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THE FEDERALIST PAPERS > FEDERALIST. NO 19




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message 36: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bentley | 35741 comments Mod
Thank you for those wonderful adds Elizabeth. Yes, you could easily work on getting those seven votes; goodness knows that our families have more members (lol).

To a large extent, Britain still has this scenario with hereditary aristocracy issues both with its monarchy and with the House of Lords.

However, they do get to vote for their local representation but not really directly for the man that will become their prime minister.


message 35: by Elizabeth S (new) - added it

Elizabeth S (esorenson) | 2031 comments I find it interesting that the emperor himself was elected, so it wasn't an entirely hereditary position. But it was a totally different election than the type we are used to. There were about 7 "electors," usually heads of states, who voted for the emperor. Not much representation there. And even if the new emperor isn't the son of the old one, there are still hereditary aristocracy issues going on.

sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_rom...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Rom...
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source...


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Yes Patricrk for sure.


message 33: by Patricrk (new)

Patricrk patrick | 471 comments Bentley wrote: "Meaning of above:

Madison with Hamilton clearly shows that even with an emperor; that there is a history of intrigue. The the strong become overbearing and greedy; that the weak are forgotten or w..."


pretty strong arguement against hereditary aristocracy.


message 32: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited Feb 08, 2011 04:09AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

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Meaning of above:

Madison with Hamilton clearly shows that even with an emperor; that there is a history of intrigue. The the strong become overbearing and greedy; that the weak are forgotten or worse - oppressed. And no matter what your station under such a confederacy; your lot would end up being one of misery and unhappiness.


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The next few paragraphs of Federalist Paper No. 19

The prerogatives of the emperor are numerous. The most important of them are: his exclusive right to make propositions to the diet; to negative its resolutions; to name ambassadors; to confer dignities and titles; to fill vacant electorates; to found universities; to grant privileges not injurious to the states of the empire; to receive and apply the public revenues; and generally to watch over the public safety. In certain cases, the electors form a council to him. In quality of emperor, he possesses no territory within the empire, nor receives any revenue for his support. But his revenue and dominions, in other qualities, constitute him one of the most powerful princes in Europe.

From such a parade of constitutional powers, in the representatives and head of this confederacy, the natural supposition would be, that it must form an exception to the general character which belongs to its kindred systems. Nothing would be further from the reality. The fundamental principle on which it rests, that the empire is a community of sovereigns, that the diet is a representation of sovereigns and that the laws are addressed to sovereigns, renders the empire a nerveless body, incapable of regulating its own members, insecure against external dangers, and agitated with unceasing fermentations in its own bowels.

The history of Germany is a history of wars between the emperor and the princes and states; of wars among the princes and states themselves; of the licentiousness of the strong, and the oppression of the weak; of foreign intrusions, and foreign intrigues; of requisitions of men and money disregarded, or partially complied with; of attempts to enforce them, altogether abortive, or attended with slaughter and desolation, involving the innocent with the guilty; of general inbecility, confusion, and misery.


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The meaning of the word diet here is assembly or legislative body.


message 29: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited Feb 07, 2011 04:48PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

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Next paragraphs of Federalist Paper No. 19:

Out of this feudal system, which has itself many of the important features of a confederacy, has grown the federal system which constitutes the Germanic empire. Its powers are vested in a diet representing the component members of the confederacy; in the emperor, who is the executive magistrate, with a negative on the decrees of the diet; and in the imperial chamber and the aulic council, two judiciary tribunals having supreme jurisdiction in controversies which concern the empire, or which happen among its members.

The diet possesses the general power of legislating for the empire; of making war and peace; contracting alliances; assessing quotas of troops and money; constructing fortresses; regulating coin; admitting new members; and subjecting disobedient members to the ban of the empire, by which the party is degraded from his sovereign rights and his possessions forfeited. The members of the confederacy are expressly restricted from entering into compacts prejudicial to the empire; from imposing tolls and duties on their mutual intercourse, without the consent of the emperor and diet; from altering the value of money; from doing injustice to one another; or from affording assistance or retreat to disturbers of the public peace. And the ban is denounced against such as shall violate any of these restrictions. The members of the diet, as such, are subject in all cases to be judged by the emperor and diet, and in their private capacities by the aulic council and imperial chamber.


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Very good examples and analogies Elizabeth.


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Elizabeth S (esorenson) | 2031 comments Finished #19 this afternoon. Earlier in the week than ever before. Yea!

I really enjoy the logic of these papers in general. If I were an anti-federalist, I wonder which portions of the logic I would see as weak.

In this particular paper, it was interesting to me how many of the examples were admitted by Madison to seem to have cohesion. He says the Swiss cantons, for example, are "sometimes cited as an instance of the stability of such institutions." Then Madison proceeds to point out that the stability is not real, or that the union is on a completely different level than outlined in the Articles of Confederation.

I think the key statement in this one comes on the last page, "Whatever efficacy the union may have had in ordinary cases, it appears that the moment a cause of difference sprang up capable of trying its strength it failed." In other words, these unions were unable to stay together in the hard times. It also underscores Madison's intentions that whatever government chosen by the United States, he thinks it should last.


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Elizabeth very true; there is nothing like experience and experience does not happen overnight.


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Elizabeth S (esorenson) | 2031 comments Bentley wrote: "...Also, in time of peace (which we are not in presently) sometimes our country dismantles our protective forces and/or does not protect them well enough with the right gear, technology, backup and tools...."

We certainly saw this when reading No Ordinary Time. Despite playing a significant role in WWI, the USA was quite unprepared for WWII.

No Ordinary Time Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt The Home Front in World War II by Doris Kearns Goodwin by Doris Kearns GoodwinDoris Kearns Goodwin

It could be argued that it is so much faster to mobilize in today's world versus back then. But it is also much faster for the other guy to mobilize, for the misunderstandings to arise, etc. And some things, like training and conditioning the people, just take time.


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Elizabeth S (esorenson) | 2031 comments Bentley wrote: "This is pretty interesting - Thomas Jefferson's copy of the Federalist Papers:..."

That is way cool. I love seeing old books like this that belonged to X famous person, especially with their signatures/marks in it.


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Elizabeth S (esorenson) | 2031 comments Bentley wrote: "...The founding fathers had great control of the English language as you are finding out (smile).
..."


That is an interesting point. I wonder how much of their value is lost in translation? I would imagine not all, but some.


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Harry wrote: "My take on No. 19 is; given the guideline to discuss the papers specifically and not bring politics into play, is that these are two examples for their time (recent history in terms of 1787)that th..."

Glad you liked the seal and Thomas Jefferson's copy (The Federalist Papers) and how he obtained it.

The founding fathers had great control of the English language as you are finding out (smile).

I think Madison was going to history to prove his point about the present and the pitfalls that lay ahead. The break up of the Soviet Union certainly shows in fighting, uncommon purposes, ethnic eruptions and jealousies. But not certainly like the examples that Madison posed.


message 21: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited Feb 07, 2011 01:02PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

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Regarding Charlmagne:

Charlmagne (742-814) was king of the Franks from 768, and from 800 until his death, emperor of the West. He succeeded to a unified Frankish throne upon the death of his brother, but proceeded to expand the kingdom by conquering Saxony and Lombardy. He united the West German tribes under his rule. On Christmas Day, 800, he was crowned by Pope Leo III as Emperor of the Romans. In addition to establishing what became known as the Holy Roman Empire, he was a great patron of science and the arts.


Source: Notes from book

For more information, you may want to visit the folder we have on this site on The Crusades:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/group_...


message 20: by Harry (last edited Feb 07, 2011 09:16AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Harry (HarryJ) | 124 comments My take on No. 19 is; given the guideline to discuss the papers specifically and not bring politics into play, is that these are two examples for their time (recent history in terms of 1787)that the educated reader of the day could relate to. This paper does not stand out from the rest as , to me it is purely delineation of two examples to be considered.

Personal point......I added the word contumacious to my vocabulary. It means very resistant to authority, flagrantly disobedient or disobeying a court of law.


The point given of military preparedness or lack of it in the advent of foreign threat is well taken. To get a confederacy to react in a expedient fashion is well taken.

Bentley, your point concerning an enemy blindsiding us today is also well taken.

Thanks for posting the image of the seal and it's obverse......quite interesting.

The picture of Thomas Jefferson's copy of the Federalist Papers is of note also.....thanx.


message 19: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 5 stars

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Here is an interesting youtube video showing "2000 Years of History - 1000BC - 1000 AD visually"

2000 year animation shows empires growing and countries changing. History of Europe, Africa, and Asia from the earliest countries to the year 1000.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiGdFn...


message 18: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited Feb 07, 2011 05:41AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bentley | 35741 comments Mod
If you are interested in learning more about the history of the Franks:

History World has a brief historic write-up:

http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/P...

There is also:

Medieval Sourcebook: Gregory of Tours (539-594): History of the Franks: Books I-X

Here is an on line source for this book: (Fordham University)

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/...

A History of the Franks (Penguin Classics) by Gregory of ToursGregory of Tours

Here is a link to the book on Google:

http://books.google.com/books?id=IGIv...

Here is a write-up from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks


message 17: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited Sep 01, 2017 01:58PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bentley | 35741 comments Mod
Regarding the Franks:

Taken from the Federalist Papers Notes:

The Franks were member of a confederation of Germanic tribes originating in the region of the Rhine that formed a kingdom in the territory of Gaul after the fall of the Roman Empire. The Gauls were ancient Celtic inhabitants of the region in Europe roughly comprising modern Fance but including parts of northern Italy (Calsipine Gaul). From 58 to 51 BC, Julius Caesar conquered Gaul for Rome and recorded his exploits in the Commentaries on the Gallic War. With the collapse of the Western Empire in AD 476, Gaul fell to the Franks.

Sources:

The Federalist Papers by Alexander Hamilton by Alexander HamiltonAlexander Hamilton- Notes section

Caesar's Commentaries On the Gallic War & On the Civil War by Gaius Julius Caesar by Gaius Julius CaesarJulius Caesar


message 16: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited Feb 07, 2011 05:22AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

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Paragraph Two of Federalist Paper 19:

"In the early ages of Christianity, Germany was occupied by seven distinct nations, who had no common chief. The Franks, one of the number, having conquered the Gauls, established the kingdom which has taken its name from them. In the ninth century Charlemagne, its warlike monarch, carried his victorious arms in every direction; and Germany became a part of his vast dominions. On the dismemberment, which took place under his sons, this part was erected into a separate and independent empire. Charlemagne and his immediate descendants possessed the reality, as well as the ensigns and dignity of imperial power. But the principal vassals, whose fiefs had become hereditary, and who composed the national diets which Charlemagne had not abolished, gradually threw off the yoke and advanced to sovereign jurisdiction and independence. The force of imperial sovereignty was insufficient to restrain such powerful dependants; or to preserve the unity and tranquillity of the empire. The most furious private wars, accompanied with every species of calamity, were carried on between the different princes and states. The imperial authority, unable to maintain the public order, declined by degrees till it was almost extinct in the anarchy, which agitated the long interval between the death of the last emperor of the Suabian, and the accession of the first emperor of the Austrian lines. In the eleventh century the emperors enjoyed full sovereignty: In the fifteenth they had little more than the symbols and decorations of power.


message 15: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited Feb 06, 2011 09:33PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bentley | 35741 comments Mod
Be mindful that Federalist Paper No. 19 is a continuation.

With the last paper we were focusing on: The traditional federal disease of anarchism as it related to the Greek Republics; now Madison has turned his attention to Germany

So the second example of the traditional federal "disease" of anarchism focuses on: Germanic body.

Madison with Hamilton begins:

THE examples of ancient confederacies cited in my last paper have not exhausted the source of experimental instruction on this subject. There are existing institutions founded on a similar principle, which merit particular consideration. The first which presents itself is the Germanic body.

Translation: If you thought that the Greek Republics were an isolated case, I have news for you - here is another institution which shows similar failings. Do you want our country to fail like these other republics failed because they did not have a strong central government and a robust Constitution to guide them and keep everybody on an even keel?


message 14: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited Feb 06, 2011 08:55PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

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This is pretty interesting - Thomas Jefferson's copy of the Federalist Papers:



The Federalist

Here is the first edition of The Federalist, considered the most important work on statecraft and political theory ever written by Americans. It was principally written by Madison and Alexander Hamilton with assistance from John Jay. This particular copy was owned by Hamilton's wife, Elizabeth, who gave it to her sister, Angelica Church, from whom her friend, Thomas Jefferson, acquired it. Jefferson was one of Hamilton's most inveterate opponents. The essays in The Federalist were written over the pseudonym, Publius. Identifying the individual authors has aroused controversy. Apparently relying on information supplied by Madison, Jefferson assigned essays to individuals in a list on the flyleaf of this volume


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Front:



Back:




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Here is the Seal of the United States:

A write-up from the US State Department:

http://www.state.gov/documents/organi...

The Front:

In the center of the seal is an bald eagle, our national bird. It holds in its beak a scroll inscribed E pluribus unum, which is Latin meaning "out of many, one" and stands for one nation that was created from 13 colonies. In one claw is an olive branch, while the other holds a bundle of thirteen arrows. The olive branch and arrows "denote the power of peace and war."

A shield with thirteen red and white stripes covers the eagle's breast. The shield is supported solely by the American eagle to denote that Americans should rely on their own virtue. The red and white stripes of the shield represent the states united under and supporting the blue, representing the President and Congress. The color white signifies purity and innocence; red, hardiness and valor; and blue signifies vigilance, perseverance, and justice. Above the eagle's head is a cloud surrounding a blue field containing thirteen stars, which forms a constellation. The constellation denotes that a new State is taking its place among other nations.

The Back:


The seal's reverse side is sometimes referred to as the spiritual side. It contains a 13-step pyramid with the year 1776 in Roman numerals at the base. At the top of the pyramid is the Eye of Providence and above is the motto Annuit Coeptis, meaning "It [the Eye of Providence] is favorable to our undertakings" or "He favors our undertakings." Below the pyramid, a scroll reads, Novus Ordo Seclorum, meaning "New Order of the Ages." It refers to 1776 as the beginning of the American new era.


message 11: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bentley | 35741 comments Mod
This was in a review of Federalist 19 by Cathy Gillespie:

She stated:

Federalist 19 continues to reveal to us that the United States system of government as outlined in the Constitution is not just the result of our founding fathers’ vivid imaginations and creativity. The system of government they designed is based on an astute observation of history, an analysis of strengths and weaknesses of the governmental systems of many civilizations, and the improvements upon those systems our founders devised, taking into account their deep understanding of human nature, the people of the United States, and the resources of our great land.

Publius’ arguments for ratification are compelling because he doesn’t simply give an opinion, he backs up his position with example after example.

One of the last sentences of Federalist 19 caught my eye:

“So far as the peculiarity of their case will admit of comparison with that of the United States, it serves to confirm the principle intended to be established. Whatever efficacy the union may have had in ordinary cases, it appears that the moment a cause of difference sprang up, capable of trying its strength, it failed.”

Unlike many governmental systems in history, the system of government designed by our founders, within the structure of our Constitution, has allowed our country to withstand differences capable of “trying our strength.” Our system of government has not failed us, even in trying times. We survived the Civil War. We survived the Great Depression. We survived riots in the 1960’s. We survived World War I, World War II and terrorist attacks upon our country. We will survive the current immigration problems besieging many of our states. Through the course of history we have calibrated and recalibrated the course of our Nation through our elected representatives.


Please feel free to discuss any and all of the above.

Source: Constituting America


message 10: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited Feb 06, 2011 07:56PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bentley | 35741 comments Mod
Some of the quotes which you may want to give some consideration when reading Federalist Paper 19 are the following:

The first one we find Madison with Hamilton discussing 16th century Germany:

“Military preparations must be proceeded by so many tedious discussions, arising from the jealousies, pride, separate views, and clashing pretensions, of sovereign bodies, that before the diet can settle the arrangements, the enemy are in the field.”

We seem today to be caught up in so many discussions and pontificating from pundits about threats from Al Quaeda, and other foreign entities, we lose sight of who or what is moving the ball to secure our country. Additionally with the in-fighting going on between the political parties; who needs enemies. And before you know it; an enemy has surprised us. We probably need to be vigilant that there are countries, organizations, etc. that will never share our vision and ideals. So be prepared. Maybe our founding fathers were also warning us about being militarily alert.

Also, in time of peace (which we are not in presently) sometimes our country dismantles our protective forces and/or does not protect them well enough with the right gear, technology, backup and tools.

“The small body of national troops which has been judged necessary in time of peace, is defectively kept up, badly paid, infected with local prejudices, and supported by irregular and disproportionate contributions to the treasury.”

Please discuss your viewpoints of the above.


message 9: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 5 stars

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You may also be interested in the following:

America the Story of US; can be downloaded on iTunes also:

http://www.history.com/shows/america-...

Source: History.com


message 8: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited Sep 01, 2017 01:58PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bentley | 35741 comments Mod
Here is another book you may want to look at:

Miracle at Philadelphia The Story of the Constitutional Convention, May to September 1787 by Catherine Drinker Bowen by Catherine Drinker Bowen

Synopsis:

This book is a history of the Federal Convention in Philadelphia that resulted in the Constitution of the United States.


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America The Last Best Hope (Volume I) From the Age of Discovery to a World at War by William J. Bennett America The Last Best Hope (Volume II) From World War I to the War on Terrorism by William J. Bennett

by William J. BennettWilliam J. Bennett

These books may be of interest to you while studying the Federalist Papers.

These have a conservative viewpoint.

About the author:

William John Bennett (born July 31, 1943) is an American conservative pundit, politician, and political theorist. He served as United States Secretary of Education from 1985 to 1988. He also held the post of Director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy (or "Drug Czar") under George H. W. Bush


message 6: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bentley | 35741 comments Mod
Tell me if you have read Federalist Paper 19 and please quote the sentence, sentences, paragraph that you like the best or which moved or impressed you the most.

Please discuss why you made that selection and what you liked about it or why it stood out.

Let us try to discuss the Federalist Papers specifically in this discussion; it really is not a political discussion; it really is an examination of the papers themselves. Of course, policy and politics may come up and things we are doing now versus what the papers stated; but the focus is always the papers first and politics second not the other way around. In fact, all three of the authors of the papers changed their positions frequently.

Remember all = that in message three there is a link to an on line version that you can read easily, read along to the audio which I recommended you do, and you can also do a cut and paste of the sentence, sentences, paragraphs you liked and then do a paste into your post so that we can discuss what you liked and why.

Also, remember that once you have expressed your view; that others can post a dispute, an explanation, or an agreement. Everybody is entitled to their opinion but let us keep the discussions about the papers not about anyone's personal beliefs. You are not going to persuade someone to adopt your political beliefs here; so when somebody disagrees with you or has another point of view - that is OK - let it go. We are here to discuss the papers and get a lot out of the discussion not promote an ideology.

Keep discussion civil and respectful.


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Summary:

Federalist No. 19 is an essay by James Madison, the nineteenth of the Federalist Papers. It was published on December 8, 1787 under the pseudonym Publius, the name under which all the Federalist Papers were published. No. 19 addresses the failures of the Articles of Confederation to satisfactorily govern the United States; it is the fifth of six essays on this topic. It is titled, "The Same Subject Continued: The Insufficiency of the Present Confederation to Preserve the Union."

Source: Wikipedia


message 4: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited Feb 04, 2011 06:13PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bentley | 35741 comments Mod
How To Get the Most Out of Your Reading:

May I also suggest that you bring up the on line text version of the paper you are reading (in this case Federalist Paper 19) or open to it in your book and then start the Americana Phonic Oral Reading audio; it does have more power when a strong voice is reading the paper and you will get more out of it reading along while listening to it.

The links are in message 3.


message 3: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited Feb 04, 2011 06:10PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bentley | 35741 comments Mod
We find ourselves on the following paper: (beginning February 7, 2011)

FEDERALIST No. 19 The Insufficiency of the Present Confederation to Preserve the Union - Cont'd (Madison with Hamilton)
February 7, 2011 - February 13 (page 124)


Links to 19:

http://federali.st/19

You can also listen to them being read orally to you:

Federalist 19 audio:

LibraVox

http://ia700208.us.archive.org/14/ite...

Federalist Papers - Access page - scroll down to the bottom:

A much better oral reading:

http://americanaphonic.com/wp-content...


message 2: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bentley | 35741 comments Mod
Hello Folks,

On February 7th, we will be continuing with the next paper of the Federalist Papers - Federalist No. 19. However, I am starting to set up the thread now in advance of the opening date.

FEDERALIST No. 19 The Insufficiency of the Present Confederation to Preserve the Union - Cont'd (Written by James Madison with Alexander Hamilton)
February 7, 2011 - February 13, 2011 (page 124)


Check back around the 7th and more information will be added for this discussion. We will be doing one Federalist Paper a week. If you are catching up, that is no problem; we have a thread dedicated to each paper so you can catch up when you are able.

Bentley


message 1: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited Sep 01, 2017 01:57PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bentley | 35741 comments Mod
This is the thread for the discussion of FEDERALIST. NO 19.

This paper is titled THE INSUFFICIENCY OF THE PRESENT CONFEDERATION TO PRESERVE THE UNION (CONT'D) .

This paper was written by James Madison with Alexander Hamilton.

The Federalist Papers by Alexander Hamilton by Alexander HamiltonAlexander Hamilton


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Books mentioned in this topic

The Federalist Papers (other topics)
From a World at War to the Triumph of Freedom 1914-1989 (other topics)
From the Age of Discovery to a World at War (other topics)
Miracle at Philadelphia: The Story of the Constitutional Convention, May to September 1787 (other topics)
Caesar's Commentaries: On the Gallic War & On the Civil War (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic

Alexander Hamilton (other topics)
William J. Bennett (other topics)
Catherine Drinker Bowen (other topics)
Gaius Julius Caesar (other topics)
Gregory of Tours (other topics)
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