Outlander Series discussion

Archived > Opinions please (Frank, Laoghaire, Echo, Willie and Companion)

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message 1: by Amy (new)

Amy | 51 comments I would love your opinions! First, sorry for the long message, but stay with me... About seven friends of mine and I started reading Outlander in May and are have now finished with Echo. We are all way into Jamie... We all became completely engrossed and just had an impromptu book club meeting that lasted through many a bottle of wine. Here are the major discussions we had and I wanted to get your opinions as well:

1. Frank: It seems as though we the reader are privy to what Claire's life with Frank was like those 20 years but that Jamie has no real idea but is tortured with the idea that Claire loved him and believes that their marriage was a strong, loving, passionate one. Why is it that she never explains to him the true nature of their relationship. Yes, she loved him but it was not strong or passionate. Only Bree saying, "a marriage of obligation" gave him any concept of what it was like. We felt bad that he has to suffer in this way. Also, seeming that Claire's ancestors are alive and well in England, doesn't it seem possible that their lives will run it's course and Claire will be born in the 1900s? Maybe she and Frank will have a go then.

2. Laoghaire: First, if he was lonely, why didn't he marry Mary McNabb? But, he didn't so... why did he feel he needed to see her in Echo? And, why didn't it upset Claire? Not only was he miserable with her, he found out that she tried to harm Claire with the witch trial thing and he knew how terribly she treated Brianna when she first came through the stones. We thought Claire was just a little too gracious.

3. Echo: What? Where were Jamie and Claire??? There is already a Lord John series, why was he the focus so much? Why would Claire just assume Jamie dead?

4. Willie: It must be hard for Claire to see Willie... Jamie even makes reference to that fact while fishing with him in DOA. Why does that conversation never take place between them? We would have loved to been privy to such. I can see how it would be a little heart-breaking for Claire to know Jamie fathered a child when she was away (even if she didn't blame him or harbor ill feelings) and then see that child, with Jamie's features and that of his lover. And, after Bree found out and asked LJ questions about Willie that he couldn't answer (was Da in love with her?) than why didn't we, as the reader, get to hear the conversation between Bree and her parents regarding Willie?

5. Outlandish Companion: Do any of you have it and is it worth the buy?

Whew, thanks!!! Can't wait to hear what ya'll say!

message 2: by EvaS (new)

EvaS (evikes) | 345 comments Wow... great questions... I agree with all, but haven't read Echo yet (half through ABOSAA - taking my time since it's my first time reading the series and I don't want to run out of 'Gabaldon' too soon!). I think most of your questions could only be answered by Herself, since your points are really about why some things were written a certain way or why elements were left out.

The OC1 is great - the second instalment which includes the books past Drums will be out this year or early 2011. I love having it and spent days pouring over each section as I read the books. It has many details and explanations (and clarifications to questions like you posed) that went a long way for me. And Herself is only human so there are a couple of 'oopsies' which she talks about in the OC. The OC2 will address some of the major questions she gets asked (like OC1 did) and will clarify some of the mapping and timeline inquiries. She has a whole blog dedicated to reader recommendations as to what should be included.

I would recommend it for Outlander lovers, but maybe rent it from your library before investing in it to make sure you see the value in it.

message 3: by Samantha (new)

Samantha | 141 comments Great questions- I've been talking about a lot of the same things with some of my friends as well.

I think that Jamie does have a different idea of Claire's marriage to Frank than what we the readers see. That said, Claire doesn't know everything that happened to Jamie during their twenty year separation. She does know more than he does but I think that that is solely because of their personalities. Jamie has always been more verbally open than Claire has. Claire usually has more intense feelings than she verbalizes. I'm also a little frustrated that Claire has held on to Frank so hard when she went back to Jamie in Voyager. I don't think her life with him was fulfulling, especially her having experienced a life with Jamie, and yet she still thinks about Frank, dreams about him, and clings to his wedding ring. I understand he was a huge part of her life but you would think she would have let a lot of that go by now.

The situation with Laoghaire is interesting to me. I think that Jamie knew all along that she was very much attracted to him and that is probably partly why he married her- along with his deeply ingrained sense of responsibility. He saw that she had children and no man and since there was already history between them... I'm not really sure why he didn't marry Mary McNabb, the only thing I can think of is that she wasn't available at that time- maybe remarried herself.

There was way too much of LJG and William in AEITB and not enough Jamie and Claire. I have said that a thousand times. Very frustrating! Hopefully that will be different in the 8th book.

I don't have the companion so I can't comment on that.

message 4: by Wan (last edited Jul 07, 2010 02:22PM) (new)

Wan (wanwaddell) | 564 comments Amy, Can't really answer your question but this is my opinion. Sorry for the length as well - fair warning -- Spoiler Alert.

1. I was wondering the same thing with Frank -- especially the part that he was also cheating on her MANY times during the 20 years. --And in the later books as well, I can't figure out why Claire was so overly protective of Frank wedding ring.

2. He didn't have any contact with Mary McNabb until the night before he was to be turned in to the Red Coat. -- she came on to him anyway & he's been in the cave by himself for 7 years -- so that doesn't really count. As far as Leghair goes, yes Leghair, ( one of the girl here named her that -- don't remember who -- but it stuck with me) it was his pride he was after not really her.

3. Yeh! same problem here. Why so much of the others and not J&C? I didn't really get Percy's part either.

Second Q - Claire assumed that Jamie was dead because the ship that he was supposed to travel on was attack and sank with NO survivor -- but she didn't know that he was on the different ship.

4. NO...Geneva was not Jamie's lover. She was just Will's mother. Jamie has explained to Claire that he was not in love with her but was, in a way, blackmailed. (Though, I have problem with them -- did it like 3 times.) -- I don't think that Jamie told LJ the whole story of Geneva - that's why he can't really tell Bree anything.

5. I didn't buy the book. I looked at it on Amazon website. You can peek inside of the book. However, I will probably break down and buy it anyhow. Just because it's related to the Outlander. :-)

message 5: by Renee (new)

Renee (nightbird) | 334 comments 1. Claire doesn't discuss Frank because I think she feels guilty for what she did to Frank, IMO. Obviously from the photo that Bree saw she and Frank were at one time really in love. And she did cry missing Frank in Outlander. The 'convenience' bit was all on Claire's part and she knows it. Besides, Jamie really, really doesn't need to know. It's sort of none of his business. The man raised Bree and loved her. And prepared her to maybe one day meet her father. What's Claire got to complain about?

2. I'm a Loaghaire fan. He needed to see her in Echo because I think Diana wanted to clear up some of the Loaghaire hate, AND to clear up who Jenny heard L with. I did like that scene because L got to tell Jamie off and we got to see that she found someone who truly loves her and that she loves. He did not need to be a physically perfect man for L to love him because he loves her. I think that says a lot about L, as well as how well she raised her daughters. Why should Claire care? He'd left L twice for Claire. She's pretty safe. The witch trial? A hot tempered, jealous, scorned 16 year old. As we see when L shoots Jamie she's a passionate woman.

3. Echo- blechhh! Too much LJ. Too many cliffhangers. Not enough Jamie and Claire. I don't even know WHY Jamie is involved in the Rev. war. Claire knows that the Americans win, so Bree's future is safe without Jamie getting himself shot at.

4. Jamie never had that convo with Willie because he could not be a father to Willie anyway. According to the law even if he found out that Jamie was his father the man Geneva was married to was legally his father. Jamie had no rights. And really, Claire cannot fault Jamie. She went back to having sex with Frank. Frank was just incapable of impregnating her or...who knows? She might have gotten pregnant to him again. Six of one half dozen of the other.

5. Nope. I've read the series over 12 times. I don't feel that I need to read it.

message 6: by Samantha (new)

Samantha | 141 comments I think Claire does feel guilty about what she did to Frank, but I also think she doesn't need to beat herself up about it any longer. She was a good wife (the best she could be with her being completely in love with another man whom she thought was dead) to him for 20 years and she did love him and acknowledged and appreciated all he did for her and Brianna. I'm with Wan about her clinging to Frank's wedding band. I just don't understand it. She made the decision to leave that world behind and yet she is very protective of the ring. Their financial situation is precarious for a good part of the time, and selling it could have helped a little.

Renee, you bring up great points about Loaghaire. I think when she set Claire up for that witch trial that she didn't really know the potential repercussions of her actions. She was a 16 year old girl who had her heart broken- hormonal teenagers do a lot of stupid things when they are scorned!

I don't know why Jamie is involved in the Revolutionary War, either. Although I guess it goes along with what Diana defines a man as, and he feels it is his obligation to support the cause in any way he can. Once again, he is adding a huge burden to his shoulders... I feel like Jamie constantly throughout the books takes on these huge responsibilites that are not always his to bear...

I think that it is a little hard for Claire to see Willie, but that time has eased that a bit. It was obviously very shocking to her to find out he first existed, and then to see him in person- with LJG who isn't her favorite person. I don't think she faults Jamie at all and when she sees how strongly (of course) he feels about Willie it softens her to him. Willie also looks like Jamie so that probably helps, also. Bottom line is that anything that makes Jamie happy is OK with Claire.

I just want Jamie and Claire to get some peace in their lives. They have had so much turmoil I thing they deserve to relax as they get older.

message 7: by Sharonh (last edited Jul 08, 2010 07:09PM) (new)

Sharonh | 472 comments Frank: IMH Claire feels guilty about loving Jamie more and especially that Frank accepted Briana and raised her as his own. And I also think it is somehow tied to all the times that she has tried to keep Frank alive and on the planet by begging Jamie not to kill BJR until AFTER Franks (supposed)ancestor is born....every time she thinks BJR is dead...she looks at her hand...she thinks her ring would disappear for some reason. And, she keeps saying that Frank was a decent man. I believe she might (just maybe) think that some of Franks's carousing is caused by the fact that she loved Jamie and had his child.

Leghaire (love that name...describes her perfectly for me): I hate hate hate the fact that Jamie let her call Claire a bitch and a whore...even allowed Marsali to do the same thing. He should have kicked their butts on the spot but he didn't. I don't understand why he married her at all...he could have found anyone in the area but her! And I didn't like the almost "wistful" way he described how they got together and danced the night away. If I'd been Claire I'd have told him to shut his "f-in" mouth...I didn't want to hear it....or I'd described for him every time Frank and I took a tumble in the bed. Sorry, lost myself there... Can you tell I haven't forgiven Jamie for marrying Leghaire and the nerve of the arsehole for being jealous when she found another man and wanting to go see her! Also, I am pissed that he even considered paying her a lot of money for those days to get rid of her...especially since the "batch" shot him! Can you tell I don't like Leghaire?????

Jamie and the Rev War: Jamie was born and bred by his father, after his brother Willie died that is, to be Laird of Lallybroch. Responsibility, loyalty...all those things had been drummed into him from a young age....how could he not want to kick English butt???? after all they did to him and his people??? I think people (all people including higher ups) gravitated to Jamie because of his leadership ability and his spirit. He stood out in a crowd not just because of his stature but because of his ability to lead,his character, his education, his bravery and that spirit Sigh...I'm beginnng to forgive him...

Claire, Geneva and Willie: I understand why Jamie slept with Geneva...even had sex 3 times with her...first off she blackmailed him...and he was afraid for his family back at Lallybroch because he thought there would be repercussions if she told her father he'd been writing them on the sly. Also, like he said...his nether parts had a mind of their own and once he was in that warm bed with a warm willing body and he was so lonely...those nether parts got the best of him....or that was my take on it. It still was a gut-wrenching scene for me. I hated that he was lying naked with someone besides Claire! Can't help it...he told her after Faith died and she slept with the King to get him out of jail that she was "never ever to sleep with anyone but him, EVER!" Guess he learned when he slept with Geneva there could be extenuating circumstances. Claire did what she had to do to get him out of jail even though she thought she never wanted to see him again after their baby died. That was also a gut-wrenching scene for me. Claire, I think, always pits her "supposed sins" against anyone else's and usually ends up forgiving them....just like she forgives LJG for loving Jamie and ends up marrying him and sleeping with him. I can't wait to see Jamie "get him a little of it" and feel what it is like knowing she was in bed with someone else. I know he probably did know what it felt like when she went back through the stones to make Bree safe...but we didn't get to see/hear it at least not in detail and even though I love Jamie more than anyone else in these books...he should suffer a little for being so dang sexy and desirable to other women and see that Claire was too...and not just to low lifes. Hmpfh! Getting mysef all worked up here....and forgetting what the original poster's questions were??????

Like Samantha, I want Jamie and Claire to have some happiness, security and PEACE!

message 8: by Renee (new)

Renee (nightbird) | 334 comments Ha, I don't think Jamie's going to be all that 'gotten' about LJ and Claire. But don't get me started on LJ and Claire because it was a ridiculous scenario.

I think people who hate Loaghaire are taking Claire's version of things too much as fact. DG said that herself. Face it, ladies. You're all Laoghaire's. Jamie led her on, encouraged her then dropped her like a hot stone when Claire came along. Sitting there in the Great Hall pretending he didn't remember L from when he was younger. And practically pushing her out of the way, then winding up later up in the alcove with her on his lap? He treated L like crap. I didn't like that one bit. Jamie was a dawg then.

message 9: by Sharonh (last edited Jul 08, 2010 09:50PM) (new)

Sharonh | 472 comments Yeah, you're right Renee. She mis-read his reasons for taking her beating for her like any 16 y/o would but we all grow up and she should have gotten over it...she didn't want him in her bed when he married her...Claire did and she still didn't want Claire to have him. She wasn't as innocent as we would like her to have been. And, Jamie was thinking with his "private parts" when he was "burning" with her behind the curtain or whatever they were behind when she was so young...and if he truly "loved" Claire like he told her did the very moment when she let him hold her and comfort her when they first arrived at Leoch...he shouldn't have been behind that curtain with Leghaire...the dog...I could beat his butt sometimes.LOL. Sometimes our "jamie" forgets himself. Ha! As far as being a "Laoghaire" myself....bring it on...I'd take some of Jamie's crumbs...slurp and drool.....and know at the same time that he would drop me like a hot potato for his "heart". Sigh....I know...I'm hopelessly addicted to Jamie.

message 10: by Sharonh (new)

Sharonh | 472 comments Re: Jamie being "gotten" with Claire and LJG...I hope it stings but doesn't fester. I want Jamie and Claire happy and together forever! I also want LJG happy too....maybe he will find someone soon to fall in love with and have a HEA like we all want Jamie and Claire to have. I like LJG...alot.

message 11: by Samantha (new)

Samantha | 141 comments Haha Sharon, I think we would all suffer any heartbreak for a little piece of Jamie ;)

I don't hate Laoghaire, I just truly think she is immature. Remember how Old Alec said that she is one of the women who will forever be a girl? I think that she has never really gotten past that more impulsive phase of young adulthood, if that makes any sense. I still see her as a teenager in the way that she behaves more than a grown, mature woman. I don't think her shooting Jamie was an act of passion as much as it was an act of being vindictive/scorned. She didn't love him, didn't want him, but didn't want anyone else to have him either. Certainly not Claire, who he gave up Laoghaire for years ago. It is like setting Claire up for the witch trial all those years ago... same childish behavior although she definitely knew what the consequences of shooting Jamie could be.

I like LJG a lot, but if he is in the 8th book like he was in Echo I am going to end up disliking him, which would be a real shame. I don't want to see that much of him in one of these stories. I've said it before but if I wanted to read more about him I would read his series...

I also think Willie is kind of an idiot, although he definitely started to wise up towards the end of Echo. He is young and I tend to forget that, because he is Jamie's son he should just be perfect ;) Isn't Ian similar in age to Willie? Maybe a few years older? And he is far more Jamie-esque that Willie is... Life experiences and all that, but again, I irrationally want Willie to be just like Jamie, lol :)

I can't wait to see where Diana goes with the LJG/Claire/Jamie thing. As far as Jamie getting a taste of what it feels like to have someone interested in his wife, I disagree with you there Sharon. Jamie had sex with people while Claire was gone, and Claire had sex with Frank while she was gone. But Claire is the only one who had sex with someone else while they were in the same time. Both were extinuating circumstances- the king and LJG (although I fail to see WHY that happened but I trust that it will be explained), but nonetheless she is the one who broke that trust, not Jamie. He can't help it if people are attracted to him and it isn't like he encourages any affections. He can't help it if everyone wants to jump his bones- if I came across him I'd pounce ;)

message 12: by Amy (new)

Amy | 51 comments What I don't understand about the Laoghaire is why Claire is so OK with him "needing" to go see her. I understand why he does it (his pride) but if I were Claire, I would be a little peeved by this and I would tell him so.

The Willie situation breaks my heart- for Jamie and for Claire. I totally get why Jamie slept with Geneva, as I'm sure Claire does as well, but the simple fact remains that because they were lovers (albeit just one night) that resulted in a child. It would be very difficult to see a child who is half the husband you love and desperately missed during your years of separation and another woman, no matter why he slept with her. Jamie makes mention of this in DOA when he takes Willie fishing and I wish we the reader could be privy to a conversation between Claire and Jamie in that regard. Maybe that's coming. Claire (and thus Jamie) always hold Frank with such esteem for raising Bree as his own even though she is someone else's child. Do you think Claire would have done the same with Willie (given the chance)? I do. Heartbreaking all the same.

As far as Frank goes... I wish Claire would let him know that although yes, she did have sex with him while she was gone and yes, they were married with all that implies..... BUT, it was not a passionate and necessarily romantic kind of relationship. Jamie seems to be tortured by the idea of Frank and his relationship with Claire when I don't think he should be. I can see it with Bree (who's the better father torture), but not with Claire. And, because she has never explained that to him, he will always feel a little unsure.

message 13: by Samantha (new)

Samantha | 141 comments I think Jamie is probably tortured because Claire holds on to Frank so hard. Their whole life together, Claire has been either A) trying to return to Frank, B) trying to save his ancestors, or C) clutching to his ring for dear life.

He would have every right to assume that Claire's relationship with Frank was passionate, as their relationship is, although I think he knows that it wasn't the same based on what she has told him. She needs to learn to say more of what she is feeling. I think she assumes that Jamie knows how her marriage to Frank was, and she has told him how incredibly lonely she was, but I don't think she realizes that he doesn't really understand. That is not usual for her, since she is so in tune with Jamie... She does see that he doesn't like references to her life with Frank but doesn't really bother to correct the misunderstandings.

I feel bad for Claire re: Willie because she couldn't bear Jamie more children and she obviously wanted to. I think that is probably the worst part. They don't see Willie frequently and he isn't mentioned frequently so it isn't like her face is rubbed in it. I think she forgives Jamie entirely for being intimate with other women while she was gone. She was upset when she first heard about what happened as she kind of found out when she was hit in the face with them (his marriage and his child) but overall I think she is very understanding.

message 14: by Sharonh (last edited Jul 09, 2010 08:08AM) (new)

Sharonh | 472 comments Samantha, I hadn't thought about it like that...Jamie slept with other women when Claire was "in her own time"...that makes sense....and definitely cannot help it because he is so deliciously scrumptious...droool...and I'll hold him down for you if you'll hold him down for me! :)

Willie is a product of his raising...raised by stuffy English people who spoiled him, If he had had Jamie as a father in every respect of the word...he'd be like Jamie I am sure! I like Willie...and I think he will "get it together" sometime before the series ends!

Claire does have an awfully hard time expressing some things to Jamie...I wonder why that is when she is soooooo expressive in other ways and to other people. Maybe she is just so besotted with him herself all her thoughts fly out the window when she is with him.

I want to mention one other instance when Claire in MHO was too understanding with Jamie...it was when she was pregnant with Faith and he stayed out ALL night with the Prince and came home with the smell of other women on him and love bites all over him! I don't care that he explained it that the only way he could save his pride was to tell them he couldn't have sex with any other women was because his wife was the White Lady....he admitted to Claire that he wanted to have sex with them but didn't. I am suspect sometimes that men's "privates" have a mind of their own...I think they can control it better than they want us to believe. I was really mad at Jamie for that and I'd have made him pay for in more ways than one...Claire just caved...the wus! I mean, come on...would you have acted like Claire if YOU were pregnant and YOUR husband came home with love bites all over him? He'd have had more than love bites on him when I got through with him and it would'nt have been sweet kisses either.

message 15: by Ellen W-S (new)

Ellen W-S | 50 comments I am so enjoying this thread!
Thanks for all you discuss, there's not one of you I don't agree with....Haven't read AEITB yet, but I am hesitant since there is nothing to read by Gabaldon after!

message 16: by Sharonh (new)

Sharonh | 472 comments LOL Ellen, I am reading and re-reading the books. I got off into another "way out there" series and am loving those but for a dose of reality (did I really say that?) I go back and read more Jamie and Claire...just to keep my feet on the ground! Jamie makes my heart twitter just to think about him!

message 17: by Samantha (new)

Samantha | 141 comments Haha Sharon- I think that is a deal! (wicked grin)

I don't think Claire is great at expressing herself to anyone. Even Brianna- when Claire went back in time she wrote down everything rather than having a conversation. I think with her, actions speak louder than words and Jamie sees her very clearly.

I TOTALLY agree about the all nighter with the Prince. I was shocked she did nothing more than dump ice cold water on him. She is so fiery I would have thought her wrath would have been worse...

I re read these books constantly. I found the google books site that has previews of books so I read them all day long when I am bored at work! They have almost all of them and they pretty much skip pages or sections here and there, but it's OK because I know the books by heart. I am honestly a little embarassed admitting that ;)

I am so loving this discussion, BTW!

message 18: by Leslie (new)

Leslie (les2car) | 131 comments Just wanted to let everyone know that today there is a knew excerpt of book 8 up on Diana's blog at http://voyagesoftheartemis.blogspot.com/

message 19: by Sharonh (new)

Sharonh | 472 comments OMG! He's going through the portal! Dont y'all think? Poor baby ...all alone too? I can't wait for book 8!

message 20: by Amy (new)

Amy | 51 comments Leslie wrote: "Just wanted to let everyone know that today there is a knew excerpt of book 8 up on Diana's blog at http://voyagesoftheartemis.blogspot.com/"

Thanks and oh, holy crap... what is that about Jack Randall at the end?????

message 21: by Sharonh (new)

Sharonh | 472 comments Samantha, I have never ever reacted to fictional characters like I have these! DG is my very favorite author now...with Karen Moning running a close second! KM is more of a sci-fi author than even time travel! But, I just can't get enough of Claire and Jamie! I cannot wait to see how Jamie handles Claire and Lord John's romp in the sack. At first it bothered me that she would marry a homosexual much less bed one...but as I got to like Lord John more and more...and I love his sense of humor...it got easier for me to see how it could happen...They both love Jamie and a devastated that they think he is gone forever! I don't see how she could not feel that he was still alive though without seeing his body.

message 22: by Sharonh (new)

Sharonh | 472 comments Yeah, I saw that too....what was that???

message 23: by Samantha (new)

Samantha | 141 comments Amy wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Just wanted to let everyone know that today there is a knew excerpt of book 8 up on Diana's blog at http://voyagesoftheartemis.blogspot.com/"

Thanks and oh, holy crap... what is tha..."

I KNOW RIGHT!? I have such high hopes for the 8th book. I just hope it has more J&C than Echo did.

I want to read the Karen Moning series, although the summary of the first one didn't strike me as all that fabulous... but you all on here keep saying that they are good so I'll have to give them a shot.

Don't forget that if the ship truly sunk with Jamie on it, there wouldn't be a body to be found.

message 24: by Kimberly (new)

Kimberly (kimberly_b) | 429 comments Okay, does anyone get the Randall reference in this new excerpt? I know Diana has said that she has a bit of all of the characters, including Randall, in her, but that's all I can think of or remember...

message 25: by Leslie (new)

Leslie (les2car) | 131 comments Maybe she is just saying that she is being evil like Jack Randall by leaving us with another frustrating cliff hanger.

message 26: by Kimberly (new)

Kimberly (kimberly_b) | 429 comments Leslie--That's the only thing I can think of. Hmmm...guess that's probably it. I love reading these excerpts, but they also make me so frustrated that we have so long to wait :P

message 27: by Sharonh (new)

Sharonh | 472 comments Now I get it! Yeah, she is torturing us like BJR would!

ALL of Karen's books are really good! She is an excellent writer too but I like the Outlander series best because I guess I don't want to believe there is that much evil out there....but I sure have been lappin' the Fever series up. Good looking sexy men fairies! Woohoo! Well, they do keep your mind of Jamie...for a little while anyway. :)

message 28: by Gerri (new)

Gerri Edwards | 23 comments You want the books come to life you should take the Outlander Tour in Scotland. Well for that matter the Fae Fever series also. Brodie Castle and Fort Williams (which is a ruins). We even think we found a replica of Lallybroch without the broch. If I could figure out how to put some pictures up so you could see what the terrain was really like, you would be amazed. We also saw a small standing stones I stood in the middle and never even got a hint of Jamie. Darn!

I just listened to Voyager again and Gellis was supposedly burned but showed up in the Indies and then Gellis again was supposedly killed by Claire in the cave but Gellis is narrowing on the prophesy of the Frasers of the Lovat's ruling Scotland. DG doesn't usually start something unless she has a plan. Is Fergus really royality in France? I have so many questions...do you think maybe BJR and Frank are some how connected (you never know who is a traveler) they sure did look an awful lot alike.

message 29: by Wan (new)

Wan (wanwaddell) | 564 comments Leslie wrote: "Just wanted to let everyone know that today there is a knew excerpt of book 8 up on Diana's blog at http://voyagesoftheartemis.blogspot.com/"

OMG..OMG.. I'm been off line for a couple days looks what happen. Ahhh.. wanna read...

message 30: by Wan (new)

Wan (wanwaddell) | 564 comments Leslie wrote: "Maybe she is just saying that she is being evil like Jack Randall by leaving us with another frustrating cliff hanger."

Sharonh wrote: "Now I get it! Yeah, she is torturing us like BJR would!

ALL of Karen's books are really good! She is an excellent writer too but I like the Outlander series best because I guess I don't want t..."

Leslie, I agree with you. I think that's what she meant too-- torturing us all with a cliffhanger and ENJOYING every minutes of it.

message 31: by Angela (new)

Angela (angelah110) | 40 comments Leslie wrote: "Just wanted to let everyone know that today there is a knew excerpt of book 8 up on Diana's blog at http://voyagesoftheartemis.blogspot.com/"

Thanks Leslie, I loved "hearing" from Jem I hope his point of view is represented more in book 8. I like to think of him as future Jamie.

message 32: by Sharonh (last edited Jul 10, 2010 11:05AM) (new)

Sharonh | 472 comments For some reason I see Willie as "future Jamie" and Willie's offspring. I see Brianna too much like Claire...she holds back except when she gets mad..then she lets it rip. How old is Jem in Book 7 and 8? Maybe 7 or 8 years old? I guess he could have some of Jamie's attributes but I see him more like his own father...Roger....with a little Fraser-ness in there somewhere. I think Willie is going to surprise us...especially when he and Jamie get together without blowing up again...and I think it is coming. Willie likes Claire and I think she will intervene on Jamie's behalf...Lord John will too..he loves Jamie enough to give him his son back...and oooooh....it might be a way to soothe Jamie's ire somewhat about CLaire and Lord John bumping uglies.JMHO.

message 33: by Ellen W-S (new)

Ellen W-S | 50 comments Sharon, bumping uglies.....that's great!

message 34: by Sharonh (new)

Sharonh | 472 comments You never heard it put that way????? My own daughter and son-in-law educated me with that one! When you think about it....it fits....right? :)

message 35: by Mairicat (new)

Mairicat | 53 comments HAHA, "Bumping uglies;" that's hilarious!!

I just started reading this thread and everyone has had great comments to the original questions. I would just like to add that Jamies married Leghair and not Mary McNabb or anyone else because we had a history with L and it certainly added drama to the storyline. Mary M. was rather nondescript...and I can't see Jamie with someone like that even though I was not happy that he married L. I am not her fan I guess Jamie had to see her for some kind of closure. I do wish he hadn't worn his good shirt. Why show respect for the creature who tried to lure his wife to her death?? That's the part that stumps me, not why he went to see her but why he was so darn nice to her. L does have one redeeming quality in my eyes - she raised Marsali who is a really lovely young woman.

Regarding Claire being so "forgiving" about various things, I think she knows she holds Jamie's heart and soul and and is just very much okay with herself in general. Plus she is genuinely warm and generous and that is why she could never be less than forgiving about Willie. I'll bet she will come to love him.

Echo was not my favorite book but it was better the second time around. I'm sure DG is setting future storylines by focusing more on others and not so much on Jamie and Claire. That makes me sad!!

Oh and I LOVE the OC, can't wait for the next one. It adds such insight and answers a lot of questions.

message 36: by Sharonh (new)

Sharonh | 472 comments Yes! I love the OC too! I refer to it a lot!

Re: Leghair...I also don't understand why he thought he owed her anything when he and Claire first went back to Leoch after they married....I mean good grief! I guess Jamie is just an honorable man...any other man would have said "to heck with Leghair...I don't owe her an explanation of anything"...but he knew she had feelings for him and he didn't want to hurt her young pride I guess. I still don't like her but I love Marsali...and as much as I hate to admit it...Leghair did raise her. But at first Marsali acted like her mother...but then she came to love Claire like a mother. I still cannot stand the fact that Jamie felt he had to see Leghair after she took a lover...why should he care????? Grrrrrrrrr.

message 37: by Renee (new)

Renee (nightbird) | 334 comments Sharonh wrote: "Yes! I love the OC too! I refer to it a lot!

Re: Leghair...I also don't understand why he thought he owed her anything when he and Claire first went back to Leoch after they married....I mea..."

Because Jamie WAS married to L. And from their confrontation we learn that L loved Jamie, but she knew he didn't love her. That Claire was always there, even in their bed. Jamie knew darn well that he was the problem in the marriage. He owed it to L to go and see her. To face her. It was the least he could do.

message 38: by Renee (new)

Renee (nightbird) | 334 comments Leslie wrote: "Just wanted to let everyone know that today there is a knew excerpt of book 8 up on Diana's blog at http://voyagesoftheartemis.blogspot.com/"

Haha, is anyone surprised that Jem goes back? Of course he does. What else would be the point in putting him in the tunnel?

message 39: by Renee (new)

Renee (nightbird) | 334 comments Sharonh wrote: "Yeah, you're right Renee. She mis-read his reasons for taking her beating for her like any 16 y/o would but we all grow up and she should have gotten over it...she didn't want him in her bed when h..."

We find out the reasons that L eventually did not want Jamie. She knew Jamie did not really care for her. That Claire never really left him. Yeah, some say she could have tried, but does anyone really think he'd forget Claire no matter what L did? I don't think so. I think she just gave up.

And that's just it. You really would not be happy with some crumbs from Jamie. When you're in love you don't want crumbs you want the whole cake. And Jamie could barely give crumbs. You'd eventually stop caring or get so mad that you'd come to hate him for what he couldn't give you. I'm totally on L's side. He dangled the cake in front of her face and gave her crumbs.

message 40: by Gerri (new)

Gerri Edwards | 23 comments Leghair, funny how that name is sticking, never grew up. L figured she could have Jamie now that Claire was out of the way, like the witch trials, but she never counted on the love Jamie had for Claire and she knew he could never love her that way, she would always have the left overs, crumbs. Can't blame Jamie for that. L figured out what love was when she found her gardener, but she still didn't want Jamie happy she wanted to punish him for not loving her like he love Claire. That shows she still never grew up. Lets face it Jenny is at fault here. If she would have kept her nose out.....this wouldn't have been an issue.

message 41: by Amy (new)

Amy | 51 comments I'm still floored by Claire's reaction!!! I was looking forward to a good fight (and even better make up) when he went to see her, and in his best shirt! I know Claire knows Jamie loves her like no other but she is still a woman and remember, she slapped Jamie across the face earlier in Echo when he asked her if she was still jealous of L.... clearly she was then so why not when they reach Scotland? I still think Jamie should have been peeved at L's treatment towards Brianna and all the names she called his wife. I do agree that she raised a wonderful daughter.

message 42: by Wan (last edited Jul 12, 2010 08:42AM) (new)

Wan (wanwaddell) | 564 comments And just want to throw into the mix, what do you think -- Jenny's reaction to LJ situation going to be?

message 43: by Sharonh (new)

Sharonh | 472 comments I think Jenny has the capability of stirring the pot in that respect with Jamie. I think she is going to be trouble, but I think it will come out in the wash because Jamie loves Claire above all else and Jenny loves Jamie. I don't really like her that much right now but she may be redeemable..at least to me. HaHa.

message 44: by Kimberly (new)

Kimberly (kimberly_b) | 429 comments Sharonh--I totally agree with you about Jennie. She is going to cause some trouble!

message 45: by Gerri (new)

Gerri Edwards | 23 comments I never thought of Jenny's reaction when she finds out Claire is married to LJ. Trouble is brewing so bad we will have to ship Jenny back to Scotland.

message 46: by Kimberly (new)

Kimberly (kimberly_b) | 429 comments Heehee, yes let's ship her back! ;)

message 47: by Wan (new)

Wan (wanwaddell) | 564 comments LMAO..agree. Let's.

message 48: by Sharonh (new)

Sharonh | 472 comments Yeah, before she tries to marry him to another woman! Ship her back!

message 49: by Carolyn (new)

Carolyn | 110 comments Wan wrote: "Amy, Can't really answer your question but this is my opinion. Sorry for the length as well - fair warning -- Spoiler Alert.

1. I was wondering the same thing with Frank -- especially the part t..."

I think Claire is loyal to Frank's memory and forgives him for alot of things because a) he loves Brianna as his own and helps complete their lives which she feels in a way fulfills a promise and passion for Jamie and Jamie's wish to have the child live (and Jamie lives in a way through Brianna). Laoghrie is Jenny's doing and Jamie let himself be nudged because he really had no direction and no place...he had no idea Claire was coming back and thought maybe she needed him. Laoghrie was only in love with the idea of Jamie and never Jamie, she never knew what he was. Echo didn't have enough of Jamie and Claire, perhaps Rog and Bree, etc. will all go back due to misunderstandings... and they'll be together again and there will be more of them. They never cease to fascinate me - they truly are one and complete each other. Diana has written a lifetime fantasy of mine...a couple who truly are not afraid to be everything to each other.

message 50: by Carolyn (new)

Carolyn | 110 comments Carolyn wrote: "Wan wrote: "Amy, Can't really answer your question but this is my opinion. Sorry for the length as well - fair warning -- Spoiler Alert.

1. I was wondering the same thing with Frank -- especiall..."
Claire is also loyal to Frank b) because she feels guilty for not being able to love him because her heart is forever with Jamie and she feels she reneged on a promise to be with him always. c) When she comes back pregnant, Frank always knows, feels that she is not his, and acts out by sleeping with more women, in fact, the evidence is there that he slept with women during the war as well. Also, the love he gave Brianna was what Bree really needed, a strong role model, and he took that seriously, as well as trying to prepare her for life 200 years in the past. I believe he absolutely knew it was true, as much as he did not want to admit it. Claire was devoted to being a doctor and Bree was important to her. She and Frank never truly connected again when she came back - her soul and heart resided with jamie and she knew that she would never find that again, anywhere.

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