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Today's Issues > Separation of religion and state

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message 1: by Daisy (new)

Daisy In my opinion they FAIL at doing this. Our country is defying it's own laws!!

message 2: by Girl4beluga (new)

Girl4beluga | 3193 comments Of course it is.

message 3: by Daisy (new)

Daisy To even consider that we MIGHT have REAl separation of church and state you'd have to take 'in god we trust' off the dollar bill and 'under god' out of the pledge of allegience which you have to say every morning at school.

message 4: by Girl4beluga (new)

Girl4beluga | 3193 comments That is actually consider patriotic.

message 5: by Daisy (new)

Daisy Well I get saying the pledge, but 'under god' wasn't even in the original pledge anyway!

message 6: by Girl4beluga (new)

Girl4beluga | 3193 comments I mean who really cares don't say it if you don't want to. It is wrong but i pick and chose my battle and right now my war is on group suggestions. :P (this is a joke by the way)

message 7: by Daisy (new)

Daisy It still goes agaisnt the constitution. Especially the dollar bill I mean after you get out of high school you don't have to say it anymore but we need American money to survive in the USA. Which means you have to pay for something with unconstitutional money!

message 8: by Girl4beluga (new)

Girl4beluga | 3193 comments Well I mean why don't you agree with it you are in some form religious and practicing too.

message 9: by Daisy (new)

Daisy Because it goes against the constitution!

Plus, I don't beleive in god!

message 10: by Girl4beluga (new)

Girl4beluga | 3193 comments isn't it polytheism?

message 11: by Daisy (new)

Daisy My religion is polytheistic.

There are also Atheists, Agnostics, Satanists, Wiccans, etc.

message 12: by Girl4beluga (new)

Girl4beluga | 3193 comments But the point is it is classified as our heritage.

message 13: by Daisy (new)

Daisy No it isn't. What does that have to do with our heritage. The pledge ORIGINALLY didn't have 'in god we trust' in it. Our money had NOTHING to do with god.

message 14: by Girl4beluga (new)

Girl4beluga | 3193 comments No but America was founded on christian values and we should at least honor those who made our country great before people came and ruined it. :D

message 15: by Daisy (new)

Daisy You mean the British? Who colonized everything and killed millions of people??

message 16: by Girl4beluga (new)

Girl4beluga | 3193 comments Well yes but what group hasn't killed millions of people.

message 17: by Daisy (new)

Daisy Well...I'm kind of mad at Japan and Britan at the moment.

I'm mad a Britan mainly because of Africa...

message 18: by Girl4beluga (new)

Girl4beluga | 3193 comments Hm? Well I am always mad at the crusades, witch burnings, and being killed for being gay.

message 19: by Daisy (new)

Daisy Africa probably wouldn't be a third world contry if they hadn't colonized it. Also our 'amazing' Christian values that our country was founded on also said that being gay was a sin and that witches were evil AND that slavery was a GOOD thing!

So do we REALLY want to recognize that?

message 20: by Girl4beluga (new)

Girl4beluga | 3193 comments We all make mistakes.

message 21: by Daisy (new)

Daisy But our country is still defying it's own laws!

message 22: by Girl4beluga (new)

Girl4beluga | 3193 comments What should we do about it?

message 23: by Daisy (new)

Daisy Change it.

Rachel (aka. Kaiserin Sisi) (looney-lovegood) | 963 comments Fyopiagdt the CIA Pirate: AND that slavery was a GOOD thing!

Not all Christians believed that. Actually, a fair amount of the abolition movement was started by churches during the Second Great Awakening. True, Christianity was also used to defend it, sady. (Thank you, AP History class :D)

I don't really see it as infringing on anyone's rights. It's not the most pressing issue of our time. Some people are being denied the right to marry the person that they love, and that denial is supported by a fairly large amount of people. That's a pressing issue.

message 25: by Girl4beluga (new)

Girl4beluga | 3193 comments I agree.

message 26: by Clarence :P (new)

Clarence :P Well, things have hcanged since they printed out "IN God We Trust" on our money, and "Under God" in our pledge.
Now, there are so many more religions and people that do not have a religion, if you want a free counrty, you have to let people be able to practice what they want. In schools, if a teacher is talking about how, say, Jahova's Witness (do not know how to spell that at all), are not good people because of their religion, what sort of message would that be giving out??
Not a good one.

message 27: by Daisy (new)

Daisy Well they shouldn't have and not to mention they haven't chnaged the constitution yet

message 28: by [deleted user] (new)

The one thing all countries and nations strive for is unity. UNITED states of America. UNITED Nations. UNITED Kingdom. REPUBLIC of South Africa, REPUBLIC of Congo. In class, kids learn about tolerance and how to accept people no matter how different they are from you. They're told constantly to be 'unique yet united in accepting each other'. If we segregated communities, countries, and eventually the world because of religion or anything else, we would be totally contradicting ourselves and everything that the world has worked for will go down the drain. That's like saying 'Sugar is good for you', and then banning everythign with sugar content right after the Sugar rule has just been established. We've worked so hard to create tolerance. Religious separation and segregation would be contradictory, pointless, and...well, along with a motivation to start wars, we'd all be hypocrites.

message 29: by Unidragonfrag (new)

Unidragonfrag Tolerance and having our country run by by a single religious belief are two totally different things.

Religion should have no say in our judiciary system.

message 30: by [deleted user] (new)

Actually, America was founded on values of freedom of religion- Washington, in his writings, deliberately avoided biblical language, and Thomas Jefferson, as president of the United States and not just as a private citizen, stated that the first amendment creates a "high wall of separation" between church and state. So the point of heritage is rather a lost one. I agree "under God" should be removed from the pledge of allegiance.

message 31: by AA (new)

AA | 105 comments Rose wrote: "Jefferson even wrote a Bible (known as the Jefferson Bible) in which he got rid of all of Jesus' miracles because, well, they made no sense. >->"

XD That's fucking awesome. Where can I find this?

message 33: by AA (new)

AA | 105 comments Thanks xD

message 34: by Andrew Eddy (new)

Andrew Eddy | 2 comments To propose that the founding fathers desired separation of Church and State is complete hogwash. That term actually came from a letter Jefferson wrote to a Baptist Church promising the Church protection from the State -not the other way around. In fact almost all of our founding Fathers were devoute Christians and they showed it. In fact it was often commented that when George Washington was not fighting he was praying.
Here are some quotes to show you what I mean:
George Washington
1st U.S. President

"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.

John Adams
2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."
--Adams wrote this in a letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776.

Thomas Jefferson
3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

John Hancock
1st Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."
--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.

Benjamin Franklin
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Unites States Constitution

"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;--Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790.

Samuel Adams
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Father of the American Revolution

"And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace."
--As Governor of Massachusetts, Proclamation of a Day of Fast, March 20, 1797.

James Madison
4th U.S. President

"Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ."
--America's Providential History, p. 93.

James Monroe
5th U.S. President

"When we view the blessings with which our country has been favored, those which we now enjoy, and the means which we possess of handing them down unimpaired to our latest posterity, our attention is irresistibly drawn to the source from whence they flow. Let us then, unite in offering our most grateful acknowledgments for these blessings to the Divine Author of All Good."
--Monroe made this statement in his 2nd Annual Message to Congress, November 16, 1818.

John Quincy Adams
6th U.S. President

"The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made 'bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God' (Isaiah 52:10)."
--Life of John Quincy Adams, p. 248.

William Penn
Founder of Pennsylvania

"I do declare to the whole world that we believe the Scriptures to contain a declaration of the mind and will of God in and to those ages in which they were written; being given forth by the Holy Ghost moving in the hearts of holy men of God; that they ought also to be read, believed, and fulfilled in our day; being used for reproof and instruction, that the man of God may be perfect. They are a declaration and testimony of heavenly things themselves, and, as such, we carry a high respect for them. We accept them as the words of God Himself."
--Treatise of the Religion of the Quakers, p. 355.

Roger Sherman
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and United States Constitution

"I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the same in substance equal in power and glory. That the scriptures of the old and new testaments are a revelation from God, and a complete rule to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy him. That God has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass, so as thereby he is not the author or approver of sin. That he creates all things, and preserves and governs all creatures and all their actions, in a manner perfectly consistent with the freedom of will in moral agents, and the usefulness of means. That he made man at first perfectly holy, that the first man sinned, and as he was the public head of his posterity, they all became sinners in consequence of his first transgression, are wholly indisposed to that which is good and inclined to evil, and on account of sin are liable to all the miseries of this life, to death, and to the pains of hell forever.

I believe that God having elected some of mankind to eternal life, did send his own Son to become man, die in the room and stead of sinners and thus to lay a foundation for the offer of pardon and salvation to all mankind, so as all may be saved who are willing to accept the gospel offer: also by his special grace and spirit, to regenerate, sanctify and enable to persevere in holiness, all who shall be saved; and to procure in consequence of their repentance and faith in himself their justification by virtue of his atonement as the only meritorious cause.

I believe a visible church to be a congregation of those who make a credible profession of their faith in Christ, and obedience to him, joined by the bond of the covenant.

I believe that the souls of believers are at their death made perfectly holy, and immediately taken to glory: that at the end of this world there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a final judgement of all mankind, when the righteous shall be publicly acquitted by Christ the Judge and admitted to everlasting life and glory, and the wicked be sentenced to everlasting punishment."
--The Life of Roger Sherman, pp. 272-273.
Benjamin Rush
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

"The gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations!"
--The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, pp. 165-166.

"Christianity is the only true and perfect religion, and that in proportion as mankind adopts its principles and obeys its precepts, they will be wise and happy."
--Essays, Literary, Moral, and Philosophical, published in 1798.

"I know there is an objection among many people to teaching children doctrines of any kind, because they are liable to be controverted. But let us not be wiser than our Maker.

If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into all the world would have been unnecessary. The perfect morality of the gospel rests upon the doctrine which, though often controverted has never been refuted: I mean the vicarious life and death of the Son of God."
--Essays, Literary, Moral, and Philosophical, published in 1798.

John Witherspoon
Signer of the Declaration of Independence, Clergyman and President of Princeton University

"While we give praise to God, the Supreme Disposer of all events, for His interposition on our behalf, let us guard against the dangerous error of trusting in, or boasting of, an arm of flesh ... If your cause is just, if your principles are pure, and if your conduct is prudent, you need not fear the multitude of opposing hosts.

What follows from this? That he is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down profanity and immorality of every kind.

Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy of his country."
--Sermon at Princeton University, "The Dominion of Providence over the Passions of Men," May 17, 1776.

Alexander Hamilton
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."
--Famous American Statesmen, p. 126.

Continued in next Post.

message 35: by Andrew Eddy (new)

Andrew Eddy | 2 comments Patrick Henry
Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
--The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii.

"The Bible ... is a book worth more than all the other books that were ever printed."
--Sketches of the Life and Character of Patrick Henry, p. 402.

John Jay
1st Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court and President of the American Bible Society

"By conveying the Bible to people thus circumstanced, we certainly do them a most interesting kindness. We thereby enable them to learn that man was originally created and placed in a state of happiness, but, becoming disobedient, was subjected to the degradation and evils which he and his posterity have since experienced.

The Bible will also inform them that our gracious Creator has provided for us a Redeemer, in whom all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; that this Redeemer has made atonement "for the sins of the whole world," and thereby reconciling the Divine justice with the Divine mercy has opened a way for our redemption and salvation; and that these inestimable benefits are of the free gift and grace of God, not of our deserving, nor in our power to deserve."
--In God We Trust—The Religious Beliefs and Ideas of the American Founding Fathers, p. 379.

"In forming and settling my belief relative to the doctrines of Christianity, I adopted no articles from creeds but such only as, on careful examination, I found to be confirmed by the Bible."
--American Statesman Series, p. 360.

America was founded by strong Christians and the current veiw of separation of Church and State is one which would shock these great men.

message 36: by Cody (new)

Cody (rolinor) | 441 comments And you are completely and utterly wrong which I can prove in one quote but I will use more.

I would like the site this website as I did copy and past quite a bit from it

Let's start with that first quote obviously.

The 1796 Treaty with Tripoli states that the United States was "not in any sense founded on the Christian religion". This was not an idle statement meant to satisfy muslims-- they believed it and meant it. This treaty was written under the presidency of George Washington and signed under the presidency of John Adams.

Most of the Founders were Deists, which is to say they thought the universe had a creator, but that he does not concern himself with the daily lives of humans, and does not directly communicate with humans, either by revelation or by sacred books. They spoke often of God, (Nature's God or the God of Nature), but this was not the God of the bible. They did not deny that there was a person called Jesus, and praised him for his benevolent teachings, but they flatly denied his divinity. Some people speculate that if Charles Darwin had lived a century earlier, the Founding Fathers would have had a basis for accepting naturalistic origins of life, and they would have been atheists.

Thomas Jefferson quotes

"The hocus-pocus phantasm of a God like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads, had its birth and growth in the blood of thousands and thousands of martyrs." -- Letter to James Smith, December 8, 1822

"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet the one is not three, and the three are not one: to divide mankind by a single letter into ["consubstantialists and like-substantialists"]. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests. Sweep away their gossamer fabrics of factitious religion, and they would catch no more flies. We should all then, like the quakers, live without an order of priests, moralise for ourselves, follow the oracle of conscience, and say nothing about what no man can understand, nor therefore believe; for I suppose belief to be the assent of the mind to an intelligible proposition." -- Jefferson's Letter to John Adams, August 22, 1813

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human errors." -- Jefferson's letter to John Adams, April 11 1823

"But while this syllabus is meant to place the character of Jesus in its true light, as no imposter himself, but a great reformer of the Hebrew code of religion, it is not to be understood that I am with him in all his doctrines. I am a materialist; he takes the side of spiritualism; he preaches the efficacy of repentance towards forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it." -- letter to William Short, April 13, 1820; Definition of a Materialist:

Benjamin Franklin quotes

"I think vital religion has always suffered when orthodoxy is more regarded than virtue. The scriptures assure me that at the last day we shall not be examined on what we thought but what we did."
- letter to his father, 1738

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it."
- "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion", 1728

"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity." - Works, Vol. VII, p. 75

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." -in Poor Richard's Almanac

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." -in Poor Richard's Almanac

John Adams

"The question before the human race is, whether the God of Nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?"

"Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?" -letter to Thomas Jefferson

"Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1,500 years?"

You're wrong, completely and utterly wrong. It only takes a cursory look at history, a simple google search.

message 37: by [deleted user] (new)

I believe in picking your battle. A few lines in the pledge or on the dollar bill don't prevent me from practicing my own personal faith system, so I figure It doesn't matter to much either way.

message 38: by Ember Skye (new)

Ember Skye You know one thing you can do about the "In god we trust" on the dollar bill? You can take a sharpie marker and cover these words on say, a $50 bill, then go to a bank and exchange that bill for say, five tens, and cover the words on those, and then exchange THOSE, and it can just keep going

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