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Are espionage novels 'female friendly'?
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AWomanReading
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Aug 20, 2010 02:14AM
I just wrote a post on my blog about espionage novels and how they really are female friendly and compared and contrasted them to romantic suspense. Do you think there is a huge market for espionage novels in women readers? I am a huge fan of Ludlum, Flynn and Thor but none of my female friends read them, but they will watch James Bond or the Jason Bourne series which amounts to the same thing. http://wp.me/s11xqU-172
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It's an interesting question. James Bond is in a class of his own. The genuine Ian Fleming stories are a superb mix of fantasy that has nothing to do with the intelligence world and superb Cameo's that were only possible through Fleming's career in intelligence during WW2. The Bond women are unfailingly beautiful and there are the sexy bits, so Bond is in some ways a passion story wrapped up in an exotic and exciting backdrop.Le Carre goes to the other extreme. His world is much closer to reality but is drab, which is the price of reality. Other writers have moved away from the gritty reality of Le Carre towards the action packed toys for boys approach but not the fantasy world of Bond.
To say the 'woman reader' is too great a simplification, as tastes differ, but what do women readers think of Le Carre?
Bond is more exciting and glamorous, but less real. The Bond heroines are sexy and except for their periodic tendency to kill people, are the kind of girl most red blooded males would like to find in his sleeping compartment on the Orient Express.
Is that why Bond is special?
I've personally never watched a Bond movie, though I'm told the books are quite good. Le Carre, however, has long been my favorite author. I should like to have lunch with George Smiley.
The books of Alan Furst always have terrific female characters, realistic women who are usually as courageous and as competent as the men.
Len Deighton writes strong women characters. The Bernard Samson series (Berlin Game, Mexico Set, et cetera) featured Bernard's dear wife, Fiona. She also happened to outrank him at The Department.
I believe that it depends on how the book is written and the content that's in it. It doesn't matter whether or not the lead character is female or not. I was surprised that I have a bigger female fanbase than male, which could also be due to the fact that statistically speaking there are more women readers than male readers.Russell Brooks
Author of Pandora's Succession
I believe espionage novels are female friendly. In fact it is mostly what I read. Robert Ludlum and Jack Higgins are two of my favorite authors.I have tried reading Le Carre's novels, but I rarely finish them. His work, like Tom Clancy's gets to bogged down in the reality and/or description which tends to be slow reading and I lose interest.
The Unlikely Spy by Daniel Silva is a great one to read and is based on real events, but the story is fictional.
A GENTLEMAN’S GAME by GREG RUCKA has a strong female character that works for MI6. The characters are based off a graphic novel also written by Greg Rucka called Queen and Country, but the novels are even better than the graphic novels.
Malia wrote: "I believe espionage novels are female friendly. In fact it is mostly what I read. Robert Ludlum and Jack Higgins are two of my favorite authors.I have tried reading Le Carre's novels, but I rar..."
One of my favorite authors, Barry Eisler, has a strong female fanbase. And one thing that he does is attend Romantic Times conventions, and picks up tips from romance authors. He winds up with more fans.
Russell Brooks
Author of Pandora's Succession
To all, but esp Malia,A fascinating discussion with contrbutors expressing widely differing opinions, for Le Carre and against, for Tom Clancy and against etc, so it shows how different opinions can be. I would agree with Malia that I like Ludlum and find Le Carre hard going, even tho he is a professional.
My suspicion is that the real intelligence world is the world captured by Le Carre or the Ashendon stories, i.e. bitty, long drawn out and cynical. Smiley or Ashendon are close to reality, but less appealing as characters. Maybe the books are too real.
On the other hand I enjoy Clancy. My intro to TC was predictably "Red October", though I did have the benefit of a lot of background knowledge of the Soviet Navy before I read Clancy's fictionalised hunt for the runaway sub. I also realised that it was losely based on a real incident in the Baltic which did not end happily for the defectors.
Something I like about Clancy is his "Jack Ryan" series where you grow up wth the characters, tho I have not managed to read the books in the correct order. In another thread someone spoke about this, and in the trio of novels I have written, "The Lidiya Petrova Series", I thought that numbering them WAS a good idea, tho I suspect that people read books in the order they happen to find them.
Something I would love know is if TC mapped out Jack Ryan's career when he was writing Red October,or whether it just developed. When I started "To Kill Our Worthy Comrade" in the Lidiya Petrova series, Lidiya was a pleasant but rather impractical character. Before long Admiral Petrov liked her and so did I, and the blessed girl ended up by taking over.
That in turn gave me problems because she was too young (19 at the start of the first novel) to play an important role. It was the surreal "stranger than fiction" world of the power politics in the Kremlin that provided me with an answer.
Whether readers will like an "espionage" heroine from "the wrong side of the tracks" i.e. the USSR, who manages to attract trouble like a jam jar attracts wasps will be instructive.
Robert Hendry
In 'The Wayward Spy', Roger Croft's main female character is a bereaved Palestinian who functions as a Syrian mole working for MI6. She falls in love with Michael Vaux, the former journalist recruited by the British spy agency for a one-off mission. Her adopted English name is Barbara Boyd (aka Veronica Belmont) and her Palestinian name is Alena. She is a classic Arab beauty and plays a key role in the interplay between Syria's intelligence service, Britain's MI6 and the ubiquitous CIA. Vaux learns of her terrible fate at the hands of an avenging MI6...but all is perhaps not as it appears.
Gayle Linds, I think is very worth reading. She is a female author, but her writing doesn't reflect gender issue unless the gender issue is a part of the story. I don't like romances per se, so the use of this is not critical with me. Unless it's overdone in relation to the story; then I'd just as soon choose another book.
Lots of great suggestions here, including Alan Furst. I would add Graham Greene and Charles McCarry, and even John Lawton for giving females more to interest them by including strong and well-rounded female characters, also a by-product of just good writing. I just mentioned it on another thread, but this discussion also reminds me of Restless by William Boyd: A Russian/English woman spies for Britain on the US during WWII. Good stuff that gets into issues a woman faces performing a traditionally male role at that time.
There are some great civil war women spies, and I think, one from the revolutionary times.
I just reread "The Polish Officer," by Alan Furst, and am currently rereading "Dark Star." Man, he's so good.
Hi. I just joined this group. I love this question.I was "weaned" on the great espionage thriller writers of 20-30 years ago.. LeCarre, Ludlum, Deighton, Gifford, Follett... but stopped reading them because the characters seemed rather bland and cardboard. And, of course, no one was giving much depth to females, except LeCarre in THE LITTLE DRUMMER GIRL.
Recently I've seen huge changes though.. and about time.. in terms of female characters. Daniel Silva does them quite well (I'm always happy in late June-July when a new Silva comes out); I'm also liking Philip Kerr's females, especially in IF THE DEAD RISE NOT.
And I'd like to suggest RESTLESS by WIlliam Boyd. A wonderful espionage novel, in which there are several strong female characters.
I'm not so fond on Alan Furst anymore. I love his writing, but his stories are a little too dry for me.
I'm not sure about if novels are Female friendly but I can assure you Women are the backbone of many operations. My team had 2 women. Either would have been as good or better choices for command as I was.
One of them was the best I have ever met - I miss her.
יהי זכרו ברוך
Mod
Recently, someone entered a John LeCarre discussion thread to label him a misogynist. Bearing the above truisms in mind, I fairly lit into him. View the carnage here:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
From Anna Cain, a Goodreads member:I'm normally not a fan of the thriller genre, and I must admit that I began "The Great Liars" with a fair dose of skepticism.
Read the back cover, and you get a very particular idea of the novel. Retired Navy officer, government cover-up, World War II setting. I was imagining a humorless, testosterone-fueled thriller with a poorly veiled political agenda. My apologies, Jerry. I don't know the last time I entered a book with such unfair preconceived ideas.
"The Great Liars" is a delightful read. I'm rather surprised it took me a full week to finish, as this is the sort of book you can whip through in a lazy afternoon. However, this leisurely pace was actually a fun change. I rather enjoyed crashing at the end of every day to read a few chapters of "The Great Liars."
Other readers have thoroughly covered the book's humor, but this review would be incomplete without a further mention. Honestly, "The Great Liars" could do away with plot and devolve into an unbroken ramble. I wouldn't care. Carroll not only creates a witty voice, but manages to maintain it over the course of the novel.
Also, I'd like to touch on one aspect of the book that pleasantly surprised me. Can anyone name a (non-Lizbeth Salander) female narrator in a thriller book? You certainly won't find one in Ludlum! Props to Carroll for challenging the hyper-masculinity of the genre.
An Honest reply to this post would be straight "NO". 90% of the spy-mystery-thrillers are not at all Female friendly in terms of involvement of female characters and their overall role. The reason being simple, "spy world/military world" always "had" been male dominating society. Women are always considered paper-pushers in our world, sad but true. Though they are as tough as any man could be. Though some writers/novels has written some very important and glorified role of women in few novels, but that said, it really haven't done much in order to attract female readers. Considering the fact that usually such kind of works include blood and gory, many female readers naturally feel repulsive from it.
Just a matter of choice, i'd say!
Mod
Other generations of human beings dealt with these realities in a mature, sober, stoic, & unflinching manner. What is wrong with us that we fall on the ground weeping like infants, gnashing our teeth, rending our garments and beating our breasts?
(Feliks - I trust you’ve now resumed your feet, your chest bruises have healed and you’ve learned how to darn those garments!)Notwithstanding the personal tastes of female readers, the era in which a novel is set is surely also pertinent?
For example I totally agree with the earlier poster that Fiona is a huge character throughout the Len Deighton trilogies (indeed why I always refer to them as ‘the Samson’ and not the ‘Bernard Samson’ series) however, certainly in the 1980s, a key additional challenge was how to succeed in a man’s world … and the consequences of doing so. Was it not perhaps for this reason that, as fun as its other female characters like Tante Lisl, Gloria and Tessa are, none threaten to be anything more than supporting cast?
In response to the OP: I certainly hope women readers constitute some sort of a market, not least as the young narrator/protagonist in my debut novel employs only female names while pounding the streets of London !
Mod
I maintain that thrillers --for a long time --were not female friendly; and 'even today' (see below) certain strains of men's thriller are still not friendly.
Question: why does everything have to be 'made friendly'?
Also, I don't quite grasp why every valorizes 'today's times' as being soo much advanced and sooo much more progressive? Hegemony --in all the traditional areas-- still rules, from what I can see. The only difference I observe is that there's a lot more chatter claiming otherwise. As if some quarters are desperate to convince us all. But ...facts don't bear it out. I'll name just one industry: entertainment. Still a vast gap in pay and power. Sensational court cases do not equate to 'change', they simply mean that poor practices burrow deeper out of sight.
Espionage novels ...female friendly? Depends on where you tilt the microscope. Some writers just don't feel any need to lend their novels to reformist movements; some novelists are too big to even care about such fleeting trends. Personally, I can't even blame them. Novels should toe no party line.
Besides, writers already have a full plate on their lap, just adhering to all the other rigors good fiction entails. Genre writing itself (espionage, SF, horror) hardly demands either, that they strive to portray more enlightened social attitudes. This is not the responsibility of any genre author at all, really. Their undertaking is to entertain us, nothing more. There's no accountant or overseer slapping their wrists when they simply follow existing genre standards for whatever genre they're emulating.
Oversight as such, only occurs if their novel is adapted into a screenplay.
Anyway thanks for inquiring into my health, I don't recall the specific injury mentioned above but I'm free of mishap lately (although some very close calls).
The short answer to your musing is that genre authors always have the option to humor reform-minded public (Stig Larssen or whatever his name is) but they risk writing *implausible*, masthead fiction by doing so. It's a prescription for preposterousness, to try to make a spy novel match the higgeldy-piggeldy world of today's hysterical headlines and speed-of-light pop trends. Novels aren't media; they ought not kowtow to the whitewash wagons hurtling down our streets.
Stieg, I believe. Not mixing him up with Stig Of The Dump by any chance are you?:oD
And forgive me, you don't know me from the proverbial bar of soap but my opening comment was simply picking up on your previous concluding one !
What is wrong with us that we fall on the ground weeping like infants, gnashing our teeth, rending our garments and beating our breasts?
Last I checked, women readers were over half the readership of thrillers and woe be to any author who writes without keeping the majority of his-or-her fan base in mind. A misogynistic hero/anti-hero and no female characters beyond the usual spy-seductress trope leads to downed eBooks and dampened sales.
Mod
But women's taste is surely nothing a writer should steer by. They're not a dedicated, traditional thriller readership,, but just part of the 'audience of the moment'. They don't know favor classics the way the core male readers do; they read the 'most talked about titles lately', no matter what the genre. That's the subtext underlying Amazon download figures.
Because in exactly the same way, they also make up big numbers for vapid urban fantasy franchises, and they also comprise large audience segments for paranormal romance series and billionaire brats series and they also (for that matter) gobble down any other codswallop which happens to catch their eye. If they read thrillers with any frequency, its 'nice', 'polite' thrillers. Thrillers are not something they've followed all their lives, the way male readers can attest to doing.
I privately believe a little misogyny comes with the territory of thrillers; its a facet of the genre itself. In the same way that pirates are a standard of 'bodice-ripper' fiction.
For proof, you have decades of classic men's fiction which all exemplify the success of this style; books which are still read today. The James Bond series, if nothing else. Conversely, no author pandering to today's internet clamor will be able to say the same about their 'e-books'. Those're consumed as thoughtlessly as one munches Fritos corn chips and tossed aside like empty plastic bags, afterward.
Summing up: to my way of thinkin', 'nice fiction' is a timid way to go about things, in a market which features mainstream hits like (BDSM-based) 'Fifty Shades of Gray' or the cold, domineering young hunks of 'Twilight'. There's never any lack of market for 'real men'.
I don't know how many women are "espionage aficionados" but, as an author, I'd like to know. Women read a hell of a lot more than men do.
Mod
Yes, you're right about that. I belong to a readers group and most of the novels they pick are "female friendly." A few of those books I stop reading less than halfway thru because nothing is happening; ie no plot.
Mod
Ouch! :)Billionaire Brats based books - seriously?
* "Fifty Shades of Grey" - "Twilight".
I will add for you *Harry Potter and the like.
Never!!
** Books above have a no-interest theme for me only.
Feliks wrote: "Indeed; and books today must also pass rigorous censorship leveled by self-appointed, armband-wearing watchdogs. Many readers will dismiss a book out-of-hand if it is not scrupulously conformist to..."Generally speaking of course.
Mod
Sift through book reviews anywhere on Goodreads; you'll find readers whining and complaining over the same mincing little mamby-pamby issues, almost no matter what the book, author, or genre. Nothing's good enough for them these days unless it's approved by the Good Housekeeping Seal of America and Reader's Digest
Bunch of frightened little nannies grabbing their skirts and perching on a stool when they spy a mouse on the floor.
Men and women both! Makes me puke.
All righty then- I must say reading your comments this morning made me laugh; you succeeded in allowing me to conjure up an adorable visual. that captured your choice of words. .
I didn't want to agree with your POV, but I can't disagree. And I can't say Im exempt from never having read a rom-com, etc. in my life; not my genre. I would be curious to know the percent of reviewers/influencers who are not up front.
To your point again, (which someday will bite me in the ass) , the general audience may go for the newest and best commonplace book bc more authors than not write them for just that reason. "Target your audience".. and they did.
The whining and complaining is disgusting in every genre .
I always though a book rating was based on how well a book is written and the storyline. I may be in the minority here, but
when I feel a book is below 3* I wont rate it.
I will if it is racist, abusive and inappropriate, which I also flag.
GR's flagging is a discussion for another time. :(
Feliks wrote: "Bunch of frightened little nannies grabbing their skirts and perching on a stool when they spy a mouse on the floor.Men and women both! Makes me puke."
Hear! Hear! The same goes for all political correctness, which is just about everything these days.
Sherlock Holmes, in The Sign of Four says, “Women are never to be entirely trusted – not the best of them.” So what? There is a school of thought that holds that Sherlock was a woman, the evidence including (view spoiler) in The Hound of the Baskervilles.
One might as usefully ask, “is romance or feminist writing 'male friendly'?” It overwhelmingly is not, but again, so what?
Wanting to “flag”/cancel/censor anything because in your personal opinion it is "inappropriate” is reprehensible. Don't be a Karen! If you don’t like a book, give it a bad rating, and/or leave a thoughtful review explaining your issues with it and let that speak for itself.
I probably don’t have any business posting here as I’ve been away from the group for a long time but I remember reading, and enjoying, The Company of Saints by Evelyn Anthony. It approaches the espionage genre from a woman’s perspective. It’s not in the LeCarre caliber, but doesn’t miss by far.
Mod
I don't know that author, but I do know that there've been numerous female espionage authors and they've acquitted themselves quite well. One need only mention Helen McInnes.
Women authors have obviously excelled too in mystery, detective, and crime fiction. Highsmith, Christie, Ngaio Marsh, Josephine Tey, Helen McCloy...scads of very respected names.
Perhaps the question asked in the header of this post, is disingenuous. A book can be taken either way depending on the critic. It's not necessarily one or the other.
Mod
It's okay to raise one's voice a notch when outraged at some social ill. I've been known to do it myself; though not so much anymore.
Not okay to shout at a fellow group member of course; but I didn't detect he was shouting at you Stacey.
I'm sure he'll explain exactly what he meant if we give him time to think over his point.
Stacey,Feliks has it right - political correctness and cancel culture are hot button issues for me. The cancelers try to get people fired from their jobs, ruin their businesses, deplatform/silence their speech and ban their books. It is a plague.
Amazon has banned a number of books due to flagging. Considering their dominant position in book sales, it is the modern equivalent of book burning, or the secret police busting up the printing equipment in a raid.
Mod
I've been warning people about the internet's potential for censorship, for years.
Mod
Mod
This is definitely the juncture where I trim off the tail end of this topic. One or two more posts and then I'm rolling it back.
Stacey, if 'coolbreeze' preached a bit loudly ....advocating a 'best method of flagging sub-3 star books' which he feels is the most effective ...as opposed to the style in which you 'flag sub-3 star books' ....it's not a diss. No need to make a 'thing' of it.
Even if it seemed like his comment was prompted by yours ...okay; so it's just two people talking at cross-purposes. Each one affirming the method they think is best. We get it. No one is at a disadvantage, each viewpoint was heard. It's not a contest. Meaning has happened, everyone's been grokk'd.
p.s. Karen, Lisa, Sue, etc ...if this is a new callout trend, I'm ag'in it. I know plenty of Karens who are very nice.
There's already "Chatty Cathy" and "Debbie Downer". That's enough of that kind of thing.
"The titles aren't important -but I took exception to them not for politics, not for the "lies" John, and not for the idle inappropriateness you may assume I referred to."I never commented on any of your posts, Stacy. Please let me clarify: What I said about lies applies to the liars coolbreeze referred to who were thrown off FB for lying:
"Facebook's ban list runs to 100 pages and includes President Trump, Michael Flynn, Sidney Powell, Steve Bannon, Rose McGowan, Alex Jones, Laura Loomer, Tommy Robinson and Milo Yiannopoulos"
People like Hannity, Tucker Carson, Ingraham, etc are allowed to use their free speech right to propagate THE BIG LIE. Same applies to FB. The Supreme Court recently ruled that private corporations also have free speech rights; that means they have the right to decide what can and cannot be said on their sites.
John wrote: ""The titles aren't important -but I took exception to them not for politics, not for the "lies" John, and not for the idle inappropriateness you may assume I referred to."I never commented on any..."
I know you havent- My apologies for getting it wrong- //
I think this should be the finale'
As far as I am concerned it will be. Thanks for your understanding.One more thing. Please accept my apology for misunderstanding by going to:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
You can get a free spy thriller! Written by me! Now how about that! (Please forgive my overuse of the "!" )
Forgot to mention, this book has a strong female lead.
Take care,
JP
John wrote: "As far as I am concerned it will be. Thanks for your understanding.One more thing. Please accept my apology for misunderstanding by going to:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/......"
Cant resist a female lead.:)
Thank you for the kind offer.
Don’t believe I have commented here before. My favorite spy/agent is Quiller, read and reread. I’ve read most of LeCarre and the best of Geoffrey Household. I haven’t found any others that I enjoy as much or can stick with, including James Bond. I don’t read family/romance sagas or look for sex scenes. As a kid I loved Mary Stewart. I enjoy adventure stories. Gosh I need a good book. I’ve turned to the fantasy/horror of Jeff Vandermeer-terrific.
Mod
the above two messages offering a book promo are a type of post which may only be placed in the 'author promo' section of the group.
I let them stand for a while because its a harmless error by a new group member.
the reason for the guideline is that this kind of thing used to be an enormous problem all over the Goodreads groups area of the site.
Thanks for letting me know, Felix. I will immediately delete.
Mod
I admit it may seem like a fussy restriction but, it helps in the long run.
and there's always ways to get your free offer across to other members. you can PM them, for instance.
Espionage Aficionados
Books mentioned in this topic
The Hound of the Baskervilles (other topics)Restless (other topics)
The Sign of Four (other topics)
Pandora's Succession (other topics)
