fiction files redux discussion
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Stieg Larsson's Millennium Trilogy
I've only heard of The Dragon Tattoo. I might check these out.
I read the 1st two books and liked the 1st one better than the second one - I thought the second one was over the top as far as the Salander character and what happens to her in the bookI'm not going to read the 3rd one
I liked Playing With Fire by Henning Mankell much better - also a Swedish writer
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In fact the only Swede I have read is Par Lagerkvist. I think I will stick with him for now as I haven't made it through all of his books yet.
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These aren't books with lots and lots of description--they are very focused on the characters and what they are thinking and feeling and how they interact. No long descriptions of setting. There's a journalistic, Hemingway-esque feel to the sentences that makes them rather easy to read--not like wading through Conrad or Melville (both of whom I like).
I'd encourage you to read the second book. Some of it is a bit over the top, I'll agree...although if I want pure realism, I'll just pay more attention at my day job.
Chris wrote: "Martyn, I read both and liked both. I agree with you on Lisbeth Salander--she's an odd, odd character. I can see what you're saying about the translation--not that I know Swedish at all, but ther..."I do agree, Chris, regarding the lack of descriptive writing...it is very straight forward and journalistic. I do intend on reading the second book...and the third!
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I actually do think the novels have been poorly edited in the English translations. The amount of time the characters drink coffee is absurd...they'd probably spend the entire novels on the toilet. Imagine if it was a British crime drama and the characters drank tea every second paragraph...it would ridiculous:
"Yes, Martin Vanger, you're a serial killer...let's have some tea, I'll put the kettle on."
And there's a line in Dragon Tattoo where Blomkvist drives somewhere and Larsson writes he stops off for a coffee and sandwich...what purpose does that serve at all? There's lot of extraneous stuff that needed an editor with some balls.
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You should read John Ajvide LIndqvist, Let the Right One In. It is very very dark and nasty vampire book!
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My wife made the same point when she read it. It's a bit like cataloging every single time a character goes to the bathroom--maybe it's realistic, but it's not necessary.
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Patrick wrote: "I wondered what Larsson makes of the spread of Islamic fascism in his home country...I have been reading While Europe Slept and found out that we don't really have France anymore and that it is one..."???
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besides - the french issues with islam also go back quite a ways - they have their colonial past to blame for it (read a little about the back ground of that Camus guy for some insight)
and in any event Im not altogether sure we ever wanted those froggy frog frogs on our side - as you pointed out they're by nature very unionist, socialist and quite snooty about their cuisine, language and beverages plus they're prone to strike in the streets at the drop of a hat
anywhoo - while you're teetering there on your paranoiac islamaphobe ledge you should try Jihad vs McWorld by Benjamin Barber
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http://video.google.com/videoplay?doc...#
it parallels the rise of neoconservatism in the states with the rise of islamism in the middle east, and how they were both influenced by western philosophy.
Patrick wrote: "Sorry. I was reading Bruce Bawer's While Europe Slept and was really bewildered by how we Americans lost France as a partner in Europe to the slowly growing Islamic fascism. It is one of the import..."Pat, dude, this doesn't make the blindest bit of sense. At all.
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Martyn, I think you meant not the slightest bit of sense. I am deaf, not blind. :)
Anyway, after a silly digression: I've started The Girl Who Played With Fire.
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I have The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo and The Girl who Played With Fire lined up for the summer. I hope they're page turners.
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i found the second to be much the same as the first: the characters are interesting, the polemics are blatant, and they are compulsive reading, page turners, and i want to know what happens when i read them. but while i read, i am not for a second admiring the style of the prose. the stories are engaging but erratic: in the first, there's this old policeman right at the beginning of the book, corresponding with henrik vanger, and it seemed to me he'd be a real part of the book, only he wasn't. in the second, we spend a LOT of time meeting characters with lisbeth salander we will never meet again. her interest in the business man and his wife, a kind of red herring, and we don't get into the crux of it all until well into the book.
i often complain about the breadth of the works of popular fiction heroes, like king, and rowling, and i'll reiterate that criticism here: i would hate to see the length of the original manuscript on these works because i would bet dollars to doughnuts that the editors have cut a handful of pages only. i fear this is some marketing idea that people will feel they're getting a better bargain (more bang for their buck) or even smarter if their books are thicker so we're going to be lax in our editorial standards for the benefit of the bottom line. i think it's a huge mistake. popular fiction writers can tell a great story, and inhibiting their ability to tell it well by letting them blab on, really upsets me. :)
and i really have to say after reading this second one that i'm convinced that the translation can't be blamed for the failings of this series: i've no doubt being swedish and reading it would make it resonate more. as i point out above, this writing isn't about style: it isn't literature. i am tempted to fault the english translation for not taking out things that wouldn't appeal to north american audience, or an english one? i noted previously how unhappy i was with the detailed computer specs in dragon tattoo, and my distaste for the use of brand names increased with the second book, again with remarking on the G4 processor and 17 inch screen on an ibook too many times, and then even more disturbingly the long paragraphs regarding the purchase and furnishing of a new apartment with run-down of every piece of furniture complete with ikea style name. this really really rankles with me.
first of all it dates the book (do you think somebody reading this book in even ten years will find these details relevant, or even familiar? will ikea still be producing the malm line? will G4 be confused with g-force?), and second it goes against every tradition of editing ingrained in me: i am vehemently opposed to the use of brand names in books, and would avoid almost every one if possible, but the most iconic: a kleenex, or coke (i'll also say that in real life i usually say tissue, or cola -- yes, i'm pedantic that way, :P) if i was the editor of these books, i'd be more inclined to take out these useless references than i would the habitual reference to the ritual of taking coffee. but perhaps swedish life revolves around brand names too, and so somehow, all this is relevant after all? the only brand name i wanted to know was the one with this bacon pie salander was eating, only to be denied it -- i do know she eats billy pan pizzas though. perhaps larsson did not have a favoured brand of bacon pie? i can't deny i was most intrigued and stopped reading to look it up on the internet. turns out it varies from a quiche in not having dairy in: according to wikipedia traditionally bacon and onion only. since i love cheese, and hate the slimy onion unless it is puréed and its revolting texture eradicated, it appears this is not the dish for me. bacon quiche FTW!!!
(p.s. i think i am just going to copy and paste this into my review for the second book since i blabbed on for so long. but this is not a published work, so i feel fine about it really. :)
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...She drove to IKEA at Kungens Kurva and spent three hours browsing through the merchandise, writing down the items numbers she needed. She made a few quick decisions.
She bought two Karlanda sofas with sand-coloured upholstery, five Poang chairs, two round side tables of clear-lacquered birch, a Svansbo coffee table, and several Lack occasional tables. From the storage department she ordered two Ivar combination storage units and two Bonde bookshelves, a TV stand, and a Magiker unit with doors. She settled on a Pax Nexus three-door wardrobe and two small Malm bureaus.
She spent a long time selecting a bed, and decided on a Hemnes bed frame with mattress and bedside tables. To be on the safe side, she also bought a Lillehammer bed to put in the spare room. She didn't plan on having any guests, but since she had a guestroom she might as well furnish it.
Tbe bathroom in her new apartment was already equipped with a medicine cabinet, towel storage, and a washing machine the previous owners had left behind. All she had to buy was a cheap laundry basket.
What she did need though, was kitchen furniture. After some thought she decided on a Rasfors kitchen table of solid beechwood with a tabletop of tempered glass and four colourful kitchen chairs.
She also needed furniture for her office. She looked at some improbable "workstations" with ingenious cabinets for storing computers and keyboards. In the end she shook her head and ordered an ordinary desk, the Galant, in beech veneer with an angled top and rounded corners, and a large filing cabinet. She took a long time choosing an office chair--in which she no doubt would spend many hours--and chose one of the most expensive options, the Verksam.
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did you really enjoy reading that? did you think it was all necessary? i can vouch for the fact that none of this information really adds to the book, and that nobody falls against the Galant and hits their head, and avoids a concussion due to its rounded corners. i would agree that the facts she needs a good office chair might be relevant to her character, but the fact she chooses an expensive Verksam but is willing to buy a cheap laundry basket, means nothing to me. As an editor, I would cut the bulk of all I transcribed there, except the opening paragraph, and don't think the irony was lost when i read she made some quick decisions but that i was made privy to every last one!
but hey, maybe you do mean you think this is globalization, and local colour. for me, it is lazy writing. :)
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And... I have a Hemnes bed! ha!
There is a certain universality to the experience of IKEA but this passage is really just descriptive and her choices say nothing about her as a character. I mean, yeah, sure, we've all been there and bought those things -- the word "improbable" usually applies most to lighting -- but the way he describes it tells me nothing about her.
I have a distinct set of opinions and perceptions and a series of thoughts that run through my head about things I bought there when I was in college, for my apartment in Manhattan... me and IKEA go way back.
The film Fight Club did all that needed to be done with IKEA.
I see these books being read on the el all the time. Haven't seen the film yet. Maybe I get a pass... I have a dragon tattoo. (Technically it's an ourobouros but I don't bother to explain when people say, "Nice dragon tat.")
Maureen wrote: "patrick: i'm not sure that a trip to mcdonald's to illustrate an aspect of character is the same as the kind of stuff i find frustrating about this book. at one point, for example, a police officer..."I do agree with all your points. While reading Dragon Tattoo, I'd skim past all the endless descriptions and just carry on when it finished.
I'm about half way through the first book and have to say while reading it it's a nice little page turner, but after a bit I get tired of reading and put it down. Then I have to make myself pick it up again. I think this is a personal issue and not anything to do with the writing. I was worried about all the coffee references but they turned out not so many. The thing I'm finding annoying is names. I had this issue reading The Idiot. Everyone calls everyone something different and bounce back and forth between first name and last name. I'm just hoping to be entertained for the summer. No other expectations.
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I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO DESIRE TO READ THESE BOOKS.
Does that make me weird?
;)
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Very funny! I'm also a fan of the books. I just wish they were edited down abit.
I'm about 100 pages into Girl who Played with Fire and it definitely needs an editor. Stuff like - and I'm para-phrasing:"Lisbeth got up, went for a shower, went for breakfast, went shopping and bought a XTV-122 computer with 40404040 hard drive and 90202 giga-watsits then went home, had a shower, smoked some cigarettes, had a sandwich, made a cup of coffee, thought about something for a little while, had a bath, sent some e-mails, smoked a cigarette, had another bath, had a sandwich, went online then went to bed"
It's absurd, tedious and most of all - not remotely fucking interesting. I am beginning to think Larsson had a mania for lists. And what's all that shit about mathematics? What a turn off!
Yet, there's something in the book that makes me keep reading. I actually think Lisbeth Salander is a great cartoon character and I enjoyed the film... will probably read the other book and watch the other films then do some soul-searching.
I'm about 80% done with the last book The Girl who kicked the hornets nest. the three books are roughly 1800 pages that could have been edited down to a great 700 pager. I find I like Lisbeth and Miekiel alot. By the end of book two you will have to get book three. I cant imagione how he's going to tie up allthe loose ends with less than 100 pages to go. I'm difinitely a fan but it was tedious reading.
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The math part wasn't my favorite, but it gave me some insight into Lisbeth, which is why I think it works in the novel. But yeah, that list stuff--like the excerpt Mo posted above about Salander's shopping trip--gets old.
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http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1568346/
Chris wrote: "I understand Hollywood wants to make their own film version(s)--I wonder if they'd be any good. Casting would be everything. I predict Peter Sarsgaard will be Blomkvist, but it's Lisbeth Salander..."I enjoyed the film. Girl Who Played with Fire is released her next month and the last one in November. Then it's Hollywood's turn. Daniel Craig would make a great Blomkvist. Noomi Rapace, who plays Lisbeth in the Swedish movie is superb. She really gets the character.
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It was ok. I'm not usually squeamish and I'm less PC than almost anyone I know, but the misogyny did bother me.
I saw the movie of The Girl Who Kicked The Hornet's Nest the other night and quite enjoyed it. I always liked the character of Lisbeth Salander, especially in the movies. Noomi Rapace nails the sexiness and aggressiveness of the character and reigns in some of the cartoon excesses dreamed up by Larsson. Who, let's face it, was probably a better journalist than a writer. But within all the crap prose, endless list making, ludicrous plot detours and subplots, at heart, is this really fresh character and that's what millions have connected to. It's a shame she's probably only ever going to be a great character in a crummy series - although i did like the murder mystery of The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo. Quite why it needed to become fixed on her backstory is something we'll never probably know. It would have been more fun to write stand alone mysteries that open the characters and their pasts rather than make them central. I dunno, that's just my idea.
I have heard the last book is the silliest and the worst out of the three. The movie was alright though. Especially when at the end it becomes a slasher-like stalk and kill scene only for the wee girl to turn the tables on her freaky as fuck half-brother. I only read the first two books but will read the last one very soon.
I really shouldn't, but I can't help myself... Here are my thoughts:I read Menn som hater kvinner (men who hate women) by Stieg Larsson, having failed to realise that this was The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo that so many people had been raving about (and which I had no desire to read). Who the hell thought of that translation for the title? Anyway, I hated it. And to all of those of you who think perhaps the translation didn't do it justice, please don't blame the translator (except for the title, you can blame the translator for that). It was no good in it's original language.
I also absolutely hate the characters, particularly Lisbeth Salander. The thing about her that irks me is that she is so obviously created by a man. Only a bloke could have create a woman that is so far fetched. I don't think she's an odd character, I just think she's very poorly constructed as a character. In fact, I really like the fact that Martyn described her as a good cartoon character. I would have to agree. I also think the other characters are weak, there are lots of undeveloped story lines and just an awful lot of drivel. It didn't even make me want to turn the pages, I struggled through the whole thing.
Needless to say I won't bother with the rest of them... Life's too short!
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I've had absolutely no desire to read this trilogy. And I've continually been happy with that decision.
Kerry wrote: "Maren, I read somewhere that the choice to name the American version The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo was not supposed to be an actual translation of the Swedish title, but some kind of distillation..."That's interesting. I still think it's a poor choice, seeing as when I read it, I didn't think of Lisbeth Salander as the main character, I perceived what's his face to be the real protagonist and I felt that the story was centred around the theme (men who hate women) rather than the silly goth chick. Perhaps the translation has changed the focus of the book. Not that I can be bothered to read the translation. Reading it once was more than enough. However, my desire to learn lots more languages so that I can read original books rather than translations is increased.
She's the main character without being the main character, sorta, and she's more interesting that way. Comparable to Hannibal Lecter in "Red Dragon" or "Silence of the Lambs". She's more prominent in the next two books, and (while I enjoyed them), they're not as good as the first.
fiction files redux
Books mentioned in this topic
The Girl Who Kicked the Hornet's Nest (other topics)The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo (other topics)
The Girl Who Played with Fire (other topics)
The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo (other topics)
I'd been meaning to read the three books for a while...they are: The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo, The Girl Who Played With Fire and The Girl Who Kicked The Hornets' Nest. I prefer their Swedish original titles...like Men Who Hate Women (instead of Dragon Tattoo) or The Air Castle That Blew Up (Hornets' Nest)
I've finished the first book and a couple of weeks ago saw the movie version. I do think they've been slightly over-hyped somewhat...but they have interesting ideas and themes going on...and Larsson was clearly a feminist and hated fascists. It seems the author wanted to get some things off his chest about Swedish history and sexual politics and wrap them around genre fiction.
I read in an interview with Larsson's widow in The Guardian last week and she said the English language translations are very poor indeed. I can see what she's talking about...there were some moments of such bad sentences...it made me mutter the horrific words, "reads like Dan Brown." And to some extent it does...will Larsson be turning in his grave?
The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo features an interesting variation on the femme fatale and private detective...by combining them. Lisbeth Salander is a right weirdo, but her back story and history seems to be the "real story" and not the investigative journalism parts and murder mystery.
The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo features a computer hacker and journalist teaming up to find the killer of an old industralist's niece. She simply vanished one day into thin air. What Salander and Blomkvist discover is a serial killer and a twist to the tale.
On the whole, I enjoyed it...but like I said, feel it's been over-hyped a fair bit. I am going to start the second book tomorrow.
Anybody else read the books?