The Plantagenets discussion
Catherine Valoid/Owain Tudor
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I know I'm not reading this book, but for history's sake I'm curious to hear the answers.
I am not a technical expert, but am anxious to know the name of the book. Mary Lou
Mod
Ah, and I thought it was some history/sci-fi mix, like The Plantagenet Queen of Pluto!
Personal maids always knew these things -- they were in and out as their duties took them. The concept of privacy was invented later.As I understand it.
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She would know :)
1. Henry VI's biographer R.A. Griffiths notes that contemporaries did not question the legitimacy of the marriage, while H.T Evans notes that during the Privy Council proceedings against Owen after Katherine's death, no one suggested that he and Katherine had had illicit relations. Henry VI made his younger half-brothers Jasper and Edmund earls, which suggests that he too believed that they were the legitimate offspring of Owen and Katherine. I think Owen Tudor's pre-execution sally that his executioners were about to cut off the head that used to lie on Queen Catherine's lap also indicates that there was a valid marriage--it would be a rather ungallant remark to make if he was speaking of the queen as his mistress instead of as his wife.2. I doubt that Katherine would have taken the risk of sleeping regularly with Owen before they married, as an out-of-wedlock pregnancy would have given Henry VI's uncles an excuse to keep her son from her and might have led to punitive measures against her. Like Joy said, she would have needed the help of her attendants to facilitate regular illicit meetings.
3. Seems rather unlikely. I don't know much about Joan of Arc's last days, but I think her keepers would have made it difficult for Katherine to gain access to her. And it would have been rather stupid for Katherine to be consorting with someone accused of witchcraft.
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And I thought only Carolly Erickson wrote *whimsey*.
Eek! Was it Humphrey, Duke of Gloucester? Usually he gets to be the bad guy in stories about Katherine and Owen, until he gets to be the good guy in stories about Margaret of Anjou. :)Though actually, now that I look at my one book on Joan of Arc, she did claim that an English lord tried to rape her in prison when she put on women's clothes and that she resumed wearing men's clothes as a result.
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It will pain me greatly to have to reread some of it, but I'll dig the book out of the recycle bin and look it up for you :)
Humphrey was the onion breathed bad guy in most of the book though. I hate those stinky breathed methods of reinforcing what a bad guy the baddie is. Reminds of of........
**sits on hands to keep them off the keyboard***
It was definitely Warwick who raped Joan in the book. Humphrey remained in England while Catherine accompanied Henry to France for his coronation.
OK, gotcha!Just for once I'd like to see a villain with sweet-smelling breath.
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Lauren, thanks for saving me.
Now, what does Susan think about Owain and Katherine meeting as youngsters and in their teens they have a one night stand?
Or the major WTF moment in the book when Isabeau sets up a *love tent* during the marriage negotiations so Catherine and Henry can *do it*?
I still think tops with me (let's see what Lauren says) is how Catherine and Owain ended up getting married. Oh. My. God.
Warwick wouldn't soil his hands on a "crazy wench". Do I even want to know what book this is?
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Nope. Anyone really want to know just PM me.
Misfit wrote: "Now, what does Susan think about Owain and Katherine meeting as youngsters and in their teens they have a one night stand? Or the major WTF moment in the book when Isabeau sets up a *love tent* during the marriage negotiations so Catherine and Henry can *do it*?
I still think tops with me (let's see what Lauren says) is how Catherine and Owain ended up getting married. Oh. My. God..
..."
LOVE SHACK! But now you've got me curious about how Catherine and Owain end up getting married!
Mod
Oh yes, love shack is a very apt way to put it.
I'll send you a PM since it comes from the very very end.
I feel the need to play the B-52s now. LOL
[i:] Lauren wrote: "It was definitely Warwick who raped Joan in the book. Humphrey remained in England while Catherine accompanied Henry to France for his coronation." Lauren, thanks for saving me.
Now, what does Susan think about Owain and Katherine meeting as youngsters and in their teens they have a one night stand?
Or the major WTF moment in the book when Isabeau sets up a *love tent* during the marriage negotiations so Catherine and Henry can *do it*?
I still think tops with me (let's see what Lauren says) is how Catherine and Owain ended up getting married. Oh. My. God. [/i:]
*Spoiler Alert*
Misfit, there were definitely 4 OMG moments for me:
(1) The love shack - I found it so implausible as to almost make me want to put the book down.
(2) Owain and Catherine's teenage romance came in a close second for implausibility.
(3) Joan of Arc - both Catherine's views of Joan of Arc and her meeting Joan in prison/bringing her the dress.
(4) How Catherine and Owain end up getting married - that seemed kind of ridiculous but not *quite* as implausible as the love shack.
Mod
You know, I probably wouldn't have minded so much but 1) she didn't suck me into the story and I frankly didn't care and 2) if you're going to make this stuff up please say in your notes that you made it up as no one really knows for sure.
Even Carolly Erickson fessed up to *whimsey*.
That's my problem with Philippa Gregory a lot of the time; she doesnt fess up to anything, and insists she's a historian. NO SHE ISN'T!ETA: She's the "Tudor expert" for Time Team? Good lord.
As far as I know Catherine was never in France after Henry V's death so, unless she used Astral travel, she could not have helped Jeanne. Bedford's wife, Anne of Burgundy, *might* have done.I have come across occasional vague references to Warwick (this is Richard Beauchamp we are talking about in case anyone is confused) abusing or being harsh with Jeanne but never an actual *source* and what 'abusing' or 'being harsh' means in this context is wide open to interpretation. Warwick is an enigma to me, character wise. He was a soldier, a hard man, and is supposed to have flogged Henry VI when he was the king's governor. But this latter would be pretty normal in those days, and Beauchamp also has a reputation as a chivalrous knight. (He is the only medieval English noble I can think of who wrote a love poem to his wife!)
As to Isabeau and the 'love shack' Isabeau is invariably presented as a totally debauched woman. Whether she was in real life, frankly I don't know enough French history. She apparently had an affair with her husband's brother and was also a pretty ruthless political operator. Whether we can deduce from this that she would defy all rules of contemporary morality and convention and *publicly* allow her daughter to have sex before marriage (albeit with a chosen husband) I take leave to doubt. But in fiction we are encouraged to believe *anything* about Queen Isabeau - you can make up what you like about her. Could make a funny novel actually - surprised Alan Savage hasn't had a go, ideal territory for him.People have complained about the treatment novelists have dished out to Elizabeth Woodville and Margaret of Anjou, but they are treated like the Virgin Mary compared to Isabeau of Bavaria!
Brian wrote: "As far as I know Catherine was never in France after Henry V's death so, unless she used Astral travel, she could not have helped Jeanne. Bedford's wife, Anne of Burgundy, *might* have done.I hav..."
Griffiths says that Catherine seems to have been in Rouen with little Henry VI and that some of her servants were over in France in February 1431.
I found this essay on Isabeau of Bavaria. Unfortunately, one can't read it past the first page without paying:http://www.jstor.org/pss/3679229
It'd be interesting to see a biography of her.
Obliged for the Griffiths reference, Susan. It surprises me, but then again history throws these surprises all the time.It would indeed be interesting to read the facts about Isabeau, but I suspect any book out there is likely to be in French. It may well also be hostile as I think the French tend to think of Isabeau as a traitor - she is not part of the positive side of their national story.
Susanna wrote: "That's my problem with Philippa Gregory a lot of the time; she doesnt fess up to anything, and insists she's a historian. NO SHE ISN'T!ETA: She's the "Tudor expert" for Time Team? Good lord."
The History Channel used to show the Time Team and I LOVED watching it! They stopped showing it a few years ago and I have no way to watch now. :(
I also love Time Team.
I just received today THE KING'S GRACE by Anne Easter Smith. I have not read any books about Grace Plantagenet. Looking forward to starting this one.
There was also a US Time Team this last year (from Oregon PBS, I think), which I liked. Still really like the British one best, though.
Maybe I should start emailing the History Channel all the time asking them to bring it back... :)
IF YOU THINK YOU KNOW THE BOOK AND DON'T WANT TO BE SPOILED PLEASE DON'T READ FURTHER.
1. Are we fairly certain that Catherine and Owain (Owen) were married?
2. Is is possible that they were sleeping together regularly before their marriage and no one found out about it?
3. Is it possible she could have had contact with Joan of Arc while she was with the English court at Rouen as well as could have visited Joan in her prison cell?