Christian Support Group :) discussion

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message 1: by Keara (last edited Apr 18, 2010 01:57PM) (new)

Keara (kearachristine) I like ranting on my blog - I admit it. Below is a post that I put up recently. Read it and fix your attitudes.

So I'm in this group on GoodReads.com called The Christian Support Group. In the group's description, it says "Are you tired of all the Unchristian things being said on the internet right now? Blahblahblah... Join even if you aren't Christian! RULES... Yaddayadda... Be kind to and respect others." So this girl - who shall remain unnamed - makes a thread named "Atheists". She and all the other members in this group go off on this never-ending tirade about how stupid Atheists, evolution, The Big Bang Theory, etc. are. I, personally, am a Christian. I also believe in evolution, so I was offended by this. According to all these people, anyone who believes in that is stupid. I don't think I'm stupid, do you? Uh... No? Well, I've always been taught that the entire world is looking at me and judging my religion, Mormonism, based upon my actions. The majority of this group is Catholic or Baptist. Most of the time, they're really kind and fun-loving. There's even a thread dedicated to people they wish everyone else to include in their prayers. Now they were really rude when asked about their views on gays, abortion, Atheists, scientific theories, etc. Do you think any of these comments are even remotely Christlike? No? I believe in order to be Christian, you must first be like Christ. I don't that He would knock down others' ideas without first consdering them. I thought long and hard about global warming before I knocked it. After all of this, I'm embarrassed to be a Christian. I now see why others have such bad opinions on us.

Honestly, you say be kind. You say non-Christians are allowed. What if an Atheist came in here and saw your comments? A Gay? A Muslim or Buddhist? Would you still be mean? By your attitudes towards them, it seems that you think they're of the Devil or something! Why are you acting like that? They are lost, not evil! THEY ARE HUMAN, JUST AS YOU AND I ARE!


message 2: by Sandy (new)

Sandy (sandycrow) | 373 comments Mod
Okay, seriously, you have to realize if you're Mormon, you're not a Christian. If you're a Christian, you're not a Mormon. I'm not slamming anyone here, just saying there is a BIG difference between the two.

But it's a discussion, so I'm going to discuss this. You say you believe that in order to be a Christian, you must first be like Christ. In that case, no one can be Christian.

"All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." (I'm bad with references, but that's somewhere in Romans.)

"All we like sheep have gone astray. Each of us has turned to his own way, but the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all." (Isaiah 53 something)

"For in thy sight no man living is righteous." (Psalm 140-something—if you want the exact verses and quotes, I'll get them for you.)

We are ALL sinful—no one can be like Christ. That's the reason He died for us: because all of us deserve death, and none of us are perfect. Jesus is the only one who could perfectly obey the law.


message 3: by Keara (new)

Keara (kearachristine) Mormons believe in Christ. Therefore - Christian.

And you try to be like Christ, not literally be EXACTLY ON HIS LEVEL OF PERFECTION!


message 4: by Sandy (new)

Sandy (sandycrow) | 373 comments Mod
Wrong. We believe in a different Christ.

Please briefly explain your beliefs when it comes to salvation so I can talk about this in more than vague terms?

But we can't just try to be good on our own—are greatest efforts to change ourselves are fruitless.


message 5: by Keara (new)

Keara (kearachristine) It's the same Christ. The Messiah, correct?

*sigh* You know how many Sunday lessons I've had on The Plan of Salvation? Dozens and they've all been different. It would take forever to explain them to you.

We basically try our best to be like Christ. Not perfect, just worthy.


message 6: by Keara (new)

Keara (kearachristine) Why would "your" Christ be the "correct" one anyways?


message 7: by Sandy (last edited Apr 18, 2010 03:11PM) (new)

Sandy (sandycrow) | 373 comments Mod
Okay, at first glance it's the same Christ, Son of Mary, born on Christmas (supposedly—not that we know the date for sure). But we have different views of Him. So different, it's almost pointless to call them the same person.

Well, I've spent time typing out reeeeaaaally long comments before. If you don't want to take the time to do this, don't bother continuing this discussion. Because otherwise it's just a one-sided argument.

How good do you have to be to be "worthy?"


message 8: by Keara (new)

Keara (kearachristine) You know what, this isn't about our Christ. Or our views. This is about you guys being jerks when you claim to be kind, caring people. I'm done with this. Shape up if you want, but otherwise I'm not coming back. Not like you'd care, but I'm telling my friends to leave.


message 9: by Sandy (new)

Sandy (sandycrow) | 373 comments Mod
We don't claim to be kind, caring people. For instance, I'm scum. I deserve to go to hell. I sin every day. I'm worthless. I am nothing like Christ.


message 10: by Laura, I can do all things through Christ Who strengthens me . . . (last edited Apr 18, 2010 03:20PM) (new)

Laura | 136 comments Mod
actually i have to disagree. i never said gay people or atheists are stupid - in fact i said we should not hate these people or call them stupid, because any of us are capable or any sin. so by saying 'According to all these people, anyone who believes in that is stupid.' you are falsely accusing me.

now, yes, i did say abortion was murder. i firmly believe that, and i just cannot before God see how it is right to kill an innocent baby. but that is different from me saying 'people who do abortion are stupid'. people who get abortions are not stupid. i can understand why some of them would want to - i should have said that. maybe i was too strong in what i said. i don't know. but if, for instance, you have sex before you're married and you get pregnant, the baby should not die because of a sin you committed. i think that is wrong, and if you cannot take care of a child for whatever reason you shouldn't have had the sex.

and i don't think we believe the same things about Christ. please correct me if i'm wrong and you don't believe this, because i don't want to say you believe something you don't, but i was looking up mormonism and these are some things i found:

"Mormonism says: God is the Supreme Being of the universe, but he has not always held that position. He gradually attained godhood by living a perfectly righteous life.

Mormonism says: Jesus and Satan, like the rest of us, were spirit brothers and sons of God before the spirit of Jesus was given a body by Mary in Bethlehem. The Mormon “Book of Moses” presents Satan and Jesus as contending for the privilege of taking a body of flesh in order to become the redeemer, with Jesus winning the contest."

is this what you believe, or do you believe something else? i'm not trying to be smart; i just genuinely want to know.


message 11: by Sandy (last edited Apr 18, 2010 08:09PM) (new)

Sandy (sandycrow) | 373 comments Mod
Seriously, Grammar Nazi, your attitude is a lot worse than ours. We're not going to try to change, just so we can please someone who's leaving our group in a huff.


message 12: by Savannah (new)

Savannah Your Friendly Neighborhood Grammar Nazi wrote: "Mormons believe in Christ. Therefore - Christian.

And you try to be like Christ, not literally be EXACTLY ON HIS LEVEL OF PERFECTION!"


so on your accord of thinking these would be true:

if someone said- i believe in gays so I'm gay, I believe in Jews so I'm jew... (i'm hoping you get the point.)


message 13: by Savannah (new)

Savannah But explain the morman beliefs of Jesus Christ.


Chiara  ♪*CheesecakeLover*♪ | 684 comments I have not said anything against atheism!


Chiara  ♪*CheesecakeLover*♪ | 684 comments btw- Christians aren't supposed to believe in gay marriage and abortion? Whoops, my bad I guess I'm not a Christian.

Explain!


message 16: by Sandy (new)

Sandy (sandycrow) | 373 comments Mod
Wait, Christianity isn't just a name you can call yourself if you think a few things are wrong…


Chiara  ♪*CheesecakeLover*♪ | 684 comments What! No! I'm just saying that I believe in gay marriage and disagree on abortion. Is that wrong?


message 18: by Sandy (last edited Apr 22, 2010 12:17PM) (new)

Sandy (sandycrow) | 373 comments Mod
Well, if you're a Christian you should know that gay marriage - or just being gay in general - is wrong.


Chiara  ♪*CheesecakeLover*♪ | 684 comments But it's not!


Chiara  ♪*CheesecakeLover*♪ | 684 comments We've already discussed this on the gay marriage topic- haven't we?


message 21: by Sandy (new)

Sandy (sandycrow) | 373 comments Mod
Do you believe in the Bible?


Chiara  ♪*CheesecakeLover*♪ | 684 comments Yes, I do- well most of it. I am not a "fundamentalist Christian" I think that some of the Bible is metaphorical. But to answer your question- yes, I believe in the Bible


message 23: by Sandy (last edited Apr 22, 2010 01:19PM) (new)

Sandy (sandycrow) | 373 comments Mod
Well, yes, some of it is metaphorical.

Well, it says that homosexuality is a sin numerous times, and "homosexuality" is constantly listed as a form of impurity.

To name a few:

• Genesis 18:22
• Leviticus 20:13
• Romans 1:26-32
• 1 Corinthians 6:9-10


message 24: by Sandy (last edited Apr 27, 2010 01:18PM) (new)

Sandy (sandycrow) | 373 comments Mod
Um… thank you for the sermon… but Keara is the one being mean. We didn't all just decide, "Let's have a nasty argument!" We haven't just been calling names and hurting people, like you're making it sound. Keara (Your Friendly Neighborhood Grammar Nazi) was upset because… well first of all, she's not a Christian. I suppose you're going to tell me I shouldn't have told her the truth? We were being patient with her. Seriously, she's the one who just decided to leave in a huff.

That being said, you are completely, 100% WRONG about opinions. I think roses smell better than lilacs. That's my opinion, and if anyone disagrees, whatever, neither of us is right. But when it comes to evolution and important things that matter, like SALVATION, which is what we were arguing about, it is not a matter of opinion. We cannot make ourselves worthy before a just and holy God. The Bible makes this clear. It is not an opinion, but a fact, one that I was telling Keara about. Her beliefs aren't opinions either; they are just… wrong.

Let me tell you this, Spectra, I have never liked being told basically most of what you said when I know the person saying it is quite uninformed. You are admonishing us for returning to a sinful lifestyle? I mean, duh, I still sin, but what I said to Keara was not sinful. Or anything we said to her. It was almost sharing the gospel, even. Although a more acurate way to put that would be "casting pearls before swine."

One more thing: It is not judgemental to discuss something like this. Once again, I wasn't saying, "Keara you are such an IDIOT for liking lilacs!!!" If you say someone is wrong about something so petty, then yes, that would be judgemental. But as a Christian, I know I am right about some things. Maybe not the relatively minor denominational differences, but I know I am right about salvation. Keara's view of this happens to be wrong, and by pointing that out, I am not judging. God is the judge of all things, and His word is what tells me this, that we can never make ourselves worthy. It's something I know to be true. And it matters.


message 25: by Laura, I can do all things through Christ Who strengthens me . . . (new)

Laura | 136 comments Mod
i feel better now - i've been leaving long comments all over this group's discussions and now i'm not along LOL ^ ^

i know you weren't trying to be insulting to anyone ;)

i definitely agree that calling someone an idiot because they are, for instance, gay or getting an abortion or an atheist, is very wrong because what makes us better than them? were it not for God's grace we could be in the exact same position.

i think that if someone does something that is clearly wrong that we should definitely tell them that right away - but we have to do it kindly. i think some of us on here have reacted on emotions - we've been too abrupt or angry or whatever, which is all too easy to do. and i'm not trying to be judgmental with that statement either, so i hope y'all don't take it that away. i also don't think it is anyone's intent on here to have an "out-to-get-you" or judgmental attitude either.

lolz i've probably been totally confusing in my comment. ah, well. sorry, y'all, but if you haven't figured out from my previous comments that i speak - or rather comment lol - in a confusing way, heads up.

:D

aaaack i gotta go to bible study now, but i'll try to comment and tell what i believe about salvation tonight ;)


message 26: by Sandy (last edited Apr 27, 2010 09:37PM) (new)

Sandy (sandycrow) | 373 comments Mod
Asking her to share what she believes was completely necessary - how am I supposed to discuss it without knowing that? If I didn't it would be a one-sided argument.

About interpretations of the Bible, there are some passages that can be interpretted differently and not wander too far from the truth. But it isn't an interpretation of one verse we were arguing about. It was the whole message of the gospel. Her beliefs aren't even biblical - where does the Bible say that we need to make ourselves worthy? Nowhere. It does, however, say multiple times that we can't. Our differences aren't that we interpret the Bible differently, but that we interpret the Bible, and she interprets the teaching of man. The Bible is actually the least authoritative book in Mormonism. They follow man-written things as well, and place them before the Bible. The link I posted in another discussion is helpful in understanding their religion - you can probably find it.

Oh sorry 'bout my "sermon" comment… I do post stuff like that as well, so I'm not one to talk.

Ditto what Raven said about posting a view of salvation later - why don't you explain your beliefs first since I won't be on until tomorrow afternoon?


message 27: by Sandy (new)

Sandy (sandycrow) | 373 comments Mod
Jesus is God's son. Mary is his mother, but that's all(virgin when she conceived Jesus). I don't pray to her or anyting. (check)

Jesus was the only perfect person. (check)

Anyone and everyone CAN be saved. not that they will, cause some simply refuse, but they have that possiblility. (check)

I don't believe in CAlvinism. (which part?)

Jesus died on the cross to save us from our sins. Everyone who was, is, and will be. (check)

We must admit that we are sinners and believe that Jesus is God's only son who died to save us. (check)

When we accept Him into our heart, the Holy Spirit comes to live in us. (check)

Baptism is a symbol of Jesus' burial and resurection. Also, a symbol of putting the old self to rest and raising anew in Christ. We become a part of his family. God's children. (I guess… unless you're saying that being baptized MAKES you His children?)

Jesus died and was raised on the third day. (check)

Sorry I never responded either, I could have just as easily done this :)


message 28: by austen (new)

austen (oncebef0re) I agree with all that.


message 29: by Sandy (new)

Sandy (sandycrow) | 373 comments Mod
Oh yeah, you basically already said baptism is a SYMBOL - somehow I missed that :D

Sorry I'm dumb; what's predestination?


message 30: by Laura, I can do all things through Christ Who strengthens me . . . (new)

Laura | 136 comments Mod
as calvinists we believe that before God created the world he predestined - chose - foreordained - those who would be saved, or come to know him.

from dictionary.com: "the decree of God by which certain souls are foreordained to salvation."

pretty much what i already said . . . lol . . . x)

aaaaaanyway yeah.


message 31: by Sandy (new)

Sandy (sandycrow) | 373 comments Mod
Isn't there a verse that says that though? Like, more than one?


message 32: by austen (new)

austen (oncebef0re) As far as I know, the problem is that most Calvinists take that to mean that we can do just about anything once we're saved...which, technically, is true...but to show our love for Jesus and respect for His will and to be good witnesses to the world, we should obey Him.

*sighs* That was confusing. I desperately hope I didn't misstate something there, but it's entirely likely. How about this: "If you love Me, keep my commandments." Predestination, taken in such a way, doesn't uphold that.


message 33: by Sandy (new)

Sandy (sandycrow) | 373 comments Mod
Well… that's kind of hard to reply to. All I can think of after a minute of staring at the screen is basically the opposite of what you said. Calvinists don't take that to mean that we can do just about anything once we're saved. Sorry - way to be blunt, Sandy - but… it's… just… kinda… not… true…

I believe in predestination, mostly because, like you, I know God has a plan for everything. We may not be able to see or understand it, but we know that whatever happens was in God's control. The same way He doesn't randomly decide to let someone die, He doesn't spontaneously decide to save someone because the circumstances seem right. If He's omnipotent, He knows exactly what will happen, He knows what we need before we ask Him, etc., then He must know who are/will be saved.


message 34: by Laura, I can do all things through Christ Who strengthens me . . . (last edited Jun 09, 2010 12:45PM) (new)

Laura | 136 comments Mod
i'm a bit confused, pansy (but don't worry - i get confused easily no matter who it is telling me something :D) - do you mean that calvinists tend to think, "okay, i'm saved now and since my salvation was set at the beginning of the world i can do whatever i stinking well please!"?

coz if you are saying that then, yes, i'm sure people struggle with that - though i don't believe that i can do whatever i want. i believe that even if my salvation was set at the beginning of the world i still have to obey God even though i'm saved.

if that makes sense ^ ^


message 35: by Sandy (new)

Sandy (sandycrow) | 373 comments Mod
Once you are saved and love God, you WANT to obey Him. If someone is like, "Well, I'll stick this ticket to Heaven in my pocket, then put on the old self again, la-de-da…" they they could just be someone who calls themself a Christian Calvinist but may not actually be saved.

I mean… I know those people exist… I was sorta one of them… :/


Chiara  ♪*CheesecakeLover*♪ | 684 comments what's a calvanist? (gosh i'm not very good at knowing what you're talking about am i?)


message 37: by Laura, I can do all things through Christ Who strengthens me . . . (new)

Laura | 136 comments Mod
here, this was one of my earlier posts:

"2737466 as calvinists we believe that before God created the world he predestined - chose - foreordained - those who would be saved, or come to know him.

from dictionary.com: "the decree of God by which certain souls are foreordained to salvation."

pretty much what i already said . . . lol . . . x)

aaaaaanyway yeah."


message 38: by Sandy (new)

Sandy (sandycrow) | 373 comments Mod
Romans 8:30
Ephesians 1:5
Ephesians 1:11


Chiara  ♪*CheesecakeLover*♪ | 684 comments oh i c! tnx- now i can read the rest of your conversation while understanding what you're talking about! yey!


message 40: by Sandy (new)

Sandy (sandycrow) | 373 comments Mod
Ha ha you're welcome on Raven's behalf :)


message 43: by austen (new)

austen (oncebef0re) I didn't mean to cross anyone there. I should probably just have kept my mouth shut. I do believe in predestination (as in, the way you expressed it -- God has a plan for everything, He knows exactly what is going to happen because He's in control, etc.), but I don't take it to the lengths that some people do (not anyone in this group as far as I know). I'm not judging Calvinists or slapping a label on them as a group. I don't even know which denomination I am! I just believe in all the basics (like that list of Spectra's), and don't honestly know if my beliefs, outside of that, would exactly match any denomination. Don't worry, I don't believe anything weird! ;)


message 44: by Sandy (new)

Sandy (sandycrow) | 373 comments Mod
:) It's okay. My little predestination argument was half-directed to Spectra anyway.


Rachel (aka. Kaiserin Sisi) (looney-lovegood) | 200 comments We all believe in the same Jesus. We just all think different things about him. Even Muslims believe in the same Jesus we believe in; they just view him as a prophet, not as God. We all just see Jesus differently. :D


Chiara  ♪*CheesecakeLover*♪ | 684 comments Yup, yup. Its like the six blind men and the elephant....


Rachel (aka. Kaiserin Sisi) (looney-lovegood) | 200 comments Chiara *♥☺Eat cheesecake.....NOW☺♥* wrote: "Yup, yup. Its like the six blind men and the elephant...."

I love that analogy! :D I never thought of that before. :)


Chiara  ♪*CheesecakeLover*♪ | 684 comments Lol; there's also the 'everyone's climbing up the mountain by a different route- but it's always the same summit' anology!


message 49: by Sandy (new)

Sandy (sandycrow) | 373 comments Mod
Chiara *♥☺Eat cheesecake.....NOW☺♥* wrote: "Lol; there's also the 'everyone's climbing up the mountain by a different route- but it's always the same summit' anology!"

But some of them are gonna reach a dead end, right?


Chiara  ♪*CheesecakeLover*♪ | 684 comments No. They just reach the top by a different way- God's still at the top, they just don't know he's there.


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