The Mariachi’s discussion

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message 1: by Kim, group moderator (last edited Mar 03, 2010 06:18PM) (new)

Kim | 350 comments Mod
Discuss the plot, themes, metaphors, etc here


message 2: by Adam, The Baggage Handler (new)

Adam | 183 comments Mod
Alright, this is going to be the only quote I am gonna ask you to analyze. When I remember we had a two discussion on this quote, which kind of ruined it for me. However, re-reading the novel and the quote made me realize the power of this quote. The quote is:

"Ralph wept for the end of innocence, the darkness of man’s heart, and the fall through the air of a true, wise friend called Piggy."

Based on the actions that took place over the course of the novel, what does the quote mean to the reader at the end of the novel. Also in general, is the end of innocence or realizing mans true nature worth weeping over or is it something we all come to realize sooner or later?


message 3: by Kim, group moderator (new)

Kim | 350 comments Mod
I think Ralph crying for innocence is because of the Navy guy that comes to save them. He realizes that they're being rescued and he has to go home. His innocent adult-less existence on the island is over. He has to go and face reality and the real world, where there are consequences for your actions. I think also being on the island and seeing and being part of the things he was part of, he realizes that there is good and evil in all of us. He definitely discovered evil earlier than most kids do, so I think it's unquestionably something worth weeping over. When you're a kid you know that some people are always nice and that someone are mean, but it's not until you're an adult that you grasp how truly evil people can be. As an adult you see that people are capable of killing each other, starting wars, stealing from the needy - the list goes on and on. Ralph learned that people can be this cruel way too early in life. When you're older and you learn it, it seems like it’s a gradual lesson, one that you slowly realize over time. Ralph I think got hit with these lessons head on which will most likely affect him for the rest of his life.


message 4: by Todd (new)

Todd | 89 comments I think that that quote references basically all of Ralph's reflections throughout the book in a nutshell. By seeing what he sees, we witness a group of young boys move from innocence (protected by societal norms and routine) to realizing the true evil that can exist in some people. In most people this takes years, so cramming it into a few weeks on an island expectantly takes a toll on him. The portion about the darkness of man's heart is important because it highlights the fact that such darkness does exist in our world, and it is the thin line of society and rules that we as a people have established that keep us from descending into savagery. Piggy's death personifies this as he is deliberately and purposely killed by Roger, a character whom before had acted and behaved pretty much similarly to all the other boys.

I would imagine that realizing man's true nature and the end of innocence would be things to weep over. By this I mean not only that people in this world can be evil, but actually downright savage and almost inhumane when it comes to their survival. For example, the movie Children of Men portrays Britain as the last "civilized" nation as the world descends into chaos as women fail to become pregnant. It shows in terrible detail what we as a people will do in order to survive. I would call this man's true nature, for we are animals just like any other living things on the earth and we have visceral animal instincts that will lead us to do terrible things to survive. I don't think that all men would turn to killing and savagery in return for power and respect such as Jack does, but I think that realizing that we all have the potential to if the circumstances are right is something to be concerned about.


message 5: by Adam, The Baggage Handler (new)

Adam | 183 comments Mod
I'd like to link this to a point Todd bought up in another board. He mentioned why reading it in high school is so important because we are coming of age in our own way. were not stranded on an island killing people, but we are realizing the good and evil in people. People cry all the time in high school, when they finally see how mean or the true side of people and how they really work. In elementary school when everyone is in a sense naive and unaware of the world, you got invited to birthday parties, everyone ate lunch together, there was no cliques, just a really big group of friends and you all played kickball together. when you got to high school and people showed their true colors, you often weep for the friends you may have lost. Not necessarily through death (in the sense of ralph weeping for piggy's death), but we often get ourselves upset when our old friends join other cliques or stop being our friends because they may be deemed cooler or to protect their image. i think we finally in that situation see peoples true colors and see how cruel some people can be and weep for the end of that time, where everything seemed tranquil and peaceful.


message 6: by Kim, group moderator (new)

Kim | 350 comments Mod
Adam really good point - What do you think the boys were like once they were rescued and off the island? Think about what the knowledge they gained on that island's done to them -- If you look at our own lives - when we learned that people weren't so nice and that they could be cruel we all built a little wall up around our feelings and made it a bit harder for people to get in. We became more guarded with our feelings. I always wondered what happened with the boys once rescued, especially Jack. How do you go from one extreme and free yourself from all the restrictions of society, and then to the other and be forced to follow rules and society again?


message 7: by Adam, The Baggage Handler (new)

Adam | 183 comments Mod
That's a really good question kim. I would love if there was (or maybe there is) a sequel in the sense of your pride and prejudice sequels. where maybe 10-15 years down the road, we see what the survivors of the island are up to. I'd actually like to see what happened to Ralph, as I think his transformation was the most drastic from the start to the end of the novel.


message 8: by Kim, group moderator (new)

Kim | 350 comments Mod
The sequel to lord of the flies is lost. HA-HA


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