The Bronze Horseman discussion
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Could you have done what Tatiana did?
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Megan
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Jul 14, 2010 03:22PM
Ok the first time I read The Bronze Horseman & The Bridge to Holy Cross I hadn't yet had my son and didn't even question whether I could leave Anthony to go back to save Alexander as Tatiana did, but I recently read the books and I don't think I could've left my son if I were in that position... Those who have children, could you have done what Tatiana did?
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If I knew in my heart he was still alive, and that he makes me, me, he is part of me and my son, then yes. Like she said Once he carried her now she was carrying him. The strength and will to bring him home to where he belongs. If I could I would. Now ask me if I think I am strong enough..LOL
Mumbo wrote: "Ok the first time I read The Bronze Horseman & The Bridge to Holy Cross I hadn't yet had my son and didn't even question whether I could leave Anthony to go back to save Alexander as Tatiana did, b..."Such a great question. But a hard one to answer! Off the top of my head I say yes I would go back for my husband. Then I would have to really take into account all the factors a really really strong possibility that she would never make it back to Antman so??????? The answer is
I don't know! LOL
Has anyone seen Reds with Warren Beatty and Diane Keaton? When Louise goes back to Russia to find Jack OMG the journey she took to get to him. I imagine that is what Tatiana did for Alexander.
Mod
I would go back, but I don't have kids, so in that regard the decision would be easier to make.
With kids though, I can see the arguement for both sides. But I think if you didn't go, you would always wonder if you could have found him and that maybe he was still alive.
I don't have kids,nowhere near to having them but there is no way I would have gone. This is one of things that always bothers me about Tatiana and something that I could never forgive her for. She failed her duty as her mother. I don't care what gut feeling she had, her son had lost his father and she put herself out there and at risk on the flimsiest bits of evidence.What would have happened to Anthony she had no immediate family or any, and Vicky would have been his mother, and she aint the most maternal of figures. I get its an epic love story la de de da so she had to go for reasons of the story, but not cool. At all.
That is a tough question...but being a mother of 2 boys, I truthfully can say would have never left them..specially not knowing what the outcome would be. They went away last summer for 1 week and I just about died that week without them.
Little wrote: "I don't have kids,nowhere near to having them but there is no way I would have gone. This is one of things that always bothers me about Tatiana and something that I could never forgive her for. She..."This question has come up before. I can't remember my answer but my gut would also be I would NEVER leave my children especially that young. I also know my husband would not want me to.
The thing is and I'm not saying this is what I would do but Tatiana is so young she is in such an awful place I mean I think she is literally dead on the inside. She is trying and trying to move forward and can't. I think that if she didn't leave to find Alexander she wouldn't have been any good to Anthony anyway!
Kelly wrote: "Little wrote: "I don't have kids,nowhere near to having them but there is no way I would have gone. This is one of things that always bothers me about Tatiana and something that I could never forgi..."That's a good point Kelly. Alexander is Tatiana's life..without him she was nothing, even though she had a son. I agree that she probably would not have been nearly the mother she was for Anthony if she didn't go and find Alexander.
Yes but I would rather have a mother half there then no mother at all. She was a pretty good mother to Anthony even when Alexander was not there. I just can't get over it. It's something that bugs me. I guess it's cos I'm a teen and if my mummy did that I would be mad !!!!!!
It was too big of a gamble for a mother to make.
Little wrote: "It was too big of a gamble for a mother to make."You are right Little. It was a hugh gamble for her to take, but do you think she would have really forgotten Alexander and went on with her life as normal? I don't think she could have loved anyone else..ie Edward...and made a good life for Anthony.
I read somewhere that Paullina had an alternative ending for "T and A" and it was that Tatiana marries Edward and they live their years in New York. Then 3o years later Tatiana goes back to Russia to visit and is walking along the street and guess who she sees...Alexander!!! Can you image that ending???? That ending I don't think was ever published.
But if you read Tatiana's table, there is a similar ending...Tatiana and Alexander are talking about "what ifs" ...what if she didn't go back and find him and married Edward..and she tells him her "what if"...
So after thinking about these endings..I can't see Tatiana doing anything else but going to find Alexander and unfortuately leaving her son.
Mod
Alycia wrote: "That's terrible Tina! I just can't imagine Tatiana not with Alexander."I know, it is unthinkable!!!! Think about how many hearts would have been broken, not just Tatiana!!:)
Mod
Yes, it would've been awful, not to mention VERY similar to Outlander...
I don't think this was mentioned, but I kind of thought that beyond the fact that Tatiana would not have been whole and perhaps not have been able to give to her son as she should have, I also think that perhaps Tatiana knows the difference between having a loving mother and father and being an orphan as well as knowing how Alexander felt not having his parents. I know this could be argued that she was leaving open the chance for Anthony to have no one and that's a good point, but I think that when we do things we don't always look at the possibility of failure, and Tatiana had been through so much, perhaps she thought that she would get through it. This is a very hard question. The sun rises and sets on my son in my eyes. I would give up my life for him as quick as blink an eye but you know what I feel the same way about my husband and I think (thank G-d I am not in that position and who really knows what one would do if in that awful place) that if I thought he was alive and living by torture and facing death I very well might leave my son with someone to go find him. I couldn't live with myself thinking he was out there suffering if it was at all possible for me to go and save him. Of course given the circumstances no matter how much of the positive I want to look into I don't think I could pull off what Tatiana pulled off. But that is a book and circumstance has to be extreme for the stakes to be a worthwhile read, I think Paullina's purpose was to examine whether love could bring you force you to make such a choice. As much as I think I will look awful for saying it and as much as it would crush me to even consider it knowing the infinite and overwhelming love I feel for my child, I think I would go back for my husband. When I had my son I went into a coma and almost died, I was told that if I wanted to have another child there was a 15% chance that I wouldn't make it. Most everyone I knew thought I should do it(not my husband)-knowing medicine as it is today it seemed unlikely that something would happen and 15% is pretty darn small, but you know what as much as I wanted more kids and believe me there is not anything in life that I want/wanted more, I couldn't sacrifice my child living without a mother in order for me to have more children. I don't think it even went through my mind that I might lose MY life, only what would become of my son- but I don't think that is unique of me, I think that is all mothers. BUT, would I go back for my husband, who is as much a part of me as my own heart? Yes, I believe I would.(please no throwing rotten tomatoes towards the screen at me :) !!)
Mod
Tina wrote: "Little wrote: "It was too big of a gamble for a mother to make."You are right Little. It was a hugh gamble for her to take, but do you think she would have really forgotten Alexander and went o..."
She couldn't have been the best mother YET, a decent mother compared to no mother is still better. Quite honestly if she saw Alexander I'm pretty sure that she would get a divorce asap or try some way to be with him and they would still live happily ever after.
But what Toni said really got to me. The fact still remains she didn't have enough evidence in my eyes to go and find him. Alot of it was hoping and guessing. If Simons had said he's exactly here, we know that he's alive I would have been more lenient with it. This was post war Germany, they almost got killed!!!!!
But maybe I'm looking at a romance to practically.
I still don't know Toni but you bring up fantastic things to think on! At the moment I'm not sure I would go back for my husband but I would go back for Alexander!!!!! LOL
:) Have to have a little giggle :)
LoL Kelly, so funny!Even I have moments when my husband might have to fight his way through a POW camp b/c he's gotten on the wrong side of me!! Ah, but what can I say...95% of the time I'd battle the devil himself for the man!
Hmmmm, wonder if my husband would mind if I brought Alexander back too??!! LOL
I think if it were Alexander- and we had a lot of evidence (touche Little :))- there would be a whole entire search and rescue team of women out to rescue him!!!!!!!!
Haha and we would definitely sign up for that :)
Yes and a millions times YES! I would bring my Alexander home.
TINA: read Tatiana's table. the alternate ending is in there! And what happens is Alexander actually bumps into Antman through some kind of military meeting (cant remember all details!) and then he relises that he is his father etc.
Rachel wrote: "TINA: read Tatiana's table. the alternate ending is in there! And what happens is Alexander actually bumps into Antman through some kind of military meeting (cant remember all details!) and then he..."omg KILL ME i HAVE TO READ THAT!
Rachel wrote: "Yes and a millions times YES! I would bring my Alexander home.":)
Do you have the book Kelly? I bought mine last year, though I notice alot of ppl on here say that its not available in their country. Its amazing I've made the blinchiki many times - so yummy. All the recipes are in there - P.S: I love making the potato pancakes, I feel like I'm part of a big secret as I watch my family eat them and they don't realise who I'm thinking about as I take each bite :)
Kelly wrote: "Rachel wrote: "TINA: read Tatiana's table. the alternate ending is in there! And what happens is Alexander actually bumps into Antman through some kind of military meeting (cant remember all detail..."Kelly, I will send you the book. I just got it back from my friend and I will put it in the mail to you Monday....you will have it next week!!!!
Rachel wrote: "TINA: read Tatiana's table. the alternate ending is in there! And what happens is Alexander actually bumps into Antman through some kind of military meeting (cant remember all details!) and then he..."OMG I actually think I would've LOVED that storyline - although no doubt I would've been shattered the REAL storyline didn't occur, that is an awesome situation!!! I've never had any interest in reading Tatiana's Table (I thought it was just Russian recipes, and to be perfectly honest, none of Tatiana's cooking inspired me in the kitchen!) but I think I might have to read it now!!
Tina wrote: "Kelly wrote: "Rachel wrote: "TINA: read Tatiana's table. the alternate ending is in there! And what happens is Alexander actually bumps into Antman through some kind of military meeting (cant reme..."Thanks Tina!
MEGAN: Tatianas Table is so much more than a russian recipe book! You must get it - it completes everything. Not only does it include what she cooked in Leningrad, but also America. All Francesca's Mexican recipes are included (and are delicious!), things she cooked while living with Vikki in their apartment in New York... you will be surprised! There are many cuisines in here - not just Russian. Although the Russian is my favourite!
Tina wrote: "Little wrote: "It was too big of a gamble for a mother to make."You are right Little. It was a hugh gamble for her to take, but do you think she would have really forgotten Alexander and went o..."
If Tatiana did not go back for Alexander it actually would have gone completely against character for her. That love was so primal, so painfully indestructable that if she hadn't have gone back she would have been leading a life of at worst, utter misery, at best, a never ending longing that would have overshadowed everyone else in her life.
As for Alexander, why, if he had lived, wouldn't he have gone to find Tatiana? It would make no sense. He lived for her. If he lived past the dealings with the NKVD he would have searched for her until the end of time. People might say that he would have left her to lead her life, not wanting to interfere in what she created, but I don't believe that. When you have a love like that you don't just give up without a fight. He would have at least gone to America to see if she was happy, if there was a chance for them.
Well, I state these like fact, but they are really just my humble opinion, of course.
I did not read Tatiana's table yet so I'm not even sure if what I'm saying has anything to do with the way the book sets things up. I'm just taking the next step in thought as response to Megan's post.
TONI: "If he lived past the dealings with the NKVD he would have searched for her until the end of time. People might say that he would have left her to lead her life, not wanting to interfere in what she created, but I don't believe that. When you have a love like that you don't just give up without a fight. He would have at least gone to America to see if she was happy, if there was a chance for them"
He actually said these exact words to Pasha in book 2. That he would have made his way to America one way or another. And if she was happy with someone else, he would have been happy for her.
How many times did he try to escape. And finding Pasha only gave him more strength and hope.
Rachel wrote: "TONI: "If he lived past the dealings with the NKVD he would have searched for her until the end of time. People might say that he would have left her to lead her life, not wanting to interfere in..."
And Pasha new he would not just let it be. He knew that Alexander would have done anything to have her again. I remember reading that and thinking the same thing as Pasha he would not be happy for her!
Rachel wrote: "TONI: "If he lived past the dealings with the NKVD he would have searched for her until the end of time. People might say that he would have left her to lead her life, not wanting to interfere in..."
Oh, you know I only read book 2 once so I didn't recall, well maybe I did in the recesses of my mind and that is why I said that. Of course he would have gone back though, there is no question.
Kelly, what does that mean 'She went after Pasha?' I'm confused. I should know. But she went back to Russia for Alexander, no? Was it for Pasha? I don't remember that...
Toni wrote: "Rachel wrote: "TONI: "If he lived past the dealings with the NKVD he would have searched for her until the end of time. People might say that he would have left her to lead her life, not wantin..."
I was just referring to TBH and how this little thing went into the unknown war looking for Pasha, of course she would go for Alexander. She is one Brave and courages gal!
Mod
My mom's family is German so I've had potato pancakes many times. So good! Does the recipe say to eat them with apple sauce?
Yes it does Alycia! And also sour cream. Though Ive noted the Russians ate (or still eat?) lots of things with sour cream. I like mine with breakfast. They are wonderful :)
Mod
I recently told a friend of mine to read TBH and she HATED Tatiana. She did not like how she did not listen to Alexander and left Russia when he told to her to (at the end of the first book). I could not agree more! I would not have found the strength to do what Tatiana did, in all three novels. I don't know how you go on after you literally had to bury your entire family. In The Summer Garden when Anthony was stuck in Vietnam, and Alexander yelled at him and said that your mother crawled out of a hole in Russia with a broken arm and being five feet...man up!
That is so true and I love her spirit and her motivation for the future.
Rachel wrote: "TINA: read Tatiana's table. the alternate ending is in there! And what happens is Alexander actually bumps into Antman through some kind of military meeting (cant remember all details!) and then he..."What? There is an alternate ending? Did Simmons write it? Where can I find it? Do I want to read it?
Honestly, I can't even fathom thinking about leaving my kids for to find my husband. It is too hard and deep. But this I know--when she went after Pasha, I couldn't believe it. But I think I would have done it. When she left Laravezo for Leningrad, I lost it. I don't think I could have done that. When she made it all the way to America without Alexander thinking he was dead, I wouldn't have done that. I would have just laid down and died in Sweden. So I guess when she went back to Berlin for Alexander, I wasn't surprised and I knew she could do it. And it just seemed right. Simmons is such a good writer. She prepared us for that and made it believable.
Brunhilde wrote: "Honestly, I can't even fathom thinking about leaving my kids for to find my husband. It is too hard and deep. But this I know--when she went after Pasha, I couldn't believe it. But I think I wou..."I think what made it even worse for Tatiana is in the last book Anthony was resentful towards her and Alexander. Even though Im not a mother I can imagine how hard that was for her, because of Simons writing. Tatiana was between a proverbial rock and a hard place and she chose her husband...could I do that? Ill let you guys know in 10-15 years!! :)
Morgan wrote: "Brunhilde wrote: "Honestly, I can't even fathom thinking about leaving my kids for to find my husband. It is too hard and deep. But this I know--when she went after Pasha, I couldn't believe it. ..."I have a hard time with that how could Antman possibly remember. He was like 2 or 3 for goodness sakes. I can see that in everyday life in TSG she did put Alexander first and I can see how that could make him a bit jealous and resentful to a degree. But they both loved him very much.
I must say that I love my children dearly and they do come first they are also all still little but my marriage and husband are neck and neck. I mean one day they will be gone and have families. I hope to have a long life, happy and still have mad love for my husband after they go. I think it is healthy that the children see a strong marriage.
For goodness sakes it must not have been that bad with Vicki he did end up in love with her!
Tatiana made a choice and picked her husband over Ant...and ant never got over it. Tatiana paid a price for her decision- an insecure child who was always afraid that she would leave. Simmons did a fantastic job showing that all of our choices have lasting affects on those around us.
And I think Ant was probably in love with vicky the whole time and was acting like he hated her because he liked her so much. little boys (and big boys) do that sometimes lol
Jessica wrote: "Tatiana made a choice and picked her husband over Ant...and ant never got over it. Tatiana paid a price for her decision- an insecure child who was always afraid that she would leave. Simmons did ..."
I think it shows in his relationships as he gets older, Vicky, his wife etc.
Kelly wrote: "Jessica wrote: "Tatiana made a choice and picked her husband over Ant...and ant never got over it. Tatiana paid a price for her decision- an insecure child who was always afraid that she would leav..."right- the whole ant/vicky thing to me was just him trying to find a mother figure. the fact that vicky stayed with him when his mom left... he felt safe with her and she gave him security. we see women dating MUCH older men because they have "daddy" issues...why shouldnt it be the same for boys with "mommy" issues?
Jessica wrote: "Tatiana made a choice and picked her husband over Ant...and ant never got over it. Tatiana paid a price for her decision- an insecure child who was always afraid that she would leave. Simmons did ..."
Megan wrote: "Ok the first time I read The Bronze Horseman & The Bridge to Holy Cross I hadn't yet had my son and didn't even question whether I could leave Anthony to go back to save Alexander as Tatiana did, b..."
I don't think it was a matter of choosing. Tania needed closer to move on. Without really knowing if Alexander was alive or dead, she would never be able to live a normal happy life. She was beginning to see that her life was moving forward but she still held back because she believed Alexander was still alive. Until she knew for sure, she would never really be settled.
Jeni
