, John boy.

[Phil]

When will an atheist be elected to the U.S. Senate or the presidency?

I put their chances at, "they haven't got a prayer."

[Félix]

Excellent, Bun. It's all about context.

[Phil]

You're talking about Pete Stark? How many years after his election did he "come out" as atheist? It appears it only took 33 years for that information to be public. Too, he calls himself "nontheist" rather than "atheist." I'm not sure I get the distinction, but there it is.

[RandomAnthony]

I would be remiss if I didn't mention the Christian Universalists. The Universalist Christians are/were into this:

Christian Universalism is a set of theological beliefs about God, Christ, and the origin and destiny of the human soul, emphasizing the unconditional parental Love of God and God's plan to redeem, restore, and transform all people through Christ. This spiritual belief system has existed in various forms at various times during the past 2000 years.

Christian Universalists claim that their beliefs were the most common interpretation of Christianity in Early Christianity, prior to the 6th century.[1:] Today it is regarded as a heterodox view of the Gospel by most Christian denominations.[citation needed:] However, a substantial minority of Christians from a diversity of denominations and traditions appear to believe in the tenets of this belief system, such as the reality of an afterlife without the existence of a hell.[2:]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christia...

[RandomAnthony]

I'm also leery of my inability to read ancient Greek and Hebrew in light of the Bible. I hear too many weird translation issues emerge, and I don't know if I can trust the translation I'm reading. That said, I like King James best.

[Cambridge]

Oh yes! It most certainly is about context and broad general interpretation, my opinion not micro-dissecting (is that a word) ;) literal word for word verses and trying to implement them.

I want to take a varied religions of the world class from BunWat. . . religions are beautiful and fascinating!

[Jonathan]

Kevin "El Liso Grande" wrote: "(hope i didn't kill this thread)"

You didn't kill anything, Kevin. Those were great posts. I liked them and followed the links too.

I'm on deadline today and tomorrow, so can't contribute too much here--but I'm reading along...

[Lobstergirl, el principe]

BunWat wrote: "Sometimes "I don't know," is the only honest answer. I don't share your particular faith Kevin, but I appreciate you being willing to say I don't know, instead of trying to cobble together a justification to paper over what is quite obviously a thorny problem..."

Often "I don't know" is the best answer, and certainly the most virtuous answer to a secular person, but that shouldn't prevent people from still trying to find the answer(s). Attempts to find words to explain the mysteries of religious belief should be encouraged, I think. Even though the words we come up with might be inadequate, we still ought to try. Maybe it's like an asymptote in geometry - we can get closer and closer to the truth but never actually know it.

[Carol]

Can anyone speak about Unitarian Universalist practices? I'm interested in what I've read, but the nearest gathering is a long distance from my house.

[[deleted user]]

If I were to choose an organised religion, Unitarianism Universalism seems to me to be a good option. On paper it suits my personal principles and beliefs. I like the sound of it.

But I really like to keep my views private, I don't feel the need to share it with others so I don't get involved in organised religious groups.

[Lobstergirl, el principe]

I have a friend who created her own religion. It's been awhile since we talked about it....I'll have to quiz her.

[Carol]

Festivus? She might want to get a patent/copyright

[Lobstergirl, el principe]

Not Festivus. Wait, can you patent a religion?

[Kevin]

excellent points and thoughts bun. the only issue i really can see at this moment is that in this line of thinking you are assuming when thomas said "we" that he was talking about the twelve and not "we" as people in entirety.

Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"

so i am not sure i am taking it out of context, but taking it more broadly than you do. there are other verses such as john 10:9 which say "i am the gate (door) if anyone enters by me they will be saved..." which to me indicates that He is the way. in looking at that now i see how someone might say "it doesn't say He is the only way" and to that i have no good response. i am not really a bible scholar by any stretch. like i have said before, i try to be an example of living in a way that people would want to learn more about what i believe in and not rely on me and my feeble theological knowledge to convince them.

i really appreciate this smart and pointed conversation because it helps me know what i don't know

[Kevin]

just a clip of the kind of church i go to. the band (and my son) played Frankenstein for prelude/pre-service music. ha! this ain't your aunt's church


http://www.youtube.com/user/oakbrookc...

mostly wanted sarah pi to see this because of the stage design and music

[Cynthia]

Very nice, Kevin! That sax player is good, as is your son!

[RandomAnthony]

Carol wrote: "Can anyone speak about Unitarian Universalist practices? I'm interested in what I've read, but the nearest gathering is a long distance from my house."

Oh, crap, sorry, I didn't see this, Carol. Yes, I was a member of a UU congregation for about five years. Yes, Buns is right, UU in theory, esp., is open, tolerant, etc. Like Gail said, it's good on paper, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear of many high-functioning, well-organized congregations.

Mine was not one of them. The congregation was facing the classic "old people vs. new people" war, and ran into serious money problems, and honestly, I felt sometimes they were more self-congratulatory (aren't we so open and accepting?) than anything. But other people loved it there. Just not for me. Also, my kids hated it.

[Jonathan]

Kevin "El Liso Grande" wrote: "just a clip of the kind of church i go to..."

Very cool, Kevin. Do all of the musicians go to your church? They're good!

[ms.petra]

nice!

[Kevin]

jonathan - yes, all of these musicians attend there as well as the lighting, sound and stage guys. there is a second set of musicians that also play every other sunday. a very talented bunch. they play fun stuff like this when people are just getting there as a prelude type of deal. people now arrive early to hear the weekly jam. it is fun because it gives talented music people a place to use their skills in a practical way. the drummer is one of the pastors there.

just thought i'd share maybe a diff kind of church than some of you attend or attended

[RandomAnthony]

Is believing in God evolutionary advantageous?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/st...

I KNEW you atheists were lower life forms!

:)

[Heidi]

I was raised as a Catholic and was a long-standing active member of one of the local Methodist churches. I've frequented both the UU church and the Unity church here. While I mostly enjoyed the churches, the services, most of the people, and even the property... I gotta admit - I was feeling a bit out of place in that I didn't think discussions after the service that would center around aliens were very appealing (and would pull me out of my reverence). I also didn't know if I liked or disliked that most of the people who attended the services regularly were all old enough to be my parents. They were all kind and welcoming and not pushing their agendas onto me (v. appealing). I just preferred to slink off on my own to the Luby's buffet for a corn pone and sliced roast beef immediately after the services. Ultimately, sleeping in one day a week won out for me... that and not going to the same service as my boss.

[Cosmic Sher]

I've attended UU twice, once in Portland and once near Seattle (Federal Way - yes, there is one in the backwoods up yonder).

In Portland, I went with friends of mine who had been going for about a year. I really enjoyed the service and loved the woman preacher who quoted the Bible, Gandhi, and the Beatles in the same sermon. My friends finally stopped attending because they felt pressured to join (as in financially support) and take up with their many political causes. That disappointed me because it was held in one of the oldest stone churches in Portland and it felt so nice being in there.

The one in Federal Way I attended a Goddesses of the World class which I enjoyed, and the people were absolutely open & friendly, but I felt like the community was just a step away from not-so-former hippies and pagans who were meeting in an old-style format church. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that, but it was just a little too "down-homey" for what I was searching for. I've done my stint with the pagans and as fun as they can be (whooo-baby!) it's not my scene.

I find it so interesting that the same church could have such a difference in congregation & attitude in two locations. Ultimately, I've decided that I'm more eclectic than any one church can offer and I hold my own services in my backyard under the moon. I miss the community, but I love the freedom of exploring what I believe without constraints.

[Phil]

RandomAnthony wrote: "Is believing in God evolutionary advantageous?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/st...

I KNEW you atheists were lower life forms!

:)"

Your interpretation of that article is backwards. According to the guy they're profiling, believers are "good" only because they think someone is watching what they do. Atheists, however, do good because it's the right thing to do.

Which sounds more evolved to you?

That article was so stupid that it doesn't really matter how you interpret it. Here's a guy who missed his mom, heard a chime, and somehow interpreted that to be a sign from a dead woman. Yeah, whatever. Then he had the chutzpah to say,

Everybody experiences the illusion that God — or some type of supernatural agent — is watching them or is concerned about what they do in their sort of private everyday moral lives."

Complete bullshit. Now he speaks for "everybody?" That's not science, that's absurd.

[Cynthia]

There are times when only a church community will do for me. One of these times is the funeral service. One of the best funerals I've ever been involved with was an outdoor, Unitarian service.

My brother lost two of his best friends at age 20, they were driving drunk. He had come very close to climbing in the car with them, but rode with his girlfriend at the last minute. These boys both died in a crash two blocks from the bar where they had drank lots of beer, underage.

At the service, the UU minister did an amazing thing. She spoke directly to the teens and twenty-somethings and tried to answer their questions and fears. She kind of looked past the older ones in the crown, she know who she was there to comfort first and foremost, those who had lost a peer.

[Paul]

RandomAnthony wrote: "Is believing in God evolutionary advantageous?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/st...

I KNEW you atheists were lower life forms!

:)"

an interesting parallel in evolutionary behaviour.

for the vast majority of human history we lived on the verge of starvation, so learnt to survive by gorging on high calorie foods whenever they were available and storing the fat for lean times. this allowed humanity to survive into a time where many of us live in societies of plenty, even of excess, but we find it hard to lose the behaviour of gorging, hence the obesity epidemic in the developed world.

for the vast majority of human history we have lived in ignorance so had to make up stories to explain everything from why babies are born, to why the stars shine unchangingly but the moon does not, to why the seasons roll, to why we die. these stories have helped us live into an age where we can answer many questions, but still many of us find it hard to give up this ingrained, evolved behaviour.

[Cosmic Sher]

So, does that mean that having a spiritual experience, sensing something that is unseen, or feeling that you are connected to something larger is all illusion? I beg to differ on that.

I know it's not always a popular stance to take in the logical, rational world but aren't we evolved enough to actually take a real look at why humans have a history of supernatural belief? More than just 'made up stories to explain everything', spirituality quite possibly has farther reaching effects than we've assumed. Over our modern history, since the split between science & spirituality, the scholars have poo-pooed any serious study of it, leaving it to hacks & religious historians.

There is much more true scientific research being done today on paranormal/spiritual experience and many of those who seriously study it are finding that it is not only a scientific fact, but quite possibly an evolutionary survival mechanism. Check out the Institute of Noetic Science www.ions.org or books such as The Science of Premonitions. Even our understanding of physics is deeping with questions that are remarkably spiritual in nature. Conversations about spirituality are occuring with scientists and scholars that show a very mystical relationship with the universe. Einstein's God: Conversations About Science and the Human Spirit With new technology, this field of study is being opened up in ways we never dreamed and lending a validity to the spiritual realm as a real alternate reality.

[Phil]

Cosmic Sher wrote: "So, does that mean that having a spiritual experience, sensing something that is unseen, or feeling that you are connected to something larger is all illusion?"

No. It means we're still emotional beings. Nothing wrong with that. The problem arises when someone claims that those feelings come from an invisible man who will smite you if you don't do as they say.

[Jonathan]

That NPR article struck me as pretty lame. The scientist it describes is positing that there is some evolutionary advantage to faith, but without isolating a "faith" gene, all he has to go on are a bunch of thought-experiments, none of which seems terribly impressive.

Likewise, a belief in the supernatural, which is what the story ultimately seems to be about, encompasses a great many more forms of belief than just religion: UFOs, ghosts, rooting for the Cubs, etc. Is there an evolutionary advantage to those things too?

Anyway, a shallow article IMHO.

[Paul]

Cosmic Sher wrote: "So, does that mean that having a spiritual experience, sensing something that is unseen, or feeling that you are connected to something larger is all illusion? I beg to differ on that.

I know i..."

The feelings and emotions may well be real, but the 'supernatural' aspect of any 'spirituality' is absolutely, 100% imaginary. Supernatural is a nonsense - there is nothing beyond or above the natural, physical world. Yes, i am completely a materialist, in the philosophical sense.

To speculate that there are some things beyond our ability to perceive and understand is perfectly reasonable - from the germ theory of disease to the expansion of the universe and sub-atomic particles, there have been many things that the unaided human eye could not see - but to state that there are things that by their very nature are unknowable because they are outside the laws that govern the rest of the universe (which, unless i am very much mistaken, is what belief in both the supernatural and theist belief are saying) is something that cannot be argued using the logic and reason.

I never understood the Romantics' argument that science destroyed the beauty of the natural world. When i look at a rainbow or a flower, a tiger or a sunset, the sweep of the Milky Way or the structure of an atom, I am filled with a sense of awe that some may call spiritual, but I am perfectly happy that all these things are the product of blind natural forces.

I don't think anyone has ever expressed that wonder as well as the great Carl Sagan. I highly recommend EVERYONE should read The Demon Haunted World. and in the meantime listen to Tim Minchin's 'Storm'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0W7Jb...

[Jackie "the Librarian"]

I second the Carl Sagan recommendation, Paul.
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark is one of my favorite books ever.

[Jackie "the Librarian"]

I was lucky to have read it before I found Goodreads, Bun. :)

[RandomAnthony]

Stephen Hawking has created a tizzy by saying the universe didn't require a creator...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001...

[Phil]

I saw that in the paper yesterday. Go Hawk!

[Paul]

Everyone acting like it's some big deal. "Physicist states no magic involved in creation of the universe."