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Peril's Gate
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Peril’s Gate: Lysaer **SPOILERS**
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Any pity for him is hard to maintain when he cuts Jieret's tongue out to keep him from speaking the truth, and blames him for all the deaths at Daon Ramon that were caused by his own 'gift.'
Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "...In consideration of these kinds of deeds, I just do not see how he can ever, ever find redemption in sanity. If the full scope of his misdeeds were ever shown to him as Arithon's are in the maze, then I don't see how he could survive. Maybe I'll be proved wrong, but I don't see how...."
The only thing I can see right now is if he was set under some kind of block, like Asandir did with Arithon as soon as he found him to keep him from remembering certain things from his past. Of course, Arithon broke through it, but I'm quite sure Lysaer couldn't.
One thing that is starting to bother me is that we are very much inside Arithon's mind, gets to see what's going on and why he makes his decisions, but don't get the same from Lysaer.
I keep thinking that if we were shown as much of Lysaer's inner thinking and his struggles, we'd understand him better - at least pity him, and perhaps even like him more.
That's true, Siv. I hadn't thought of it. But we only see Lysaer through the eyes of others! There was some of it in Book 1 before the curse got him. I wonder if that's deliberate?
Sandra aka Sleo wrote: " I wonder if that's deliberate?"I've come to believe that everything we get to see (or in this case not see) is done deliberately.
Well I figured it was a silly question, but we all do, after all, have blind spots. Even Janny, lol! ::ducks and scurries off stage::
Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "::ducks and scurries off stage::"LOL! Probably a wise decision.
I'm trying to write a coherent story myself - and there we're not talking blind spots... there are abyssmal gaps in the plot. (Trying to fill in those now when the first draft is done...)
Ah! Good luck with that.
Siv wrote: "Sandra aka Sleo wrote: " I wonder if that's deliberate?"I've come to believe that everything we get to see (or in this case not see) is done deliberately."
Definitely deliberate.
Not a 'blind spot' on my part, either.
In its own time, Lysaer's inside point of view ABSOLUTELY will be addressed.
Janny wrote: "In its own time, Lysaer's inside point of view ABSOLUTELY will be addressed. "Looking forward to that...
Janny wrote: "Siv wrote: "Sandra aka Sleo wrote: " I wonder if that's deliberate?"I've come to believe that everything we get to see (or in this case not see) is done deliberately."
Definitely deliberate.
yeah! me, too.
N..."
Well, we get a few glimpses into Lysaer's heart in his confrontation with the Rathain centaur. And the centaur offers him unconditional redemption... which he TURNS DOWN! He just can't believe it's the curse that drives him, apparently forgetting his own lies. :(
Well, when the story gets there (and it will) get ready to flip your wig. ;)
Janny wrote: "Well, when the story gets there (and it will) get ready to flip your wig. ;)"Oh, I'm sure. :\
Unless he has no memory of what he does under the Curse's influence? I suppose that's possible. There's a wall between Lysaer the man and Lysaer the avatar/godling.
I think it will be quite the momentuous occasion when Lysaer finally meets a living Paravian and is called to justice for his actions. Somehow I think their justice will be tempered with mercy and Lysaer will finally be able to see what he has done.
Amelia wrote: "I think it will be quite the momentuous occasion when Lysaer finally meets a living Paravian and is called to justice for his actions. Somehow I think their justice will be tempered with mercy and..."He met a Paravian! One came to the battlefield at Daon Ramon. His reaction was to reject the message.
Sandra aka Sleo said, "He met a Paravian! One came to the battlefield at Daon Ramon. His reaction was to reject the message."A great chapter. It blew me away. That Paravian, though was called from the past. I don't think Lysaer has had his full reckoning yet.
Amelia wrote: "Sandra aka Sleo said, "He met a Paravian! One came to the battlefield at Daon Ramon. His reaction was to reject the message."A great chapter. It blew me away. That Paravian, though was called..."
Well I'm sure he hasn't had his full reckoning, but most good men are undone by even ghost Paravians. He's totally bull headed.
"He's totally bull headed."Hear, Hear!! That is absolutely true.
If he had accepted the offer, would he have moved on to Alithiera?
Amelia wrote: ""He's totally bull headed."Hear, Hear!! That is absolutely true.
If he had accepted the offer, would he have moved on to Alithiera?"
Good question. I don't know, but think it would be more just if he had to stay on earth and live with what he's done. I don't think there can be redemption without facing the full brunt of why we need it. Which may be another reason he rejected it, come to think...
Amelia wrote: ""He's totally bull headed."Hear, Hear!! That is absolutely true.
If he had accepted the offer, would he have moved on to Alithiera?"
He would have, you got it.
Janny wrote: "Amelia wrote: ""He's totally bull headed."Hear, Hear!! That is absolutely true.
If he had accepted the offer, would he have moved on to Alithiera?"
He would have, you got it."
Glad I got something right. Yeah!
Amelia wrote: "Janny wrote: "Amelia wrote: ""He's totally bull headed."Hear, Hear!! That is absolutely true.
If he had accepted the offer, would he have moved on to Alithiera?"
He would have, you got i..."
Well - grin - something 'right' on this page of this volume is as likely to reverse, next book round...;) So everybody will fall on both sides of that issue. As you've probably figured out by now?
Where did you think you went 'wrong?'
Janny wrote: "Amelia wrote: "Janny wrote: "Amelia wrote: ""He's totally bull headed."Hear, Hear!! That is absolutely true.
If he had accepted the offer, would he have moved on to Alithiera?"
He would have, ..."
I was just thinking of my ideas of the Paravians. I had those wrong. I don't know if I'm picturing them right yet, but I've at least thrown out my preconcieved notions of them.
It's just nice to see that I'm picking up on some things. Now I definitely am expecting to have all perceptions changed or tweaked in some way as I continue the series.
Amelia wrote: "Janny wrote: "Amelia wrote: "Janny wrote: "Amelia wrote: ""He's totally bull headed."Hear, Hear!! That is absolutely true.
If he had accepted the offer, would he have moved on to Alithiera?..."
How did you picture them, and what changed?
Janny wrote: "Amelia wrote: "Janny wrote: "Amelia wrote: "Janny wrote: "Amelia wrote: ""He's totally bull headed."Hear, Hear!! That is absolutely true.
If he had accepted the offer, would he have moved on to..."
I think it was mostly for the centaurs. I was picturing them as the half human, half horse. In another thread you said they weren't like that. I've picked clues that they have horns. It sounds like they could have more features in common with an elk. I'm still thinking that they have humanlike features mixed with more animal elements, but it is on a much grander scale. Very majestic. I also think that they are very large in size. It seems like they've towered over the humans they've met, both Arithon in the maze and Lysaer in Daon Ramon.
The sunchildren haven't been mentioned a whole lot, so I was trying to come up with something in my mind for them. I do picture them as a smaller race than the centaurs. I've also read a passage somewhere where it said they had elvish features. It's also been mentioned that they were very intelligent, wise beings with a great fondness for music.
Unicorns on the other hand I'm actually hoping are similar to our world's ideas of unicorns. I haven't seen anything else to refute that idea. I've always loved the image of unicorns. I do know that they are free ranging creatures who like to live in meadows and open spaces. That reinforces my idea that they are how I've also pictured unicorns. I do wonder if they have a way to speak or communicate with the humans who could withstand their presence. If my presumtions are correct, or even close, they don't have humanlike features, so I don't know if they would have the ability to actually speak. On the other hand, it wouldn't make sense for them to be unable to communicate somehow.
Another thing I've gleaned about them is that they are Ath's gift to Athera to help fix the damage caused by the drakes and also to show the hope, and love of the world, or even Ath, in a very physical form. From this, they were in Athera long before the humans arrived. I believe the Fellowship arrived during the prime years of the Paravians, but they were called in from Space by the dragons. In a way that makes them the dragons helpers or associates. With the Paravians early appearance on Athera, they really wouldn't have been created to interact with humans. I'm just musing here, but I think that they would have been made as emisaries between the dragons and Ath herself and then later to the humans after their arrival.
(This post has absolutely nothing to do with Lysaer, but it did get me thinking about the Paravians. I'm probably way off, but it makes interesting musings.)
Ah yes Amelia. I think our ideas about them are similar. I actually came to this thread tho to talk about Lysaer as I found myself suddenly thinking about him this morning in a new light. I've felt mostly aggravation, outrage and contempt for him while reading, rereading and discussing the series. This morning tho I was suddenly swamped with a profound pity for him as he has become an empty shell of a person with his beauty, his silks and velvets and furs and his glittering jewels. Under the influence of the curse he has become an unthinking, one-sided zealot blundering through life, losing everything he loves and everything truly worthwhile in life. I was truly atruck by the sadness of it all as Arithon is when he cries, "No Lysaer, no."
Maybe we should start a separate thread about the Paravians?
A separate thread about the Paravians - great - do you want me to start one? (Or any of you can).Amelia - there is a description of the Riathan Paravians (unicorns) in Mistwraith - and actually any time - anyone goes into the ground floor entry at Althain Tower - the Chamber of Renown, just inside the main gateway.
And other places, you'll see.
Janny wrote: "A separate thread about the Paravians - great - do you want me to start one? (Or any of you can).Amelia - there is a description of the Riathan Paravians (unicorns) in Mistwraith - and actually a..."
I've been paying attention to the ones in the later books. I haven't been the best to check earlier books. I keep plunging forward. I think once I finish all the books and I don't have the same driving force to find out what's going to happen next, I can go back and at least look through CotM and some of the earlier books and get some of those descriptions and earlier clues back into my head.
I'll bring my thoughts back to Lysaer to make the topic a bit more in line with the original intent.
Lysaer is one of those characters who is really hard to figure out. I think he really has had a hard time in Athera. First he was dumped here unceremoniously and thrown into a life he never dreamed he would take part in. He wasn't the one getting punished. His easy life of being the beloved crown prince was completely thrown out of whack. Then he also brings his prejudices with him. A blood feud like the one between the two families is very hard to overcome and change. I don't think he was prepared mentally to take on the challenge of overthrowing the mistwraith. Then you throw in the Curse and its effects.
I don't like what Lysaer ended up doing in Athera, especially as it pertains to Arithon. He has driven the world into turmoil and set himself up into something he is not. The whole world has gone to war to carry out a personal, curse-driven vendetta.
On the other hand, he is trying to help humanity become better. He's provided families of his soldiers with support, food and purpose, although a poor one. He thinks that what he is doing is for the best of all involved, even though he doesn't understand the consequences of his actions in terms of the compact of the Fellowship and the Law of Major Balance. I do believe he decided to become a leader of the people and he's very good at it. He just doesn't know the right path to lead people on to, so they're getting lost on the way.
There are times when I really, really detest everything that Lysaer is doing, and I wish that someone or something could help him understand what he's created. Other times I feel like crying for his talents and potential that could have taken humanity to much greater heights if the curse hadn't taken hold. If he'd been allowed to see Arithon, the Fellowship sorcerers, Ath's adepts, the clans without the curse's influence, I think he would have been able to help bring the world back into a time of great peace. I think if he had supported Arithon in Etarra, the high kingships could have been restored without any bloodshed.
Sandra, you have pinned the crux of this conundrum by bringing Arithon's perception of Lysaer back into play. In his state of mind, and through his experiences, most telling that in the maze, and with his geas of compassion, and driven by the same curse, Arithon must understand Lysaer better than anyone else. Although he can't know all of Lysaer's reasons and motivations, Arithon must have seen the potential, the goodness, and pain that Lysaer has, some of it frustrated or thwarted, and empathizes with all that has been done on his behalf.
I hope this makes sense. I've been trying to understand my reaction to this story a little better. I've asked myself, why was I drawn to Arithon instead of Lysaer? Why is Lysaer doing what he's doing? What good, if any has come because of Lysaer's actions in Athera? It creates some very interesting trains of thought for me. I don't think I've answered all of my questions, but I do think it's good to have them and then to think about them.
Amelia - I love your commentary on Lysaer.If people gave half the thought to what drives difficult relationships - what understanding might result?
All of your insights and thoughts will stand you in good stead, as there are many windows of insight into Lysaer that are often missed - or overshadowed - by his flawed choices.
Understanding does not make the flawed choices right.
But understanding does grant footing for forgiveness.
I think (wonder?) if that is a major, overlooked factor in life. The victimized forget that you forgive the PERSON. Not the behavior that did the harm.
Janny wrote: "Amelia - I love your commentary on Lysaer.If people gave half the thought to what drives difficult relationships - what understanding might result?
All of your insights and thoughts will stand y..."
That is something I have to remind myself about very frequently. That is, that the person can be loved, forgiven even though I don't agree with their behaviors and choices. Sometimes I have to figure out myself first too, in order to understand why I'm percieving or reacting to a certain person or situation in a particular way. I always learn a lot about myself, my motivations and choices when I actually take time to reflect. Once I understand myself better, I can look at others with new eyes.
I think it's the same with stories, and your books here are great examples. This is not a case of clear cut good and evil. I like complex stories like this. They really make me think about well, 'life, the universe and everything'.
It,s also important to know that forgiveness doesn't mean we condone the person's behavior.
Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "It,s also important to know that forgiveness doesn't mean we condone the person's behavior."Yes, exactly. And it also doesn't mean that there will be no consequences to their behavior and actions. Going back to Lysaer, justice definitely has it's placed when it is practiced fairly and using correct principles.
Do you think, in Peril's Gate, that Lysaer has grown at all?
I think he's on a downward spiral in Peril's Gate. He's clearly in thrall to these 'priests' or whatever they are and they have some sinister roots -- I know what they are, but that's a spoiler, although there are hints in this book... Cerebald's ecstasy when communicating with Lysaer from Avenor. The way he shifts from his grief over his son's death to the glassy iron mask he assumes afterward indicate a deep level of alienation from himself, brought about by his upbringing and his frequent quote of his father's admonition that for a king, personal desires come after the good of the kingdom.
His thinking is also increasingly influenced by the subtle shifts and enslavement's of the curse, which we get a really close up view of during Arithon's trip through the maze. He has none of Arithon's ability to observe his own inner processes and thus is helpless against it. Sulfin Evend's friendship will be a continuing boon as Sulfin becomes more aware of the reality of his idol and his idealism breaks down to allow him to see his hero in a more realistic way. But Lysaer himself is very clueless about his problems.
So I would say he has grown insofar as sometimes one has to slide far enough down to motivate oneself to change.
This thread got me to wondering on a different track (and my apologies for de-railing, but I think it won't take long)... how did s'Ffalenn and s'Illessid families become mortal enemies after their exile? Or was it before their exile? I have a picture in my head of the High Kings and the Clanborn working together to maintain the compact--ruling their kingdoms in their own ways based on their dominant trait but before the rebellion basically working more or less harmoniously toward the same end (obviously, all of that could be badly mistaken). So how did they become enemies? And why was it that s'Ffalenn seems to have kept more closely to the old ways while s'Illessid so easily gravitated toward the town-born ways? Of course, these aren't questions that we can answer from the book (or are they?): are there other stories that give answers? Later volumes? Otherwise, Sandra speaks my mind quite well, though I don't know if I'd call it growth. He seems to believe his own PR more than is probably healthy (for himself or the world).
John wrote: "This thread got me to wondering on a different track (and my apologies for de-railing, but I think it won't take long)... how did s'Ffalenn and s'Illessid families become mortal enemies after their..."There's a good bit on Janny's website under FAQ - The Splinter Worlds. If you go down to the question: How did the blood feud between the s'Ilessid and s'Ffalenn clans originate, there are some very enlightening answers that I believe aren't spoilers.
http://www.paravia.com/JannyWurts/web...
Thank you for pointing me in that direction--just what I was looking for.
He is a total puzzle. And I cannot bring myself to dislike him, because he suffers.
His character has gotten more complicated. I just finished the bit where he nukes all of his own men in his frenzy to destroy his nemesis. In consideration of these kinds of deeds, I just do not see how he can ever, ever find redemption in sanity. If the full scope of his misdeeds were ever shown to him as Arithon's are in the maze, then I don't see how he could survive.
Maybe I'll be proved wrong, but I don't see how.